01-01-2003 23:35									#91
	Got spare money?

Sure.

	01-01-2003 23:45									#92
	Full PM-box? Change here!

yes I just inserted a d in Eli's post above near the top of the page.

	01-01-2003 23:48									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

yeah we definately want to be friendly as can be until we can get Iron Working. And until we get Iron we stay friendly.

We could propose a tech trade. I hate to give away Bronze working, but I think it's a cheap tech, and we may need the wheel.

Also propose the trade for contact- like you said. They may be truthful and say they don't have contact- or they are lying to throw us off . Or they may say they aren't at liberty to divulge such things.

	02-01-2003 00:03									#94
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I concur - put bronze working on the table and see what they offer up for it.

	02-01-2003 00:05									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think the entire team is on-line. Do we want to try for a chat to discuss some of these things? or at least say we have had our first team chat.

	02-01-2003 00:05									#96
	Tired of ads?

Oh, I dont' think we can actually trade contact until we have writing or some other tech. Can someone clarify this?

But we could ask if they have met anyone yet.

	02-01-2003 00:09									#97
	Inflate your Upload Space

Actually, within the game, if you make contact with another player, you can trade advances, gold, and contacts with each other. The only way you can trade goods/luxuries is if there is a viable trade route. So if the game allows you to trade contacts right off the bat (after the first contact) then it is ok to do it.

	02-01-2003 00:26									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Diss is right. You can only trade team contact within the game. We can chat with the others - as e can now - via PM - but you can't really do much.

	02-01-2003 00:33									#99
	Support Apolyton

I thought I remember one single player game where I wasn't able to trade team contact for some reason.

Wasn't there some tech requirement for trading? I cannot remember. I thought writing was important for something. I'll check I guess.

	02-01-2003 00:36									#100
	Suffering from ads?

sounds good Beta

Jon Miller

	02-01-2003 03:10									#101
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Received this by PM from ManicStarSeed, FA Minister for GS.

Greetings Beta and Vox Controli:

That long awaited moment has finally arrived, we have offically made contact in the game. This opens up a whole wide range of diplomatic possibilities (including trades) and we want to discuss them with you. Over the next day or so, Gathering Storm will be looking at potential trades of information and technologies. We hope that Vox Controli will do the same so that we can come to some mutually beneficial deals.

Again, Greetings and Best Regards
ManicStarSeed

	02-01-2003 08:43									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

ahh good I was just going to ask you about that. I was getting nervous not hearing anything from our neighbor.

There remains the possibility of them doing trades getting what they want and then attacking. At least we have a good idea that they won't attack anytime soon- at least until after the trade diplomacy finishes. But they have to know their moment is sooner rather than later. We might need to discuss when to start rolling out spearmen. But I'm also anxious to get these settlers out as well.

those war chariots are very cheap and can be devastating in numbers this early in the game.

	02-01-2003 10:05									#103
	Put an end to popups!

I hear you, Diss. And after reading the entire strategy thread I mentioned in our moves thread - and Arrian was a major contributor as well - we should be ready for that early rush.

It would sure be nice to know who are their neighbours on the other side - or even if they have other neighbours.

	03-01-2003 03:26									#104
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here it is guys. Their opening position. Some very interesting points here. If we agree to their first point - we are essentially boxed in. And we know why they are asking. To keep us that way.

I think we should entertain the idea of the tech trading - this sounds similar to what I proposed before the game began - but man - I would hate to give up our early game advantage. And they know it.

Sure wish we could contact some other civs. I may have to try some out of game discussion to see who has met who.

Anyway - read on and then post your reactions. Note their time frame. Hah.


Opening Negotiations Between Vox Controli and Gathering Storm
Greetings again friend BetaHound and Vox Controli:

We hope your journey has been going well. Your warriors appear well-trained, well-fed and happy (not to mention quiet muscular!), so we can only assume your nation is at least as glorious as ours, if not more. We are therefore pleased to have contacted you at the beginning of this new era. Who knows what the future will hold? Let us become masters of our own fates and discuss our future relationship.

As an act of good faith, we ask that Vox Controli cease southern exploration for the duration of these negotiations; Gathering Storm will do the same in turn for the northern direction.

Gathering Storm has put together several proposals and we would appreciate your open consideration of them. Please feel free to counter-offer where you see fit. Our goal is to negotiate and make deals mutually beneficial. We will seriously consider any additional deal you bring to the table. The following is a list of our proposals:

1. Temporarily cease North/South exploration as described above. This act of good faith would be the basis for any future negotations.

2. Begin discussion of a potential tech-trading parternship between our two teams. Tech trading would effectively double our respective research rates, ensuring a tech advantage on the world scene.

3. Exchange information regarding luxuries each of us has discovered North and South of the isthmus (South for us, North for you). Connecting our empires and trading luxuries promises obvious economic advantages.

4. Simultaneously reveal to each other either: 1) whether or not we have contacted another team, or further 2) precisely which other team(s) we have already contacted. Our future plans depend critically on who our neighbors are, so obtaining this information early should prove useful to both of us.

5. Discuss what to do about the chokepoint/isthmus with regards to unit movement. The isthmus is clear and important landmark, and reaching an understanding as to its use would reduce early tensions between our teams.

We hope to hear from you in the very near future; please contact us before your next turn, or before the turn after that at the very latest. We apologize if requesting such a quick response causes any inconvenience, but time is of the essence.


Sincerely,

ManicStarSeed and Gathering Storm

	03-01-2003 03:46									#105
	Inflate your Upload Space

hmm very interesting indeed.

I hate to stop exploration because I would like to find out the dimensions of the continent. They did address one point I wanted to find out. Contact- I want to know if there is another civ beyond them. It is possible they are stuck in the middle and want to halt our souther exploration/expansion.

I am suprised they know so much about the isthmus. They also seem to know a lot about the northern part of the continent. How? I guess his warrior can see it from the hills. They couldn't have been that far north before or they would have popped that goody hut. But I am curious how close their city/cities are to our present position of Willy the Wandering warrior.

Basically the only agreement about the isthmus I will accept is that we get control over it and we can build a city on it (and a fort on the hill south of it- to protect the city from being sieged). I will accept nothing less. It is closer to us and we found it first.

Last edited by Dis on 03-01-2003 at 03:53

	03-01-2003 03:48									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

double post

	03-01-2003 03:50									#107
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A few other points I want to make. Basically I don't want to get the short end of the stick. I don't want them to box us in. We need to know the dimensions of the southern continent before we agree to such a proposal.

I would agree to the proposal if we each get a fair share of the land between our nations. And we get to build on the isthmus and fortify units on the hill south of the isthmus for defensive purposes.

But- a big but- if the southern continent is much bigger- and it appears to be- we should be able to claim some of that area. As we explored the northern part of the southern continent ( I like to equate it to S. america) first. So I think we should be able to claim the northern part of the southern continent for ourselves. At least to the lattitude line where our warriors made first contact.

Last edited by Dis on 03-01-2003 at 03:58

	03-01-2003 04:00									#108
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

also one other thing. who actually started the game? Was it started by Gathering Storm? This is important because there are things the game starter can do that would not be in the fairests interests. I'm not saying they saw the map, but that possiblity exists. Looking at the map, there is no way their current northern most warrior can see the isthmus. They could have made an earlier pass, but then they would have got the goody hut-right?

	03-01-2003 04:01									#109
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have had 10 minutes to think about this, and yup - I am of the opinion that we don't give in to any of this nonsense. We settle the chokepont as planned - and build the fort as you have suggested, Diss.

But I also think we expand south as fast as we can. In particular - grab that wheat stalk - put a settler down in a jungle square next to it - maybe the point of land - it will improve the city tile and then the industrious workers can clean out the other jungle. And on the east coast that point of land south of the chokepoint which will grab the whales. And getting even more ambitious - the patch of mountains Willy is in. One nice thing about this terrain - it will certainly neutralize war chariots and the two movement point advantage.

I think they are trying to buy time, so they can settle the area. And I think they want to get through the danger period where we will have Immortals that can do serious damage.

So - as was discussed previously - I vote for settling south as fast as we can - with Immortals for insurance. If they want war - we will Immortalize them.

Now - diplomatically - I will say all the nice things - but essentially ignore all their requests - except for tech trading. I'm just not sure they will have much to put on the table. And if they have not made contact with other civs yet - if the two of us are on this landmass by ourselves - then they are stuck without bronze working - having started with C.Burial and Masonry.

I say push on. But nicely .... ... for now ...

	03-01-2003 04:03									#110
	Increase Your PM Length

Diss - yup - they started the game.

	03-01-2003 04:04									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

see my last post. I think they know more than they should. Basically I want to trade world maps if I were to agree to that proposal.

Like I said they can't see the isthmus. They might be assuming one exists. Or maybe an earlier warrior didn't see and/or pop the goody hut we popped. But I just think they know a little too much about the world map.

	03-01-2003 04:09									#112
	Increase the size of your Attachments

OK here is what I agree to. Tech trading/partnership. Luxery disclosure trading/partnership.

and we reveal other civ contacts.

I agree to points 2,3, and 4.

Remember though. They have the early threat to. So I can't say they fear our Immortals that much. They just want to box us in and take more land imho.

	03-01-2003 04:15									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I can't believe they would use it unfairly to their advantage. But I looked at the 3000 BC screen shot - and I see what you mean. From their 2950BC move, they cannot see the isthmus. What gives?

If they had been here earlier - they would have crossed and we would have met them above the chokepoint.

Maybe this should be our first response - hey what gives? Maybe this is something jon should follow up on. It doesn't strike me as being quite right.

	03-01-2003 04:18									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I don't want to accuse them of anything.

Maybe you can mention that you are amazed at their civilization's knowledge of the world. And maybe we would like to learn what they know. Or something along those lines.

	03-01-2003 04:22									#115
	Suffering from ads?

And my position is - Ok to chat about 2.

3 - yes - but I don't think we tell them the truth. Right now we have limited luxuries.

4. No way! Look at it this way. They will not be able to get north on the continent to see whether we have met another civ or not. But we can clearly get south. And unless they want to take out our warriors, we should be able to push south and see if there is someone beyond them. If they do take out the warriors, then presumably they will have gotten far enough south to see what the lay of the land looks like.

To that end - I suggest that the warriors try a) to stay away from their units and b) if at all possible, to travel through good defensive terrain.

Diss - I agree with you about splitting up South America. I just don't think this is what they are planning.

Guess we should wait and hear from the others.

	03-01-2003 04:25									#116
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The other way they may have gotten the info is by popping a goody hut and getting a map of their territory. That happens every now and then if I recall.

So yes - you are probably right - I wouldn't want to accuse them of anything. And given that GS sort of represents Apolyton's brain trust, it would be a bit of a stretch to think they would resort to stuff like that. Besides - from either side, it would take the fun out of the game.

	03-01-2003 04:26									#117
	Support Apolyton

OK I see your point on 4. It won't be necessary if we don't agree to #1 anyways. I just say we agree to keep out of each others borders (which will be fairly small still) and not attack each other (which should keep them from entering the N. continent.

	03-01-2003 04:41									#118
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes. That is a good proposal and a good way to put it. I agree.

	03-01-2003 07:07									#119
	Got spare money?

Here it is guys. Their opening position. Some very interesting points here. If we agree to their first point - we are essentially boxed in. And we know why they are asking. To keep us that way.

I think we should entertain the idea of the tech trading - this sounds similar to what I proposed before the game began - but man - I would hate to give up our early game advantage. And they know it.

Sure wish we could contact some other civs. I may have to try some out of game discussion to see who has met who.

Anyway - read on and then post your reactions. Note their time frame. Hah.


Opening Negotiations Between Vox Controli and Gathering Storm
Greetings again friend BetaHound and Vox Controli:

We hope your journey has been going well. Your warriors appear well-trained, well-fed and happy (not to mention quiet muscular!), so we can only assume your nation is at least as glorious as ours, if not more. We are therefore pleased to have contacted you at the beginning of this new era. Who knows what the future will hold? Let us become masters of our own fates and discuss our future relationship.

As an act of good faith, we ask that Vox Controli cease southern exploration for the duration of these negotiations; Gathering Storm will do the same in turn for the northern direction.

- uh, no, we beleive that exploration is important in this time frame

Gathering Storm has put together several proposals and we would appreciate your open consideration of them. Please feel free to counter-offer where you see fit. Our goal is to negotiate and make deals mutually beneficial. We will seriously consider any additional deal you bring to the table. The following is a list of our proposals:

1. Temporarily cease North/South exploration as described above. This act of good faith would be the basis for any future negotations.

- not very interested in this, what are you trying to hide (is there something important you do not want us to see right below you ?_)

2. Begin discussion of a potential tech-trading parternship between our two teams. Tech trading would effectively double our respective research rates, ensuring a tech advantage on the world scene.

- a possibility

3. Exchange information regarding luxuries each of us has discovered North and South of the isthmus (South for us, North for you). Connecting our empires and trading luxuries promises obvious economic advantages.

- sure

4. Simultaneously reveal to each other either: 1) whether or not we have contacted another team, or further 2) precisely which other team(s) we have already contacted. Our future plans depend critically on who our neighbors are, so obtaining this information early should prove useful to both of us.

- ok, but we lie

5. Discuss what to do about the chokepoint/isthmus with regards to unit movement. The isthmus is clear and important landmark, and reaching an understanding as to its use would reduce early tensions between our teams.

- we have ismus (when did you discover it was an ismus, we just discovered that recently)

We hope to hear from you in the very near future; please contact us before your next turn, or before the turn after that at the very latest. We apologize if requesting such a quick response causes any inconvenience, but time is of the essence.


Sincerely,

ManicStarSeed and Gathering Storm

-- my thoughts

Jon Miller

	03-01-2003 08:38									#120
	Suffering from ads?

For a minute ther jon I thought you had stolen my earlier thread - or better yet - had written a complete paragraph. Just pulling your leg.

It looks like we are on the same page in terms of the response. I will draft something up now - and post it here for comment. We can probably respond by tomorrow.

OR MAYBE we let them stew for a bit. We continue on our merry way and I will say that their proposals are under active consideration. Any thoughts on this. I hate to give in to their timeline for response, particulary as it was arbitrary to start with.