18-06-2003 23:15									#181
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This deserves some discussion IMHO, I think that this is a good idea but it'll probably be controversial within the team: I suggest to go and tell ND that we suspect that as soon or shortly after GoW gets Chivalry, it'll be GoW and RP vs. ND (according to our theory that RP will buy GoW, and since this will be the easiest-fought 2-on-1 war since ND is sandwiched). That'll hopefully switch ND from building offensive units and relying on GoW for providing them with Chivalry for upgrades to building defensive units and giving a harder time for GoW and RP (or perhaps ND would begin the war earlier, catching GoW and its horsemen by surprise with their swordsmen, hoping that RP would join their side rather than bet on a dying horse), plus improve our relations dramatically.

	18-06-2003 23:16									#182
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While we can't do the long-term NAP (for reasons we've discussed at length), we really need to stay on good terms with ND.

They are pretty likely to be the 1 in a 2 vs. 1 Bobian war. Therefore, we might want to tell them that we are watching events on Bob, and while we have no specific plans, it is obviously not in our interest to sit and watch while 1 civ is devoured by the other 2.

How's this:

"While the Gathering Storm certainly has no plans to attack ND, or any Bobian civ for that matter, we feel that signing a NAP with just one civ will suggest to the other civs that we might intend to attack them. Thus, it might even trigger a war. We've just finished with one of those."

BRING UP THE POSSIBILITY OF A MAP TRADE! Ask them what they would be willing to give us for our map.

We definitely want to trade luxuries with them, so tell them we will have a harbor online shortly and ask when they will have one. **can we trade with them via one of the other Bobian civs, through a road connection?**

We may also want to ask them about coordinating future research with us.

-Arrian

	18-06-2003 23:18									#183
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Shiber,

Suggesting that a RP+GoW vs. ND war is possible is one thing, but I would be careful not to give them the idea that we've actually heard rumblings of such an event. It's just an educated guess at this point.

-Arrian

	18-06-2003 23:22									#184
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I agree, Arrian. We can let them feel we're watching, and have no interest in them being overrun, however don't want to favor one team over the others right now. I'm not sure that's what they want to hear, but it is the best we can do

DeepO

	19-06-2003 00:55									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian We definitely want to trade luxuries with them, so tell them we will have a harbor online shortly and ask when they will have one. **can we trade with them via one of the other Bobian civs, through a road connection?**

Definitely. They have a trade route with GoW, and with RP too, I think. But if ND builds a harbor, we can trade with them even at times of war on Bob.

I agree on your comment on my proposal. Let's definitely make sure that they realize that this is based on nothing but speculations... but I wouldn't tell them that we would obviously have no interest in seeing two civs on Bob swallow the third one, because things still may turn out differently than we are anticipating and ND might be one of the two rather than the lonely one.

	19-06-2003 11:05									#186
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Okay, so let's try to sum up:

NAP: We've had long discussions within GS and we've decided that we want to stay out of Bobian politics as much as possible, and therefore not sign NAPs with anyone. Signing a NAP with just one Bobian civ would polarize the two remaining Bobians against that civ and may trigger a 2 vs. 1 war; signing a NAP with two civs would most likely do the opposite which is just as bad, and what more, it will alienate the remaining civ from GS forever; signing a NAP with all three Bobian civs would mean that GS will not be able to intervene in the matters of Bob "should the international community call for such intervention" (I propose using this wording in our reply to ND).

Engineering: We are terribly sorry, but we have already managed to strike a deal with Vox for Engineering, among other things, as part of our peace accord, mainly because they have nothing else to give us. We simply cannot refuse to receiving Engineering for free.
We are told that Vox will have Engineering in ~15 turns, and we suspect that they will sell it around, which is against our (ND and GS's) common interest, because the result of that is that Vox will get rich fast, while ND will have spent their time and money researching Engineering at the first researcher cost and gain little to nothing. Therefore, we advise ND to try to secure deals with other civs and to offer low prices in order to out-bid Vox and to recover as much of their research investment as possible.

Trade: We are very interested in a trade, and we are looking for stable trading partners. We have furs and incense to offer (we are interested in straight lux-for-lux deals), and also our world map, which contains map information of most of Stormia that is not available from anyone else. We would like to know what luxuries ND has to offer, and what they might offer in exchange for our world map, if they are interested in acquiring it. We hope to find a long-term trading partner in ND (an important statement; since we are refusing their request for a NAP, we have to calm them down with words of stability and long-term partnership).

Anything else?

	19-06-2003 11:30									#187
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That seems to be it, in a rather large nutshell.

	19-06-2003 11:47									#188
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Thanks
Anyone else?
I'd like to have a draft ready in ~12 hours.

	19-06-2003 14:11									#189
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I like it. It may be worth making slightly more of a point about ND being the civ we are least likely to go to war with, since we have better relations with them than with RP and GoW (from our POV), and give them some kind of assurance of non-agression without actually having a treaty. They may prefer a NAP, but this is better than nothing.

	19-06-2003 14:55									#190
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Here's a crazy idea.
We agree that ND can't count on getting Chivalry from GoW, right? Well, perhaps in our next message (following this one), we can offer them the following agreement:
Assumption: GoW and RP are preparing for war against ND. We can judge the odds of how true this is (or whether ND believes this is true, which is what really matters) by ND's response to our current message.
Game plan: GS, being the fastest researcher in the world, will research Chivalry. ND will participate in the research costs, funding 50% of GS's expenditures. Additionally, ND will contact Lego and Vox (but not a word to RP or they will blow the operation) and offer them Chivalry for 75% of what GoW has offered them (but this must remain confidential; ND must state that if Lego or Vox blow the cover in the hope to enter ND and GoW into a bidding war against each other, ND will quit and Lego and Vox will have to pay whatever price GoW would charge them). Once ND sells Chivalry to Lego and Vox, they will split their revenues with us.
Outcome: we get Chivalry without funding GoW and RP's joint military program, and we may even be able to steal some of their clients. ND has a good fighting chance with Ansars, and will hurt GoW and RP much more in a 2 vs. 1 war (and may even turn it into a stalemate, which is most profitable for us, if they get lucky and/or get enough support).
It's risky, but...

	19-06-2003 15:11									#191
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I think GoW has enough of a commitment from us to buy Chivalry from them that they would rightly be offended if we instead researched it ourselves and started selling it around. Also note that I'm not so sure we're especially fast researchers anymore; we still lead in gross income even without our GA, but we're using 10% on the luxury slider and we have pretty high military expenses.

Do we have enough hard evidence of plans for an alliance against ND for it to make sense for us to bring up the possibility? We've gone off half-cocked before making assumptions about what was going on elsewhere in the world, to our detriment, so I'd rather keep our mouths shut (or perhaps ask whether it's a possibility they're concerned about) rather than risk putting yet another foot in our mouths.

	19-06-2003 16:20									#192
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I think we shouldn't hint at anything we expect to happen on Bob... because we're just grasping at straws here. ND is worried they'll be the focus of a 2 on 1 it seems, so is GoW... Who knows what RP is thinking, but it's probably the same thing.

If a 2 on 1 is set up, it could be any of the combinations for all we know. Also, there may be no 2 on 1 set up.

The one that makes the most sense is GoW + RP, as the others would rely on an 'ally' crossing through ND's territory, which would be hard to swallow for them. Even then, RP would have to know we are sitting here with our rather large military and the Lighthouse. GoW seems to have the same idea from some comments they made. So I'm not sure they'd go for it. They could probably guarantee ND's demise, but at the expense of their own safety.

We should get Chivalry for free (Iron+Luxury), or close to it. I think it would take us ~12 turns at as close to even income as we can get, and even if we run a large deficit, we probably can't beat GoW now. Let's save as much cash as we can for rushing improvements, upgrading, and/or making a deficit run towards Astronomy.

	19-06-2003 16:42									#193
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I agree with Aeson- heading towards Chivalry won't probably work- and GoW will be rightly offended.

I'll make a draft ready in several hours, Is anyone willing to handle negotiations with them- I can make the draft, but it'll require more than that in the near future.

Shiber, maybe?

	19-06-2003 20:41									#194
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I've already undertaken an official role in our correspondence with ND (see the diplomats thread). I can handle all negotiations from now.

Last edited by Shiber on 19-06-2003 at 21:20

	20-06-2003 13:07									#195
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Longish.

quote: Honorable Borc, First thing's first, I am happy to announce that I have been appointed to the position of ambassador to Neu Demogyptica. I will be taking over correspondence between our two civilizations from now on. My first assignment as ambassador to your nation is to send forward our official apology for this late response. As you might have read on the public forum, team Gathering Storm likes to work out of a concensus, and as such, we may, at times, take a little longer to reply than other teams do. But know that we value good and open relations with our friends as much, if not more, than any other team in this game. Now, to answer your latest proposals: I was very glad to read your message, when it arrived. It encourages me to read that the people of Neu Demogyptica are looking forward to strike deals with Gathering Storm, and I very much look forward to strengthening our relations. This is why it is so difficult for me to turn down some of your proposals, but thankfully, we do have some other business to discuss, business that can be very profitable for both our nations. With regard to the matter of the long-term NAP, I'm afraid that my team cannot accept that offer. I assure you that we have discussed this issue thoroughly (in fact discussions began about a day before we received your latest message, so the debate was not focused only at ND but also at the other civs on Bob), and we have come to the conclusion that it will be best for all parties involved if we simply stayed out of Bobian politics as much as possible for the time being. We believe that by signing a NAP with one civ, we will polarize the two remaining civ against us and the other party involved and may even unintentionally trigger a 2 vs. 1 war; by signing NAPs with two civs, we do basically just as much damage and again, trigger a 2 vs. 1 war; by signing NAPs with all three civs, especially long-term NAPs, we paralyze ourselves and prevent ourselves from intervening in Bobian affairs should the international community call for such intervention. We, as a team, understand your desire to sign a NAP. However, we feel that by doing so, we will be working against our mutual interest. However, if it is assurances that you are looking for, I give you my word that no single member in GS has ever raised the notion of attacking your fine empire, and in fact, we are looking forward to having a long-term trading partner (I will specify shortly). On to the matter of Engineering. As you must have heard, we are negotiating a peace accord with The Voice. Our economy has suffered greatly during the war with Vox Controli, and we have made great sacrifices on the way; therefore, we seek to receive compensations and reparations from Vox within a peace agreement. But alas, Vox's once-glorious, now pop-rushed, broke and collapsed empire of Vox Controli has little left to offer us, and among the little that they can give us as reparations is the technology of Engineering. There's nothing that we could possibly ask from Vox to replace Engineering if we decide to buy it from you instead, and surely, you must understand that we would rather receive it for free from Vox than pay for it. Therefore, we cannot accept your second offer as well. On this matter, I would like to give you a word of advice: we fear that Vox will try to strike early deals with your neighbours and sell around Engineering when they're done researching it, thus depriving you of the chance to recover some of your research costs. It seems logical to us that your neighbours, Glory of War and Role Play, would prefer to finance Vox rather than one of their neighbours which they may be planning to go to war with (I must emphasize that we have no solid information regarding that part, we are just theorizing at the moment), and so, you may end up paying the first researcher cost for Engineering while everyone else pays much less, and you will come out disadvantaged out of this affair. Hopefully you can find a way to stop that nasty affair from happening to you - we wish you the best of luck. Now, to some more pleasant business. We are very glad to hear that you will be building a harbor very soon. We will have a harbor of our own in a matter of turns and we will be able to trade with you through GoW's harbor and land trade route, and once you complete your harbor, trade will become undisruptible, even if war breaks out on Bob. We have several trades to offer: 1) Trade of luxuries: straight deals of lux-for-lux. We are looking forward to hearing which luxuries ND is prepared to trade. 2) Trade of Maps: we would like to sell our world map, in exchange for gold, gpt or other goods. Our world map contains a complete map of Stormia, including never-seen-before, exclusive footage of the south and inlands of our continent. Please let us know if you are interested, and what price you may want to pay. 3) Future trade of technologies: we are looking for a long-term tech-trading partner. If you too are interested in entering such a partnership, please let us know. I am looking forward to working with Neu Demogyptica. I would also like to set up an IRC chat sometime - please let me know what times might be convenient (and keep in mind that we live in almost the same time zone). Cordially, Shiber, Gathering Storm ambassador to Neu Demogyptica.

	20-06-2003 13:51									#196
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Shiber - is that sent, or just a draft for us to comment on? Not that I have any comments, aside from 'send it as soon as possible'

	20-06-2003 13:59									#197
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Oops- I have sent a message to Borc, but forgot to log it. It's a shorter "update" just to keep Borc in the loop. Most of the info in the message was sent to him, but there's no harm in repeating and re-affirming some of what was said, and of course add some more.

	20-06-2003 14:08									#198
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The only thing that I will say, is that words such as 'reject' and 'refuse' are charged. They set the reader off for the enjoyment of the remainder.

Diplomatic language would involve 'we can not agree with such and such at this time' or 'we think such an agreement would be premature' or...

Avoid the negatives that punch like a boxer's jab. Unless you want a negative reception.

	20-06-2003 14:21									#199
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NYE, agreed. Changing...
Anyone else?

	20-06-2003 15:45									#200
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There's (AFAIK) a concensus around the content, and NYE has already gone over the wording, so I'm sending it.

	24-06-2003 16:51									#201
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Discussing Borc's latest message:

1) They need money right now so they can't pay for our world map. I suggest offering our world map for 30 gold and in the form of a loan that ND can repay later; also, they have to make a commitment not to sell our world map to anyone within the next 20 turns (this means that they can sell their map, if they wish, to a civ that already has a full map of our territory).

2) Let's tell them that we are looking forward to their reply on this matter. Also, I'd mention that we're glad that ND is building a harbor, and we feel that ND can become the trade powerhouse on Bob, what with its ability to cut both land and sea trade between RP and GoW in the event of war simply by setting one city on the eastern coast of their continent. Also, if they have any interesting ideas and they need our cooperation, we'd be very glad if ND can let us into the deal at their conditions.

3) We have no plans for research at the moment... some of us were pondering on researching Invention as well, so we suggest that when either ND or ourselves are ready to research another tech, we will contact eachother to coordinate our long-term plans for researching tech and distributing them.

	24-06-2003 17:10									#202
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1) I don't agree on the 'don't sell our map' clause... much too restrictive. I'd rather offer them a loan, or try to bend it in a way as: if you want to trade (which we'd love), you need to see our habors.. and without map you won't see them for a while. It holds an implicit threat that if they want to trade lux, they might need to consider going for our map as well, but I think it's subtle enough so they won't get upset.
Further, you might make sure they understand that their WM is also worth something to us, even if we would get it from someone else as well. It's more a matter of principle... I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.

2): no please. They probably know they can disrupt trade between RP and GoW, as will GoW and RP. No need to mention that to them

3) we should first of all find out what we want to research, before we start offering things to ND. Already the chat with Lego last night was kind of messy because of that, but now that we have an idea what would be possible, we should come better prepared. In a chat, I consider it acceptable if there are wild speculations, in a PM not.

4) I don't buy it for one minute they are using gold for their cities Either they are still rushing some horses before upgrading, or they are simply saving to upgrade

5) if they are after Vox in Engineering, does this mean they also are on 40-turn research? I think so.. we could know for sure by suggesting that once Vox has discovered it, the beaker cost should drop (not that they don't know that either, of course)

6) I find their unwillingness after the NAP got refused a bit disturbing. They wouldn't see us as targets now, would they? We might mention to them that a lux trade is, although not as strong, considered as an implicit NAP. We won't break a lux deal, like we wouldn't break any other deal.

DeepO

	24-06-2003 17:50									#203
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO 1) I don't agree on the 'don't sell our map' clause... much too restrictive. I'd rather offer them a loan, or try to bend it in a way as: if you want to trade (which we'd love), you need to see our habors.. and without map you won't see them for a while. It holds an implicit threat that if they want to trade lux, they might need to consider going for our map as well, but I think it's subtle enough so they won't get upset. Further, you might make sure they understand that their WM is also worth something to us, even if we would get it from someone else as well. It's more a matter of principle... I'll show you mine, if you show me yours.

I agree.
Shall I offer our WM for their WM and 30 gold later?

quote: 2): no please. They probably know they can disrupt trade between RP and GoW, as will GoW and RP. No need to mention that to them

Ok, you're right. We should assume that they can see what we can see.
Maybe they have an agreement not to settle the east coast yet. And they will probably break it if they have to.

quote: 3) we should first of all find out what we want to research, before we start offering things to ND. Already the chat with Lego last night was kind of messy because of that, but now that we have an idea what would be possible, we should come better prepared. In a chat, I consider it acceptable if there are wild speculations, in a PM not.

Ok, I can say that we are still considering our options, whether we want to research in the near future and which technology we want to pursue, but we would like to coordinate our efforts with ND once we have a clear plan for the future.

quote: 4) I don't buy it for one minute they are using gold for their cities Either they are still rushing some horses before upgrading, or they are simply saving to upgrade

Neither do I.
It's obvious what they need gold for.

quote: 5) if they are after Vox in Engineering, does this mean they also are on 40-turn research? I think so.. we could know for sure by suggesting that once Vox has discovered it, the beaker cost should drop (not that they don't know that either, of course)

Good thinking. Yes, I'll mention this.

quote: 6) I find their unwillingness after the NAP got refused a bit disturbing. They wouldn't see us as targets now, would they? We might mention to them that a lux trade is, although not as strong, considered as an implicit NAP. We won't break a lux deal, like we wouldn't break any other deal.

That could get us into some trouble.
We are also planning to sign lux deals with GoW and RP, right? Well, what if ND lets slip that we told them that we treat lux deals as implicit NAPs?
It won't be pretty.

	24-06-2003 18:03									#204
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Why do we treat lux deals as implicit NAPs. I know that we won't break treaties that we've signed, but the only reason lux deals are for 20 turns is the limitations of game mechanics. We could essentially sign an indefinite lux-lux deal, cancellable at any time by either party (easily done after 20 turns, and can be done by a technical state of war - or pillaging of roads to luxuries - before that time).

Complications arise in lux-gpt deals, since the gpt value will presumably change over time. And also lux for one-off commodities (maps, techs, gold lump sum), where the luxury is being purchased for a definite time. Those could well be regarded as implicit NAPs. We could adopt a policy of allowing ourselves to interrupt e.g. a lux for tech trade (with us providing the lux) on the understanding that after the war is over we will give the lux for the balance of the 20 turns, but that is a little dubious (although is obviously is the right approach if trade is broken through no fault of ours, due to the trade route being broken by other civs at war for instance).

To give ourselves some flexibility in the near future, perhaps we ought to explicity negotiate indefinite lux for lux deals, which can be legally cancelled at any time (by whatever mechanism will break the trade route). Then we can sign lux for lux deals with the Bobians without compromising our ability to get involved should things get interesting.

	24-06-2003 18:58									#205
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I agree with Vulture. Lux for lux deals definitely don't count as NAPs if they are determined as indefinite and cancellable at any time, which makes such deals basically a series of 1-turn lux for lux deals that lasts until the deal is cancelled.
We have to be careful with our wording, though. We must not imply that we want to or that we are considering cancelling lux deals, lest we might make our partners nervous.

	24-06-2003 20:08									#206
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well, I wasn't saying all lux deals are implicit NAPs, and I like the options Vulture gives. However, when a deal is in effect (e.g. a 20 turn deal, in return for a fixed sum or a tech), it is non-breakable from our side. That is something we certainly have to take care for...

Shiber, Re: 5: I wouldn't mention it. I think we can simply assume that they are on a 40-turn research path, hence also their comment they will need to spend more in the future. Right now, they have 1 scientist, so spending more is not that difficult

So... in the middle ages, we researched Feudalism, GoW is doing Chivalry at one third the pace, and Lego gets Theo at one third pace. Other then that, everybody is saving cash. This certainly opens up possibilities for us in long term research...

DeepO

	25-06-2003 21:11									#207
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I'm sorry, but I had some serious computer problems today (boot sector got corrupted, naturally I didn't have a rescue disk, and I had to make one using an already-half-broken PC), and the schedule for the rest of my day prevents me from preparing a draft of a message to ND.
I'll tend to this tomorrow, unless my hard drive goes up in smoke or something.

	26-06-2003 14:55									#208
	Remove this text

Proposed message to ND:

quote: Honorable Borc, Please excuse me if I cut straight to the business, but my RL schedule prevents me from going into lengths. Regarding our World Map: we can certainly understand if you are short on cash, and so, we'd like to propose a loan with 0% interest. We offer you to take our World Map now, and pay for it later. If this sounds interestings to you, please send back a price offer and a date at which you would like to transfer the funds. Regarding trade of luxuries: we are very happy to hear that you are building a harbor! That would certainly strengthen our trading relationships. Additionally, we suggest that you build a town on the eastern coast of Bob and connect it to your trade network, so that we would still be able to trade in all possible events of war. Please keep us posted on the matter of spice; that is, whether you'd be able to trade for it or not. Regarding research: we don't have definite plans in the future, but when we will, we'll make sure to let you know. We will keep your intentions for being the first researchers of Invention in mind. Best regards, Shiber, GS ambassador to Neu Demogyptica.

	26-06-2003 15:45									#209
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Looks good to me- but what is that bit about building an eastern city and trading? We could trade through sea tiles, so I don't think they'll need it- and even if they do, they'll need a harbor in that one as well...

Or are trying to hint at the possible trade blockade they can stage?

	26-06-2003 16:13									#210
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Yes, I'm hoping that they will set up a city there in order to block trade between RP and GoW.
I think it's cunning and indirect enough; even if they think that we might want them to block trade between RP and GoW there's hardly any evidence in what I've written that this is my intention.