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Estilpón
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Azote de creyentes (y crédulos) Valencia EU
Aug 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arthur00
Yo siento disentir, pero yo no necesito probarlo para creerlo ... y tan cierto es que no se puede probar su existencia como su no existencia
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¿y el argumento? 
quote:
Por otro lado, se puede mirar de otra forma: ¿qué motivos provocan que en todas las épocas desde que recordamos haya sido necesaria, conveniente, creible (...) la existencia de entidades de orígen divino? |
Piénsalo tú mismo... ¿por qué cree la gente? Porque lo inculcan los padres... si empiezas a retroceder en el tiempo ¿cómo puedes concluir la pregunta?
Se cree por presión cultural. Se podría añadir que el hombre prehistórico, con nulo conocimiento científico, creía en formas religiosas naturales (el concepto de la madre naturaleza), se pasó al politeísmo con forma humana la acrecentarse al vida social: se añaden dioses para cada tarea (los griegos y romanos, por ejemplo) y a medida que la presión científica se acrecenta aumenta el monoteísmo (no pueden haber tantos dioses, muchos de ellos no tienen sentido)... 
Y la transmisión. Pues lo dicho, cultura, familia, sociedad, como quieras llamarlo...
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Arthur00
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Madriz
Sep 2002
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Estilpón
Se cree por presión cultural. Se podría añadir que el hombre prehistórico, con nulo conocimiento científico, creía en formas religiosas naturales (el concepto de la madre naturaleza), se pasó al politeísmo con forma humana la acrecentarse al vida social: se añaden dioses para cada tarea (los griegos y romanos, por ejemplo) y a medida que la presión científica se acrecenta aumenta el monoteísmo (no pueden haber tantos dioses, muchos de ellos no tienen sentido)...
Y la transmisión. Pues lo dicho, cultura, familia, sociedad, como quieras llamarlo... |
¿qué parte de tu vida, Estilpon, no esta influida por la cultura, familia y la sociedad? 
... de todas formas, tampoco pretendía provocar este aluvión, para mi es más una creencia personal que algo que defender o demostrar  .
Lo que quería transmitir es que la fé (en el sentido más amplio, no religioso) es algo que para mi tiene sentido, aunque por supuesto no vale para justificar cualquier cosa. 
No sé si me estoy liando yo solito 
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Estilpón
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Azote de creyentes (y crédulos) Valencia EU
Aug 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Waku
Buena observación En realidad es así, generalmente éstos nacen en un ámbito cultural religioso que acaban por desechar y para ello han tenido que calentarse la cabeza. |
así es, me ocurre lo mismo que a WRW, no te preocupes Plan Austral , no he tenido ningún problema... Aunque siempre hay casos, entiendo que este no es el típico que se argumenta "no cree porque tuvo conflictos con la familia, tan creyente ella..."
bien
quote:
¿qué parte de tu vida, Estilpon, no esta influida por la cultura, familia y la sociedad? |
pues supongo que todas, lo que no quiere decir que tenga que desarrollar las mismas creencias y comportamientos, (...) 
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Plan Austral
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Poster Formerly known as Kublai-Khan. Buenos Aires - Argentina.
Oct 2001
time: 05:22
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Lean esto,
quiero aclarar por si les suena raro lo de Jesus teniendo un hermano, que solo los catolicos creen que Maria fue siempre virgen y por consiguiente Jesus hijo unico , los protestantes creen que Maria era virgen cuando nacio Jesus, por el milagro del espiritu santo, pero que despues Maria y Jose fueron un matrimonio normal, con todo lo que implica, y que Santiago (James) y Juan (2 apostoles) eran hermanos biologicos de Jesus.
Bah, eso dice la biblia en realidad.
Physical evidence of Jesus found?
Scholar claims oldest Jesus evidence
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By Richard N. Ostling
Oct. 21, 2002 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- An inscription on a burial artifact recently discovered in Israel is "the first appearance of Jesus in the archaeological record," magazine editor Hershel Shanks announced Monday.
Writing in the new issue of Shanks' Biblical Archaeology Review, Andre Lemaire, a specialist in ancient inscriptions at France's Practical School of Higher Studies, says it is "very probable" the find is an authentic reference to Jesus of Nazareth and he dates it to A.D. 63 -- just three decades after the crucifixion.
Kyle McCarter, a Johns Hopkins University archaeologist, told a news conference that the identification is probable but he has "a bit of doubt."
"We may never be absolutely certain. In the work I do we're rarely absolutely certain about anything," he said.
That Jesus existed is not doubted by scholars, but what the world knows about him comes almost entirely from the New Testament. No physical artifact from the first century related to Jesus has been discovered and verified. Lemaire believes that has changed, though questions remain, such as where the piece with the inscription has been for more than 19 centuries.
The inscription, in the Aramaic language, appears on an empty ossuary, or limestone burial box for bones. It reads: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Lemaire dates the object to 63 A.D.
Lemaire says the writing style, and the fact that Jews practiced ossuary burials only between 20 B.C. and A.D. 70, puts the inscription squarely in the time of Jesus and James, who led the early church in Jerusalem.
All three names were commonplace, but he estimates that only 20 Jameses in Jerusalem during that era would have had a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus.
Moreover, naming the brother as well as the father on an ossuary was "very unusual," Lemaire says. There's only one other known example in Aramaic. Thus, this particular Jesus must have had some unusual role or fame -- and Jesus of Nazareth certainly qualified, Lemaire concludes.
It's impossible, however, to prove absolutely that the Jesus named on the box was Jesus of Nazareth.
The archaeology magazine says two scientists with the Israeli government's Geological Survey conducted a detailed microscopic examination of the surface patina and the inscription. They reported last month that there is "no evidence that might detract from the authenticity."
The ossuary's owner also is requiring Lemaire to shield his identity, so the box's current location was not revealed.
James is depicted as Jesus' brother in the Gospels and head of the Jerusalem church in the Book of Acts and Paul's epistles.
The first century Jewish historian Josephus recorded that "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James by name," was stoned to death as a Jewish heretic in A.D. 62. If his bones were placed in an ossuary that would have occurred the following year, dating the inscription around A.D. 63.
The Rev. Joseph Fitzmyer, a Bible professor at Catholic University who studied photos of the box, agrees with Lemaire that the writing style "fits perfectly" with other first century examples and admits the joint appearance of these three famous names is "striking."
"But the big problem is, you have to show me the Jesus in this text is Jesus of Nazareth, and nobody can show that," Fitzmyer says.
The owner of the ossuary never realized its potential importance until Lemaire examined it last spring. Shanks himself saw the box Sept. 25.
Lemaire told The Associated Press the owner wants anonymity to avoid time-consuming contacts with reporters and religious figures. The owner also wants to avoid the cost of insurance and guarding the artifact, and has no plans to display it publicly, he said.
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21-10-2002 15:07
(¿no hay por ahí un smiley de darth vader? 
ser Jesús de Nazareth, pero es casi imposible de demostrar
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