22-09-2003 13:31									#781
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@ Steve & Tanelorn: I promise to keep care for whatever civ I will get responsibility. I am specialist for challenges
@ Stefan: LOL... it seems we are coming from the same "old europe" country ... Nice to meet you and thanks for the hint with the version, now I am sure it will work
@Slowthinker: Also thanks for the hint, I will have a look for the houserules.

@all:
Does there exist any readme to this scenario/PBEM special, and which civ could I take over? If there exists any time scheduling, I will take the time slot, if not, I would prefer to rule the civ of the hopeless and despaired with the lowest city number. Are there any special game goals or role plays dedicated to the civs?

If you are searching for a reliable and good second join player, may I suggest Sparrowhawk?

	22-09-2003 17:05									#782
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Time passed, and the hopeful new leader had spend some time to study the "house-rules" (though beginning from page 24 only), which are acceptable at all (thanks, Slowthinker, for your big efforts to write it down. It helped a lot!).
Some remarks from my side:

48 hour deadline
I strongly suggest not to let the AI take over a players turn, if he passed the deadline. AI completely messes not only that players civ, but has also tricky side effects with other civs (triggering trading of advantages, surprise attack, instant wonder building, govenrment change, ...)
Better, some neutral person takes over the turn of that player, ended with Ctrl-N.

Unit giving
I would like to add an additional rule:
Any traded unit, which needs shield support or affects city happiness, must have a new home city after trading. If it is a NON-unit after trading, it must be deleted.
This rule prevents from using a feature which is most advantage for republic/democracy. If there is an allied city in your home land, you could move (all) your units beneath the allied city, trade it to your ally, he will trade it back to you the next turn, and -voila- you got an expenseless NON-unit.

	22-09-2003 17:10									#783
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A readme is in the scenario package.
(Concerning documentation - about 3 pages back you can load my two .doc documents that contain peace and war techtrees with units and improvements and one .html document with units arranged by type).
Read last two pages of this thread - a conflict started between Hittites and Assyrians.

No time scheduling.

quote: I would prefer to rule the civ of the hopeless and despaired with the lowest city number.

You are late . I came couple turns ago and I got it.
The opening screen shows this:
Hittites (7 cities, 17 units)
Greeks (7 cities, 12 units)
Anyway Assyrians have 13 cities and Pyramids so you can feel hopeless easily.

Of course Sparrowhawk will be welcomed too.

	22-09-2003 17:34									#784
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quote: Originally posted by kengel Time passed, and the hopeful new leader had spend some time to study the "house-rules" (though beginning from page 24 only), which are acceptable at all (thanks, Slowthinker, for your big efforts to write it down. It helped a lot!). Some remarks from my side: 48 hour deadline I strongly suggest not to let the AI take over a players turn, if he passed the deadline. AI completely messes not only that players civ, but has also tricky side effects with other civs (triggering trading of advantages, surprise attack, instant wonder building, govenrment change, ...) Better, some neutral person takes over the turn of that player, ended with Ctrl-N. Unit giving I would like to add an additional rule: Any traded unit, which needs shield support or affects city happiness, must have a new home city after trading. If it is a NON-unit after trading, it must be deleted. This rule prevents from using a feature which is most advantage for republic/democracy. If there is an allied city in your home land, you could move (all) your units beneath the allied city, trade it to your ally, he will trade it back to you the next turn, and -voila- you got an expenseless NON-unit.

Welcome Kengel

I fully agree with your propositions for the house-rules.
Remember that the 48 hour deadline has been expanded to 72 hours, and that you are likely to get more time if so requested (real-life can sometimes mess up with any game-scedule.) The Ctrl-N idea looks very good.
Perhaps Tanelorn or Steve would be willing to fulfill this little time-consuming task?

[joking]If you like strong challenges, why not pick the Hittite and continue the war with mighty Assyria [/joking]

	22-09-2003 17:43									#785
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

kengel,
There are 2 versions of house rules - did you read the last one?

Unit giving is allowed by online connection only, so units are always rehomed to the nearest city.
I prefer to talk about 48 hour dealine later, so that some rules are valid as soon as possible. germanos - I don't think it has been expanded, Kull only proposed that and nobody answered...

	22-09-2003 23:55									#786
	time limit Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK, I perceived we can talk things about time limit now... but we should separate it from 1st edition of house rules.

quote: Originally posted by Kull couple of pages ago - Time Limit. Having played some other PBEMs, its safe to say that 48 hours is a VERY short period, especially now that the empires are growing. Given that we have international players in multiple time zones, and none of us want to be checking 'poly every other day...

This is one reason why I suggest to post saves ALSO by an e-mail. You needn't to check Poly, only your e-mail. You can also turn on automated warning on your mobil phone about incoming e-mails or to ask your predecessor to post warning e-mails directly on your phone.

I think that some preparatory notices like 'I will play today evening' or 'I can't play next 24 hours' would mentally prepare the next player for his turn.
If I start to prepare free time for my next turn only after my predecessor played then I will sure play later than if I can anticipate the moment of the predecessor's play.

I think the 'time limit' should be interpreted as time in which you are supposed to play or to make clear when you can play. Skipping a turn is a disaster that mixes up player's plans - so it should be used in extreme situations only.
Anyway players should try to play as fast as possible.

quote: Originally posted by kengel Better, some neutral person takes over the turn of that player, ended with Ctrl-N.

kengel, do you mean the neutral person won't move with units, only press Ctrl-N? A good idea, but I think it should be used in those extreme situations only.

	24-09-2003 06:03									#787
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

All right, so I will contact Sparrowhawk, if he is willing to take some civ's fate...
I downloaded the scenario & techtree and had a first look. It looks indeed interesting!
Though I have had some technical problems in loading the scenario (I needed to rename some files since I have the german language version installed), it seems to run now.
Stefan, how did you get running the scenario? Did you need to create the scenario folder (I did not have any installed in my version)?

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker kengel, There are 2 versions of house rules - did you read the last one?

Yop, got version 2, the last posted rules I guess...

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Unit giving is allowed by online connection only, so units are always rehomed to the nearest city.

I have to admit, that I am not sure about that point, but I thought, that the units get NON units if the nearest city is not a city of the own civ.
(maybe I am wrong, I did not try it yet).

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker This is one reason why I suggest to post saves ALSO by an e-mail. You needn't to check Poly, only your e-mail.

I also prefer email, but I will go with the majority.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker kengel, do you mean the neutral person won't move with units, only press Ctrl-N? A good idea, but I think it should be used in those extreme situations only.

In the other PBEM I am involved with, occasionally a turn is subbed by an ally. If you rather prefer someone "real" neutral, any nice external civ player could do a Ctrl-N hit or alternatively join in MP online mode. I let it to your suggestion, if that person might do some obvoius unit moves or city management, or just ends the turn without doing anything else.
Of course, I agree that should only happen in extreme situations
For further go on, I suggest everybody posts his preferred times for moving, so maybe me and Sparrowhawk could choose the vacant civs more wisely in agreement to a clever time scheduling (this might speed up game a lot).
My preferred moving times are dayly between 18.00 and 24.00 GMT.

	24-09-2003 06:48									#788
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by kengel If you rather prefer someone "real" neutral, any nice external civ player could do a Ctrl-N hit or alternatively join in MP online mode. I let it to your suggestion, if that person might do some obvoius unit moves or city management, or just ends the turn without doing anything else.

I think anybody can ask a friend (that is not in the game) for a replacement.
I supposed the 'Ctrl-N only' solution would be used if somebody is naughty, don't play his turn and don't answer. Then 'Ctrl-N only' is probably better than an AI turn.

My best time is 17-23 GMT, but daytime may be possible too.

	24-09-2003 11:03									#789
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I received an email from Kengel telling me of the vacancy in this game, and though I am intrigued, I am also unsure....

I have never played a scenario (mainly because I have never been interested in modifying the existing civ rules) and as a result I haven't the slightest idea how it is different, though I have read this thread, and will download the tech tree and readme file.

Not sure if I should be committing to this, as I am also in the PBEM Kengel is in (for several years now) as well as the Civ2 Democracy Game (come check it out ) and one of the Succession games, and while none of these by themself take much time, I am not clear how ofter the turns are cycling in this one, and wouldn't want to be the cause of a hold up. (but if I read correctly, 7 players and a 72 hour time limit, so a max of 18 days could pass between my turns?... and if everyone one played a turn a day it would be more like 7 days between turns?)

Either way, I am interested, and will either commit or decline tomorrow after reading the above mentioned downloads.

As for available times, GMT baffles me, but I am usually available to play North American 6-10 Central Time.

Sparrowhawk

p.s. How would creating the scenario file, or whatever it is effect my other games? Or would it?

	24-09-2003 14:38									#790
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I think anybody can ask a friend (that is not in the game) for a replacement. I supposed the 'Ctrl-N only' solution would be used if somebody is naughty, don't play his turn and don't answer. Then 'Ctrl-N only' is probably better than an AI turn.

100% Agreed

Sparrowhawk, nice to C you! As you I have same concernments about messing up my civ folder with a scenario. However, though I am no expert, scenarios seems to be easily implemented (without side effects) in the gold edition (You just put all files into a separate folder), things seems to be just more complicated in the "german" civ2 MP version.
However, I have to admit it is lots of time consuming to get worked into a completely new tech & units tree, though somewhat interesting.
I had a first look at the scenario, and it seems Paul did an excellent job. Especially I am impressed, that this scenario is based on real history (maybe this time I can learn more about history )

	24-09-2003 21:47									#791
	SoG techtree Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by kengel However, I have to admit it is lots of time consuming to get worked into a completely new tech & units tree, though somewhat interesting.

Since I am a newbie with this scenario too, I started an all-in-one document that contains units, improvements and wonders with their stats on the techtree. Techtree is divided in economic and war parts, and can be downloaded here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...824#post2254824
(There is also a re-ordered Units.htm document: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...035#post2238035)
Remember it is not always correct.
I have newer versions on my hard drive, so let me know if you want them.

	26-09-2003 05:08									#792
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Egyptian Engineers in the city of Abydos have unveiled a most unusual contraption - a "Ladder Tower". They have assured Pharoah that this structure will allow our forces to climb atop the walls of the fortified Nubian City of Thebes, thus rendering it's defenders helpless before us! Soon my brothers...soon.....these last insolent holdouts will lie prostrate before the God-King of Memphis!

Elsewhere, Libyan horsemen were encountered and defeated in the far deserts of the West.

Attachment: egypt_b3080.net
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	27-09-2003 04:08									#793
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Though I appreciate the invite to join, I have thought about time constraints for me, and my lack of knowledge of scenarios in general and don't feel it would be fair to the others for me to join this game at this time. I will continue to watch this thread however, and who can say what will happen in the future.

* Sparrowhawk

	27-09-2003 04:28									#794
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk Though I appreciate the invite to join, I have thought about time constraints for me, and my lack of knowledge of scenarios in general and don't feel it would be fair to the others for me to join this game at this time. I will continue to watch this thread however, and who can say what will happen in the future. * Sparrowhawk

A suggestion for Sparrowhawk and Kengel: Take a day or so and try the single-player version of this scenario. If you are like most people, you'll find it's very easy to learn and will soon get hooked - it's almost as addictive as "regular" civ!

	27-09-2003 04:36									#795
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quote: my lack of knowledge of scenarios in general

You don't need a knowledge of scenarios in general - you'd need only to conform with a different techttree.

	27-09-2003 14:49									#796
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I would like to take over the greeks, for one reason: It seems optimal placed in time scheduling for me, since Stefan moves before me (in the afternoon / early evening I suppose from some posts?) and La Fayette moves after me in the late evening. Please tell if I thought wrong (I would have no problem with playing the Hittites alternatively).

Sparrowhawk: I am sorry to hear you will not participate, but believe me, I understand your reasons. Nevertheless I hope you will think over it again

	27-09-2003 22:27									#797
	Remove this text

Either Greek or Hittite, in both cases you are welcome as my new neighbour

	27-09-2003 22:53									#798
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I tried out the scenario last night, as the Greeks, and I think I missed something in the instructions

The firts tech I researched (and it defaulted to this) was Advanced Flight, enabling me to build Bombers. My first city started with a spy and a legion, neither of which I was able to build, and all the units and techs were the same as I am used to in Vanilla Civ.

Obviously I missed something essential to playing scenarios and though I could probably find it if I tried hard enough, I don't see what I did wrong (I put the game in a seperate scenario folder, but must have missed a file somewhere).

Regardless of my mistake, it was interesting to play, as many more huts then I am used to resulted in Barbs, and when the Barbs started coming, they were coming fast (Muskateer and Cannon barbs against my Archer defenders ). I would try this out again though, if someone can tell me what I did wrong, so that i can try it as a true test.

Edit: I realize that the game obviously does not get to a point of Bombers/Advanced Flight or Spies/Espionage, and that these advances & units have been replaced in the scenario with different units and advances, I just obviously was missing a file, so the help I am looking for is what file was a missing, how do I get it, and in what folder do I put it? Thanks for your help.

Last edited by Sparrowhawk on 27-09-2003 at 23:04

	28-09-2003 00:00									#799
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk I tried out the scenario last night, as the Greeks, and I think I missed something in the instructions The first tech I researched (and it defaulted to this) was Advanced Flight, enabling me to build Bombers....

Not laughing at you, I just think that's hilarious......yes, this scenario would be VERY strange if the tech tree and units default to "vanilla civ".

Some key pieces of info are necessary to fix your problem:

1) What version of civ do you have? Versions of this scenario will work with every civ version since "Fantastic Worlds", but not with 2.42 (original) or "Conflicts in Civilization" (the first add-on)

2) The Readme file in the download will describe exactly how to install the scenario, but the key points are:
- You must create a subfolder called "ae3500b"
- Place this folder in a folder called "scenario" that resides in your default civ directory.
- Unzip all the files into this directory.
- If you want to use the sounds (recommended), place another folder called "sound" under this one, and put all the sound files in there.

Follow these intructions and you shouldn't have any more bomber problems!

	28-09-2003 00:23									#800
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kull A suggestion for Sparrowhawk and Kengel: Take a day or so and try the single-player version of this scenario. If you are like most people, you'll find it's very easy to learn and will soon get hooked - it's almost as addictive as "regular" civ!

Okay, between your instructions above and what St. Leo helped me out with, I was able to get the proper game loaded. Thanks for the help, and if it made you laugh, it can't be all bad

On further question though, what I quoted above refers to "the single player version of this scenario"...and I am not sure how that is different from what I have downloaded?

	28-09-2003 02:12									#801
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Go here for the complete set of SoG downloads:

http://www.cullivan.com/civ/scenarios/sog/index.htm

We are playing the 1.4 version (PBEM), but I don't recommend it for single play. Try v1.2 instead, since that lets you customize the game for whichever civ you choose to play (which means that every time you start with a new civ, you get a completely different set of events). This does require that you run the included .bat file before starting a new game - which may not work if you are using NT, Win2000, or WinXP. All is not lost however download this file:

http://www.cullivan.com/civ/files/CHOICE.com

and place it in your Windows System32 subdirectory. Problem solved.

	30-09-2003 02:42									#802
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quote: Originally posted by Kull - Place this folder in a folder called "scenario" that resides in your default civ directory.

This is not necessary on my system.

	04-10-2003 16:13									#803
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Persian turn?

	04-10-2003 17:35									#804
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

No new leader for the Hittites yet?
Shall I go on asking my friends?

	04-10-2003 18:49									#805
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Indee the Hittites are still up for grabs.

I asked Techumseh, since he had expressed some interest on page one, but alas he cannot commit to more PBEM's

So by all means, try to get a Hittite player on board.

	11-10-2003 03:01									#806
	Bump Support Apolyton

for Stephan!

Let's not dissappoint Kengel too much

	12-10-2003 20:15									#807
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Oh.

Attachment: cy_b3080.net
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	14-10-2003 22:36									#808
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ah... it is going on...
One thought though:
I could now play the greek, download the turn, post it here, and then we do not go on because we have no Hittite player...
How do we go on? We could wait for a new player joining, then it would make sense to wait with the greek turn, so that we can flexible decide who is taking over which civ (whenever this will be...).
Another alternative would be that someone of us subs the Hittites preliminary till a durable player is found; in my other PBEM this is still practized. Of course there is the unavoidable problem of getting knowledge from the Hittite civ. What do you think?
Another question: Did I understand right that the only game goal is to control the described cities from the other civs? Or is there another game goal (role playing, or to play like real history happened)?

	15-10-2003 23:35									#809
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by kengel How do we go on? We could wait for a new player joining, then it would make sense to wait with the greek turn, so that we can flexible decide who is taking over which civ (whenever this will be...). Another alternative would be that someone of us subs the Hittites preliminary till a durable player is found;

Maybe Steve Clark or even better tanelorn could play a couple of turns of Hittites.
Or is there any new player on the skyline? (La Fayette?)

	17-10-2003 22:39									#810
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Maybe Steve Clark or even better tanelorn could play a couple of turns of Hittites. Or is there any new player on the skyline? (La Fayette?)

I have been in contact with several more friends.
No 'yes' reply at the moment, but I can be a sub for the Hittite leader, in order to keep the game going (would be better than let the AI rule, I suppose ).
Of course, if tanelorn was willing to play a few more turns, until we find a successor, it would be even much better than that.