07-09-2003 14:38									#721
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel The Great King of Persia, having heard of turmoils not too far of his borders is very concerned. Scouts are ordered to go further west than ever before to contact the rumoured Hittites and get an idea of what things are like.

The Persian King is greatly mistaken: the ruins of Tarsus lay practically on the other side of the world for Persia, and any scouts send there will be old men once they reach their destination. The same goes for the battles that rage in the Assyrian desert, and Hittite troops will be pushed back faster than Persian forces could possibly advance.

Assyria cannot allow for Persian troops to travel through Assyrian lands in their quest for contact with our enemy. Persia should be carefull in the execution of its plans to travel west, as they may venture in the Assyrian heartland. We remind Persia of agreements reached long ago in the Zagros mountains.

	07-09-2003 17:14									#722
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Assyrian envoy returns to Memphis.

	07-09-2003 17:52									#723
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Persian troops are staying north of Lake Urmia. That was non-Assyrian the last time we talked.

	07-09-2003 19:05									#724
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North of Lake Urmia is

But you talked of moving west

Have you met the Barbs that **** in the woods allready?
May I advice you (for the health of your soldiers) to leave the buggers alone? I lost quite a few good troops on them, so my guess is they will be as tough as the infamous townsmen of the Tigris-tributuary.

	07-09-2003 22:25									#725
	Peace Agreement Near Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Pharoah is pleased to announce that the Terms of his Proposed Settlement are agreeable to his brothers in both Hattusas and Nineveh. A Final Agreement to include Borders, Spheres of Influence, and the Rights of Scouts may take a bit longer to hammer out, but based on this initial agreement, both sides are requested to cease hostilities immediately.

Pharoah would like to caution all his brothers that the issue of "land claims" - especially in areas as yet unsettled - appears likely to spark future conflict. Pharoah proposes as a general rule that all nations recognize the two distinct concepts of the "Core Nation" (a ring of 8 - 12 hexes extending outward from the capital city) and "Spheres of Influence" (an adjacent zone into which the core nation is likely to expand at some point in the future.) All activities within the Core Nation are under the complete control of the owning civilization, and incursions here may rightly be considered a matter of the highest national security. A civilization that fails to respect another's "Core Nation" will receive scant sympathy if they find themselves on the wrong end of a sword - and are likely to find the whole world allied against them.

Inside the Sphere of Influence, however, issues are far more flexible. In many instances, two or more civilizations will claim the same area. In these cases, Pharoah proposes that negotiation always be the first option, and that the result of this does not have to be a win-lose proposition. He fully expects there will be occasions where cities from two or more civilizations occupy the same area - coastlines in particular.

As an example of these concepts, should any nation decide to establish a city in the Nile Delta, they can expect Pharoah to add it to his empire - sooner or later. Should they instead found a city inside Canaan, Pharoah would not be pleased, but outright warfare would not be his first option.

My brothers are also encouraged to work with one another in support of the "Right of Scouts" - a pathway of clearly defined hexes that passes through an empire or an escort agreement - that others may use to reach the civilizations which lie at the ends of the earth or to explore the vast deserts of the southeast and the southwest. All travel through a Core Nation is totally at the discretion of the owning civ, but pathways through a Sphere of Influence should never be forbidden.

Given the reality that our empires are expanding rapidly, and bumping into one another at many places, Pharoah would offer one final proposal - that we agree to use mapgifs to clarify our discussions!! Pharoah agrees that the concept of waiting until we have discovered Mapmaking sounds nice, but frankly he believes that this prohibition should ONLY involve exchanges that permanently reveal territory AS PART OF THE MAP EXCHANGE FEATURE, and not the use of mapgifs to eliminate confusion and enhance diplomacy.

For Phase II of the Peace Talks, Pharoah now makes the following proposal to the Assyrian and Hittite emissaries:

1) Submit to him mapgifs that define your respective claims over the Sphere of Influence in question, and Pharoah will use these to help broker an agreement between you. If you agree, he will also serve as binding arbitrator. Should both parties prefer that another nation take on this role, Pharoah will happily step aside.

2) Think about the location of a reasonable "Right of Scouts" pathway or escort agreement that will allow Assyria to pass westward toward Greece and Hatti to travel east and south to the Great Desert.

3) The Assyrian emissary will present a timetable for when the Gold and Slaves from Tarsus shall be returned to his Brother in Hattusas.

Attachment: egypt_b3090.net
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	08-09-2003 00:45									#726
	Assyrian envoy dispatched Suffering from ads?

In reply to Kull's post:

I tend to fully agree with you, and to a large extend Assyria has dealt with the world around him in a remarkably similar way as you describe.

I also agree on your proposal regarding the (restricted) use of maps.

Whether or not the Core Nation will be defined as a radius around the capitol or not is disputable. Furthermore, as our Empires will grow, dense centres might develop at far away places from the Capitol, and I wouldn't regard a cluster of three cities merely as a Sphere of influence.

My guess would also be that Minos will not be happy if non of his colonies can be viewed as Core-land .

But all this surely does not dismisses your notion, and it will prove to be a very workable concept. :b

[disclaimer] This is not a ticket for a free ride in Assyria or its spheres of influence [/disclaimer]

	08-09-2003 02:59									#727
	Re: Assyrian envoy dispatched Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by germanos My guess would also be that Minos will not be happy if non of his colonies can be viewed as Core-land .

Minos lives a hard life sailing in bad weather and fishing what is left by the Gods.
You can bet that Minos is specially unhappy when wicked rules and bad habits (such as swapping maps between people who haven't the slightest idea what a map can be, or the new proposal of pathways that Minos would call 'spying superhighways') make it easy for them to travel at full speed on their light chariots and talk with one another and agree upon this and that.

	08-09-2003 08:47									#728
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I regret to say that I will resign from playing the Greeks. Good luck to all.

Thanks Paul. Sorry to be leaving this wonderful scenario.

	08-09-2003 11:02									#729
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Sorry to see you go Steve

Is there any possibility you would reconsider?

	08-09-2003 12:58									#730
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, that was really a very short spell of neighbourhood!
Good bye, Steve. I hope to meet you again elsewhere.

	08-09-2003 15:01									#731
	The Persians are so great... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

FIRST CONTACT WITH HITTITES

ECBATANA/HATTUSAS (PAP) Persian troops moving westwards have encountered slightly exhausted Hittite troops at the banks of the Murat river.
The Persians, who, in respect of Assyria, remained north of the river, are delighted to have encountered the Hittites after long last.
An envoy was sent to Hattusas to propose negotiations. The Great King is positive that this will be the start of a good friendship.

In other news:

quote: Have you met the Barbs that **** in the woods allready? May I advice you (for the health of your soldiers) to leave the buggers alone? I lost quite a few good troops on them, so my guess is they will be as tough as the infamous townsmen of the Tigris-tributuary.

In fact, I have, at 125,25 and 129,37. I left them alone for now, but as weapons technology advances, I do not exclude that I will attack them later on. Maybe we should negotiate about who reserves the right to attack which troops.

Goodbye Steve hope you reconsider.

	08-09-2003 21:59									#732
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Steve, I hope I and my rules isn't the reason you are quitting...

Anyway I think you can do one more turn since we won't get a replacement so fast. Between turns you could reconsider your decision...

	08-09-2003 22:46									#733
	Re: The Persians are so great... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel In fact, I have, at 125,25 and 129,37. I left them alone for now, but as weapons technology advances, I do not exclude that I will attack them later on. Maybe we should negotiate about who reserves the right to attack which troops.

Its the Northern one that's the killer.

As for rights: first come, first serve?

	09-09-2003 01:16									#734
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The Hittite King, Mursilis, being a man of justice declares his aprooval of the latest events. Envoys have been dispatched to Memphis and Ecbatana (summer capital?). May the day come when Ninevi and Hatussas can talk with no ill feeling. I heard Madharu has a younger brother Send him over.

Mursilis experiences severe dental problems (in real life). Rumor has it it's his molars. Show some patience for a while...

Agamemnon, friend, please reconsider! Mycenae will be empty without you "for neither ship, nor tower is anything, without people dwelling inside" (free transfer from the back of my head, Oedipus Tyrant)

	09-09-2003 05:50									#735
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Yes, I can do the turn soon (tonight). One of the reasons for leaving is that I have a 10-day vacation coming up later this week. Stay tuned...

	09-09-2003 07:10									#736
	Tired of ads?

Agamemnon I leaves the land of Zeus with a set of diverse and interesting cities and a few units on ships trying to reach other civilizations.

Thanks, Paul. It has been memorable.

Attachment: greek_b3090.net
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	09-09-2003 10:42									#737
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I cannot play before Friday night.
Please skip my turn.

	09-09-2003 15:38									#738
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: As for rights: first come, first serve?

Acceptable

Meanwhile, Persia and Hatti have started negotiations.

To Assyria: Stay tuned, we will be requesting border negotiations in the north before long.

	09-09-2003 23:18									#739
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I contacted EZRhino, but now I am confused:
Steve, you speak about 10-days holiday: do you plan to come back?

	10-09-2003 03:22									#740
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Parley held with multi-party delegations in Hattusas. Minoans, you may still make it with your turn. Stay tuned.

	11-09-2003 04:27									#741
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

IMPORTANT!

As to mapgifs

From the last thread page, 24 (go back and look):

"Getting info from saves
Revealing the starting map is legal, because a player that has already played all civs in SP games has the same info at his disposal."

This was not objected to, as it does not reveal any critical information about the curent game we are in.

Using screenshots of the current game before the discovery of map making is controversial at least. Such detailed current info (position of cities, units, status of huts, barbs) would never be attainable, unless someone used the cheatmode, in a normal game. Moreover, info about third parties is attainable without their consent, pre-contact (though this may be acceptable, gamewise)

After mapmaking, anything (of the above) goes, IMHO.

There was a vote on mapgiving in page 24, what is the verdict?

	11-09-2003 05:04									#742
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

tanelorn, I see you are awaken, that's good.
I would greet if some rules start to be valid. But...

The post before rules 2 contain these words (in red):

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker please send objections if any; concentrate especially to unit giving, city giving; add a vote to map making please pronounce also that you agree (if you have no objections)

Then you and Steve expressed an opinion that seemed that you consider rules too complicated. Then I asked you to explain it:

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I don't know what to do now. I don't know if you and Tanelorn are willing to learn the rules (yes?-no?). I agree with Kull we cannot force rules that weren't agreed in the beginning...

No answer...
One week later you (and La Fayette) wonder that people exchange screenshots...

I did maximum so that rules are established, it is your turn now.

	11-09-2003 05:25									#743
	Inflate your Upload Space

This PBEM is by nature in a radical class of its own, as the scenario itself. It differs primarily in the fact that gameplay evolves as time progresses. Does the concept of maps or borders or in fact rules mean a thing to the man of 3090 b.C. ? Do we have to act simulating that mentality, I wonder? Are we mistaken in our preconceptions, even then? What about the man of 2000 or 1000 b.C. ?

	11-09-2003 05:34									#744
	Tired of ads?

I am completely . Is it a philosophy?
I tried to get you to say if you agree with rules and to vote about map making, I didn't expect such a reaction

	11-09-2003 05:54									#745
	Got spare money?

Well, a scenario about the origins of civilisation in a game called civilisation is bound to get philosophical, one day, don't you think?

What I am saying is that a mapgif from the starting map, instead of the current game with everyones units,cities and fog of war on it saves everyone from this headache of right and wrong. Or instead of a map, descriptions like "from river this to river that" but this too has problems of interpretation.

	11-09-2003 06:12									#746
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hm, screenshots from 3500 - this is a very good idea! I propose we add this to rules.

(Also use of coordinates for defining borders is included in proposed rules - better than "from river this to river that".)

Now you could say how do you look at the rest of rules.

	11-09-2003 09:29									#747
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I play on a black map, I don't want to have screenshots of the world in the first turn:

If you don't want to use mapgifs, I'll settle for a description.

Personally I am all for banning all maps until MapMaking.
Just read carefully and ask if things are unclear.

	12-09-2003 05:48									#748
	Increase Your PM Length

What I meant is that mapgifs from the current game should be avoided, before the advent of mapmaking. 3500 bc shots are less informative of the current situation from an in-game shot, and clearer from the point of geography, when drawing borders.
Meaning I already know this river ends there, or there is a barb or a hut there because I have played the game in SP a couple of times , from most player positions and have a marginally working knowledge of geography, right? What more may a 3500 bc map reveal to me about the current game, that I don't already know?

On the other hand, to accept mapgifs from the current game is like opening the cheatmode, because the info on it is up-to-date. City positions, unit positions, resource status are all visible.

I don't get the first point, I thought everyone played on a black map????

	12-09-2003 18:18									#749
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I am back and ready to play.
I'll play around 18.00 GMT if nobody minds.

	12-09-2003 21:39									#750
	3090 to Hittites Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sorry for the delay. I thought the game would come to a standstill, due to Steve's departure.
(let us hope his departure is false news )

Attachment: mi_b3090.net
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