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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kull
However, I 'd like to talk a little more about the mechanics of unit gifting. In the basic game, gifted units are teleported into the capital city of the receiving civ, yes? So that should serve as the baseline. Any variation from that will need to be agreed upon beforehand.
For example, here's the kind of "exploit" I'd like to avoid: CivA has a war going badly on his southern front. He has plenty of troops on the north border, but it will take several turns to get them to the south to stem the invasion. CivA has a bright idea and gives all his northern armies to trusted ally CivB, who immediately teleports them and gives them all back - neatly positioned near the Southern border.
I've never used the 3rd party tool that controls unit gifting (and so this may not be possible), but I'd almost prefer a rule that says if you give a unit, it transfers ownership in the EXACT location it currently occupies (which would eliminate teleporting altogether) |
Units gifted through the F3 (diplomacy screen, or in other words, via contacting the AI of a Civ) will arrive in the nearest city from the city it was given from.
I dislike the teleportation of units, therefore I usually try to disallow unit gifting in PBEM's. Think of the situation that in a WW2 scenario the axis powers completely control the English channel or the Atlantic, but still reinforcements arrive in France respectively England 
Since there allways seems to be a big request for unit gifting by most PBEM players, I prefer units can only be given when the two players have an MP-session, in which they will trade the units. In MP, the units stay where they are, they merely change owner. (So, that is basically what Kull suggests above)
I've only been playing PBEM's since a year, about half a dozen of them. Playing MP-sessions, to establish treaties the AI won't accept or exchange techs the AI is not willing to share, has been common in all of them (this was mainly before the advent of Yaroslav's CivDip, that basically does the same without the hassle of setting a time to do the swap).
If unit gifting is allowed, then please only via online MultiPlayer sessions. This is not a StarTrek scenario 
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:22
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If we agree with Kull that the basic game serves as the baseline then we have a question if city giving may be realized as an agreed conquering of a city.
I don't have a clear opinion: but maybe it could be allowed (also because a boundary between 'agreed' and 'unagreed' may be unclear in some special cases).
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:22
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It looks our opinions are close now...
I think we should quickly agree on rules that affect our game decisions. Later we can discuss a 48/72 hours limit, obligatory reports of some events (battles) and other changes.
I updated the proposed rules:
automated settlers are forbidden (voting is 4:0 now)
Map Making propositions are inserted from other posts
renaming cities is not forbidden but must be reported
added in Reports: In SoG, the turn-based Event messages are intended for everyone, although in a PBEM only the first player sees them - hence the requirement for white player to make them public.
added in Diplomacy: Any info may be offered during diplomatic talks (except restraints related to Map Making), but any info may be false.
unit giving have been edited
city giving have been edited
added: Turn procedure: Don't open the Demographics window (by both the F11 key or the menu). If you want to see the window content then do it in a separate game load that will not be used for gameplay.
please send objections if any; concentrate especially to unit giving, city giving; add a vote to map making
please pronounce also that you agree (if you have no objections)
Edit: city giving
Last edited by SlowThinker on 30-08-2003 at 23:40
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:22
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This is a 2nd edition of proposition of house rules. Of course any rule can be the subject of debate.
Sentences are compiled from this thread, Rah and Aussie rules in MP forum etc.
General Settings
King, Barbarian wrath Game speed
Will be debated later
There is now a 48 hour deadline. If you can't make it, post here, and we will undoubtedly give you some more time, if you have a good excuse. If you are late, expect your turn to have passed. Don't be shy to take your turn when the guy before you has not shown up in time.
After (or before) you do your turn try to send e-mail (or PM) to player(s) that play after you. Turn procedure
Don't open the Demographics window (by both the F11 key or the menu). If you want to see the window content then do it in a separate game load that will not be used for gameplay. Reloading
You can reload typos and similar mistakes ONLY under following conditions: | 1. | You can take back only 1 'action'. Action is | | | | a movement or another order to one unit | | | | rushbuild | | | | improvement sale | | 2. | You didn't intend to execute that action, you did it by mistake. | | 3. | The action cannot be taken back if ANY kind of new information is revealed by that action (new terrain is revealed, a new unit is detected, a formerly revealed square has changed (an irrigation is built on it, a foreign city has changed size etc.)...). | | 4. | You can NEVER take back fortuitous actions: combats, hut popping, tech stealing etc. | | 5. | You must correctly repeat all actions between the last save and the mistake that is taken back. The game cannot be reloaded if there is any fortuitous action (combat, hut popping, tech stealing etc.) among actions that are to be repeated (so it is suggested to save after combats, hut popping etc.). | Getting info from saves
Revealing the starting map is legal, because a player that has already played all civs in SP games has the same info at his disposal.
Reloading/opening savefiles of passed turns in order to get some last information or to find out a detailed info about events that went between your two turns (for example who killed your unit) is legal, but you must be cautious in order to avoid the AI moves with units of other human players and reveals them to you:
In MP mode (Main Menu / Multiplayer Game / load a saved multiplayer game) you can open ONLY files that were saved right before your turn (by your predecessor) or by yourself.
It is possible to open a .net game also in SP mode (Main Menu / Load a game - but you have to change the default .sav option to .net). In this case you can open also save, other than the save from the civ that directly precedes yours: you will go to your own civ (as chosen) but since its not your turn, you will not be able to move any of your units. The player is nothing more than a bystander/onlooker. Reports
Players are not obligated to report anything about a course of player's turn. But things that would cause an international incident in a SP game can be accomplished only under war. War can be declared both privately (by e-mail) or publicly (in this thread).
So if your unit or city dissapears you will know that the originator is one of civs you are in a war with. In SoG scenario, the turn-based Event messages are intended for everyone, although in a PBEM only the first player sees them - hence the requirement for white player to make them public.
Diplomacy Diplomacy can be managed both privately (by e-mail, PM...) or publicly (in this thread).
All diplomatic arrangements (alliances, tech, unit, gold, city trading, trade agreements = to allow caravans to be delivered etc.) are allowed, but any agreements can be broken when advantageous (unlike barters) .
Any info may be offered during diplomatic talks (except restraints related to Map Making), but any info may be false.
Contact: No diplomacy until after the first physical unit contact between two civs. (But players are allowed to publicly declare their progress on the thread.)
Map making:
Slowthinker's proposition (3 votes: ST, germ, LF)
No map sharing until both civs have discovered the 'Map Making' tech, no use of map coordinates for specifying localities on the map, areas and squares can be determined using words only (for example: about 10 squares south-east from Babylon). Distances cannot be expressed punctualy: only numbers 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80 ... ('about 2', 'about 5'...) may be used.
Coordinates may be used for determining boundaries only.
Kull's proposition (1 vote: Kull)
A small narrowly defined gif showing a cool battle or a proposed border is totally acceptable as far as I'm concerned. Barters and gifts are allowed using several methods: built-in Civ2 diplomacy (F3key), online (MP) play, Yaroslav's utility, exchanging map screenshots etc. But there are some restrictions:
Description of allowed ways for implementing barters/gifts: | | Maps | online (multiplayer) connection, AI diplomacy (F3 key), screenshots, Yaroslav's Tool (the official name is Civ2 PBEM Diplomacy Utility)
see restraints related to Map Making | | Techs | online connection, AI diplomacy, Yaroslav's Tool (current version don't count with GL, so you have to pass the given tech also to the owner of the GL some way) | | Gold | online connection, AI diplomacy, Yaroslav's Tool | Units
please check it out | online connection (warning: units are homed to the nearest city of the recipient);
obtained commodity caravans must not be delivered (they may be used only for wonder building); food caravans are OK)
A given unit must not move (nor accomplish any other order) in the turn when given.
notes: the current version of Yaroslav's Tool don't allow unit giving, but the new version will;
AI diplomacy is forbidden because units are teleported | Cities
please check it out | only agreed capture (warning: 1 citizen and some improvements may be lost);
wonder trading is forbidden (you cannot pass a city with a wonder even by agreed capture) | | | | Warning: AI diplomacy can bring problems - for example some unwanted info about opponent's civ may be revealed.
Both gifts and barters and way of their implementation must be agreed by both sides before the realization. |
Barters cannot be broken or crooked (unlike arrangements). For example if you agree on exchanging map screenshots then you cannot refuse to send your map after you get the opponent's one. Also the screenshot must be true (but you can blacken some areas - if you announce it). | Diplomatic contact with AI is forbidden. You may never initiate a contact and you must always refuse all diplomatic contact with other civilization (when you play your turn) UNLESS you will do something you and the human leader of that civ have agreed to.
Tricks and ploys Not allowed: black clicking
(1. Right click on black area - reveals continent number - try not to look at that small numeral in the status window that represents the continent number.
2. Double click on revealed area - reveals cities (terrain help is not shown on a city) - don't double click in unknown areas
3. Left click on black or revealed area - reveals cities (map is not centered on a city) - center map by the right click only)
unsinkable boats and non-crashing aircraft
(this is done by just moving your boat/craft 1 less space than its available movement and pressing Wait followed by using the End turn keyboard shortcut)
caravan re-homing
(unlike normal units you cannot hit the 'h' key to change the home of a caravan - however the 'support from this city' option is available from within the city screen. This way it is possible to build caravans in small cities and to rehome them to large ones.)
stealing shields and immediate tech use
(The priciple resides in clicking on units in the window of supported units when Civ2 shows a city where an improvement or a non-combat unit was built:
Suppose you have several cities close to one another. If you have all units stationed in these cities hosted by the first of which (in establishing sequence), maybe you can save the maintainance shields for them by re-host units while processing cities. Here's a demonstration. You have 3 cities A B C, in which A is your first city. All of your units in cities B and C are hosted by A. You rush build non-military units or buildings in B and C so that at the beginning of the next turn you'll be sent to city screens of B and C. While in city screens, you re-host units inside cities to B and C, respectively. Since B and C are processed before A, you save the maintainance shields for those units. You then move units in B and C back to A and re-host them before moving back, so that you can save again the next turn.
Use of this trick to produce wonders, improvements and units in the same turn as discovering the requisite tech is also disallowed.)
renaming cities must be reported
automated settlers (to irrigate with no adjacent water}
blatant cheats
(revealing the map through the cheat menu, editing stats in rules.txt, reloading hut and combat outcomes, cheat-o-matic (this is a tsr that allows the game parameters to be changed on the fly while the game is running.) etc.),
Allowed: city bribing
unit bribing
incremental buying
pre-worked settlers
food caravans (any use is allowed (except rehoming))
ship chaining (transfer cargo from ship to ship in 1 turn)
diplo-guiding (using a diplomat or spy (or other unit that ignores ZOC) to lead other units through an enemy's zones of control.)
reading 'near city' notes (to use 'near city XX' notes in a city window to locate unknown cities)
If you break a rule by a mistake nothing horrible happens. But you have to announce it and warn other players.
Last edited by SlowThinker on 31-08-2003 at 04:48
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:22
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I perceived a unit could move twice in a turn when given. So I added this sentence in rules:
A given unit must not move (nor accomplish any other order) in the turn when given.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:22
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.
 Attachment: bab_b3090.net
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:22
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Harharu's reigh, that has lasted for 47 years has been most prosperous. Many cities have grown beyond the wildest expectations, birth rates have been unprecedented. No less then seven cities have reached popolation sizes that equal the capital Nineveh. Investments in infrastructure and buildings have been most effectfull and prosperous. The Assyrian people mourned for a full moon when the news of Harharu's death was proclamed throughout the Empire.
His death had come at a most incovinient moment, as far as deaths ever come at the right time and place. Assyria found itself at a precarious situation. Other Empires had emerged at its borders, and many foreign scouts and warriors roamed its lands. As Harharu's only son had passed away at a young age, his many grandsons and nephews, descendents of Harharu's brother Tudiya, claimed the throne of Assyria.
The clans from the north and west, governed by Tudiya and his sons for many suns now, frontier cities to the Hatte empire and living with Hatte troops in their surroundings in a more or less permanent way, soon gained the upper hand over the clans of the south and east, who had been living in tranquility and wealth with their Babylonian and Persian neighbours, who's appearance was nothing more then a faint myth from tales long ago.
When the news arrived in Nineveh of the founding of Tarsus by Hatte settlers, right on the river Seyhun that run along Ishkandaroun's city limits, a power struggle erupted among the many nobles at the Royal Court.
It was Harharu's eldest grandson, Mandaru, who was crowned King of Assyria, seven moons after Harharu's death. Mandaru vowed to continue on the path of wealth and prosperity his father and father's father's had taken, yet he acknoledged the threat the Hatte were posing to Assyria. So it was Mandaru who was to be the cental figure among the people of Assyria could rally for the times to come.
Aware of the devide that was growing in his empire, Mandaru issued two distinct orders. The southern tribes received Royal funds for their economic and scientific projects, while the northern tribes were appeased by stern action that was to be taken against the Hatte pirates that caused so much trouble to them.
War
Assyrian armed forces entered the settlement of Tarsus, and razed the place to the ground.
Gold and secret documents were taken as booty to Nineveh by the victors.
In the Assyrian desert, Hatte scouts were ambushed and butchered to the last men.
A few Assyrian soldiers twisted their wrists while beheading their captives.
Assyrian troops, of various formations, have been ordered to intercept and destroy the Hatte intruders currently roaming the Assyrian countryside. Scouts have been send along the river banks of the Seyhun river to intercept any auxilary forces to the Hatte settlers that so foolishly choose to defy the Assyrian borders. Frontier cities have received extensive funding for militairy infrastructure, and the construction of a militairy training camp has been ordered at an undisclosed location.
Assyria will counter the Hatte intrusion of Assyrian lands with all means at its disposal.
other news
The Assyrain army announced the capture and enslavement of yet another Barbarian group of Warriors.
to Egypt
Is there any reason why Egypt has ventured into Assyria with a fully armed Chariot? From the archive stored in the Palace of Nineveh, clay tablets have been retreived that speak clearly on matters of Egyptian and Assyrian spheres of influence. You can expect a messanger from Assyria via the normal (PM) diplomatic channels.
Attachment: assyria_b3090.net
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:22
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The Minoan people are peaceful sailors and fishers, but the sneak attack against the Hittite city of Tarsus has been considered shocking by almost anyone here.
So have the words of the treacherous Assyrian leader mentioning other heads to cut.
Our help has been required by our quiet neighbours, the Hittites, and we have decided to ally with them in order to repel this unprovoked aggression.
Nevertheless, we strongly hope that the peaceloving words of the Egyptian leader will be heard and that a peace treaty will be signed very soon ... and not broken afterwards.
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tanelorn
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of the deep blue sea
Jun 2001
time: 07:22
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I was well within the limmits of the no fixed border agreement you proposed and insisted in. When it fits you you keep it, when it doesn't, you twist it to your needs? You were contradicting your self by asking a border line. I had proposed a fixed borderline in the area and it was you who rejected it, remember?
As for Seyhan, where did you include the river itself? You only said downstream, that is vague at least.
THERE WAS NO MENTION OF CASUS BELI WHATSOEVER.
I acted peacefully & came unarmed. I trusted you. Never again.
It is funny how you think it is ok for you to send your scouts into other people's lands with impunity, and start threatening once theirs even get close to your lands. That is a fact, Mandaru, hypocrit.
Even if there was a hint of contention in Cilicia, why did you attack my scouts in the middle of the arabian desert, miles from any lands you claim as yours? You own the desert too? Probably because you had swordsmen roaming about...
You are the kind of coward that attacks weak and unprotected non-beligerents.
Mandaru, you are a disgrace to good old Harharu, you bring shame to your dynasty. Harharu ought to have slapped some sense into you, boy.
Might doesn't make right.
Thank you, Minoa for your kind words and assistance.
Egypt, your kind efforts are trully appreciated.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by La Fayette
The Minoan people are peaceful sailors and fishers, but the sneak attack against the Hittite city of Tarsus has been considered shocking by almost anyone here.
So have the words of the treacherous Assyrian leader mentioning other heads to cut.
Our help has been required by our quiet neighbours, the Hittites, and we have decided to ally with them in order to repel this unprovoked aggression.
Nevertheless, we strongly hope that the peaceloving words of the Egyptian leader will be heard and that a peace treaty will be signed very soon ... and not broken afterwards. |
Hunter-gatherers around the Seyhun basin speak of foreign armies knitting their fate with those of the Hatte pirates. It is romoured these people travel the great lake in the west. Assyrian armed forces in the northwest and all along the shores of the great lake have been instructed to guard their rear to the lakeside as well.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by tanelorn
As for Seyhan, where did you include the river itself? You only said downstream, that is vague at least.
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Assyria apologizes if the concept of 'up' and 'down' has proven to be to complicated to grasp for the Hatte. Your ignorance must be immeasurable. The fate of the Hatte people doesn't look too bright considering this, and the settlers of Tarsus can attest to this.
As for borders: if the Hatte assume Assyria will allow for foreign forces to enter and stay within city-limits of Assyrian settlements, eat there food, exploit their resources and deprive the citizens to work the fields as they choose, they are mistaken, as they have now found out the hard way.
Assyrian diplomats have traveled to Egypt, and met Egyptian diplomats who will attempt to broker an agreement with the Hatte.
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30-08-2003 22:58
This is a 2nd version. You missed the first one. 
Do you plan to cheat?
I don't know what to do now. I don't know if you and Tanelorn are willing to learn the rules (yes?-no?). I agree with Kull we cannot force rules that weren't agreed in the beginning...
Another Civ2 stupidity. Rather than display the "move-per-unit" number listed under the "units" section of rules.xt, the civilopedia factors it by the road multiplier and then divides by three. In this case that would be (4x4)/3 = 5.33 (which is then rounded down for display in the civilopedia). Idiocy. 
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