03-05-2003 11:23									#91
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The message is very good, definitely conveys the message. Let's them realize what it is they are doing that might upset us, but we're doing it without patronizing and with a honest approach.

	07-05-2003 19:39									#92
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Has that message been sent yet, or is everyone hanging around getting excited about PtWDGII and waiting to see if this game is going to be able to continue? With the break, it might be a good time to get some diplo movement going without holding up the game.

	07-05-2003 19:41									#93
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I think everyone is hesitant about putting any time into a game that might be dead.

	07-05-2003 23:02									#94
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I recommend that we send the message that we composed now, and add a sentence or two saying that with the recent pause in the game (which apparently will soon be back in action), we hope that they had enough time to sort out their internal affairs (I'm pretty sure this is not the case, as either they've dropped discussions when the game stopped or they've been stalling us with excuses; but I'd mention this anyway).

	08-05-2003 14:02									#95
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The game will be back pretty soon. Trip says he's almost done reconstructing the game in the form of a scenario, and hopefully it won't crash this time.
What are we waiting for? Let's send the message to ND.

	10-05-2003 00:03									#96
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Trip is done reconstructing the game. It should resume in a matter of days (once the minor differences between the reconstruction and the original are resolved or all the teams agree to ignore them), perhaps even sooner.
Are we going to send the message to ND?

	10-05-2003 00:11									#97
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I'll get it sent sometime tomorrow; I'll want to do some last-minute proofreading and rewording that I don't have time for right now. In the meantime, if anyone has any more suggestions...

	12-05-2003 07:49									#98
	Inflate your Upload Space

I ended up being a bit slower than I'd planned - Beta's being away made it a bit less urgent and my mind wasn't all that interested in going into "writing mode" if it didn't have to - but I just sent out a slightly revised version of my message.

	13-05-2003 14:56									#99
	Got spare money?

Nathan, could you post the message that you sent to ND on the logs thread? Just for the sake of proper logging.

	13-05-2003 15:31									#100
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Shiber, he already did...

	13-05-2003 16:02									#101
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Of course, I missed it. Thanks.

	20-05-2003 21:33									#102
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Have we received any kind of response from ND yet?
Was the message sent via Apolyton PM or also via email?

	21-05-2003 21:52									#103
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Having just seen the response from ND, my reaction was "Huh?"

They don't want to buy feudalism, but do want to pay the money to establish an embassy (88 gold they say - can we do it cheaper (since they are smaller) and offer them a saving if they send us the money to build an embassy with them? Or do they want to see out capital?) and have an alliance vs RP, who are alleged to be talking about atacking us.

1) RP may talk about attacking us, but seriously, how are they going to do it? Can they defend their borders from an ND/GoW invasion whilst still having enough galleys and troops to sail around the coast, past Vox and down to us? In the absence of about 10 galleys full, what can they do? What are their best units at the moment?

2) Are ND offering an alliance now, or one in case RP decide to attack us? An alliance now looks like a daft thing to offer, since we won't be sparing many troops from the fight with Vox. An alliance in case RP attacks us is presumably a ploy to get them into the war 'honourably', rather than looking like scheming opportunists - otherwise, why would they need an alliance (or is it to keep us involved without backing out to early).

3) Do we want them seeing our capital and its location? Or is that info already in the public domain? Has anyone built any embassies yet?

4) Is the promise of an alliance in case RP does attack sufficient recompense for not getting cash for Feudalism? My suspicion is that they'd take advantage of the situation anyway, so it isn't necessary.

	21-05-2003 22:35									#104
	Got spare money?

We should be able to establish an embassy for much cheaper. Of course then they don't get to see EotS, and won't know it's up to 30 shields per turn, and we get to see what they are focusing on. It would probably be better for us to split the cost. Should be 15-20g each from our end.

RP probably can't land anything more than a token offense (like GoW's) in the next 10 turns or so. They don't have many coastal cities, and can't have many galleys. Maybe 3-4 at this point (they would be vets though).

An alliance with ND would be very nice, but in 15-20 turns, not now (unless RP does attack us somehow).

	22-05-2003 01:46									#105
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I'm pissed off at ND. What are they thinking? How are they running their team? The president has been missing for more than a weekend and they haven't (at least temporarily) replaced him, and now they're telling us that they won't be paying at all? And "they have no idea how this happened"?

I suggest telling them that this cost us dearly, since we were expecting those 200 gold for helping us in the war with Vox ever since we completed Feudalism, and frankly we've been going crazy trying to figure out what is up with them. Therefore, we should demand, according to my suggestion, no less than 100 gold as compensation, of which some will be used to establish an embassy with ND, and the rest we will keep.

I don't mind if ND sees our capital. Vox will probably "whore" (I hope noone has any problems with this term for selling around maps or tech) their maps at some point, if they haven't done so already, so the map of our capital already has, or will, become public domain IMHO.

Last edited by Shiber on 22-05-2003 at 02:00

	22-05-2003 02:03									#106
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Furthermore, Borc's last message gives me the impression that he was thinking "how could ND appease them without actually giving them anything?" (e.g. signing alliances in cases where we would go to war anyway) when he was writing the message.

	22-05-2003 14:38									#107
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So what are we going to do about ND's last message?

I repeat my previous suggestion for the sake of starting up a discussion: we make them realize that their refusal to meet their past obligations has cost us dearly, in that we expected to receive money from NeuD several turns ago to help us in the war against Vox but did not receive any and had to change our plans.
However, we are wiling to forget all that and start anew if we receive 100 gold as compensation. Some of that sum will be used to establish an embassy with ND, and the rest we will keep.
If they're going to buy Feudalism for cheap from GoW or someone else, at least let them pay us some in order to make their deal for Feudalism less worthwhile.

	22-05-2003 14:41									#108
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That was my thought Shiber - they are offering us an embassy they are going to build anyway and an alliance that changes nothing to pacify us without changing their plans in the slightest.

Regarding Feudalism - what are the odds that they are close to finishing the GLib. Things begin to make a bit more sense then - they don't want to buy feudalism, since they expect to get it for free in a few turns (and if they don't, they'll buy it then). They expect to be attacked by RP (and GoW?) if they do get the GL, since the other civs will want it and are capable of crushing ND in all likelihood., so an alliance with us helps them out again. It explains the disintrest in feudalism (when they are essentially planning to go to war) and the desire for an alliance (and hence an embassy - am I right in thinking that 'unofficial' alliances are ruled out by mutual consent in this game, and need to be formally declared as in SP - hence they need an embassy?)

I've not managed to think of another scenario in which their actions make sense yet.

	22-05-2003 14:58									#109
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Good thinking Vulture. Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Btw, AFAIK no such restrictions apply in here. Alliances can be signed out-of-game, and the same for other agreements (if you remember, maps were swapped before map making, and minimaps were swapped even before contact was made).

	22-05-2003 19:52									#110
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Let's go a bit deeper. Why would ND offer us the money to establish an embassy, if they will gain more knowledge (i.e. our precise production abilities and gold reserve) establishing it themselves? Sure, they would give something to us, but that something (knowledge on their capital) is of no importance to us right now.

Apart from what we could gain, what can they gain from this? If we would establish an embassy, they could tell others that apparently, GS has plenty of cash, as it can establish embassies in the midst of war. It's kind of similar to GoW's invasion, which by now should be cleared through propaganda. It wouldn't surprise me if ND and GoW are trying to get RP in on an alliance to conquer our continent. If so, ND and GoW have more use for the extra land, but they can't risk it when RP doesn't ship at least half of its forces towards us.

DeepO

	22-05-2003 20:15									#111
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The possible complex plots can be nested as deeply as we like, in principle, and we could probably think of a scenario in which we are likely to be sneak attacked by just about everyone on the planet. I certainly don't trust ND, especially with their transparent and lame offer, but the idea of a joint invasion from Bob looks like a "Prisoner's dilemma" type of situation: if they all stick to the plan it benefits them all, but if one of them defects and starts a war on Bob, that civ gets an even greater benefit at the others' expense. I don't see all three Bob civs being so virtuous as to not give into temptation; rather they might agree to an invasion and then all send off token forces and sneak attack each other. Any patsy who does send a significant force to Estonia gets mullered by the ones who didn't.

	22-05-2003 20:16									#112
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BTW ND might not want us to establish an embassy if it is the case that they are building the GLib in their capital and don't want anyone to know how close they are to completing it.

	22-05-2003 20:39									#113
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Proposed message to ND:

quote: Respected Borc of Neu Demogyptica, We are sorry to hear about what has happened to your government. The entire PTWDG community has suffered numerous common events of crisis, such as when time froze over and was thawed by unknown forces only recently. But at least then, we were all in the same boat, whereas in your case, you have noone else to share your sorrow with. Well, if it's any comfort to you, that last part is no longer true - I assure you that everyone in GS is sorry to hear about the absence of your current government. We hope that you will get your old government back soon, or at least manage to form some temporary controlling body to avoid complete anarchy in the meantime. Onto business, We were also sorry to hear your response on the matter of Feudalism. We were confused, however, by your offer for compensation, and we think that you underestimate this situation. Please understand, that your surprise change of mind has cost us dearly. We were expecting 200 needed gold in the midst of a war, and we did not get any of that - additionally, you have left us in the dark for quite a while about this matter, and we were forced to make many compensations on the battlefield, which as I mentioned above, have cost us dearly. We are willing to partially adopt your proposal to forget this ugly affair and start anew, but we propose some changes. To match the damage that ND's sudden change of mind and violation of a written promise has caused to GS, we require a compensation of a total of 100 gold. A part of this sum will be used by GS to establish an embassy with Neu Demogyptica, in order to aid future deals and strengthen our diplomatic ties, and the rest will be spent by GS as it sees fit. We know that Neu Demogyptica deals fairly and honorably, and will understand our situation and comply with our request. Of course, should Neu Demogyptica change its mind about this issue, GS would be more than happy to trade Feudalism for just 100 gold (coupled with the compensations, that's 200 gold, just like the original price) plus half the cost of the embassy. Once again, we hope that you get your government back promptly. We are sure that they are all safe and sound, and wherever they may currently be, they are making their way back to Neu Theben as quickly as possible. Cordially, Whoever sends this message (probably Zeit)

	22-05-2003 20:50									#114
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I don't think we're in any position to demand compensation, as this is what we're doing here... It's not that we really need the money right away, we just like to get it soonish if possible.

We need to keep, or gain them as friends, so politness alone won't make it, we also need to offer friendly content of our messages IMHO

DeepO

	22-05-2003 20:53									#115
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quote: Originally posted by vulture BTW ND might not want us to establish an embassy if it is the case that they are building the GLib in their capital and don't want anyone to know how close they are to completing it.

No, we can easily check this in the F7 screen. That can't be the reason.

I agree on the possibility to see conspiracies everywhere if you look hard enough, but we need to keep doing this to a certain extent, as it can also prepare us better for worst-case scenarios. The offer from Borc is strange enough to think about, it seems so out of place without a large picture attached.

DeepO

	22-05-2003 21:01									#116
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DeepO, I partially agree, but in my opinion, my response (or a similar response with some changes in details but the same general idea) is the only reasonable response to such a message as ND's latest one.
We can't let ND walk all over us and offer us "compensations" in the form of actions that they were going to do anyway. We have to send out a clear message - it does not pay to cheat us or work around us like ND has done, and we will not accept ND as honorable trading partners again until they either compensate us for our loss or finally buy Feudalism from us.

	22-05-2003 21:04									#117
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I'd like to revise one of the paragraphs in my proposed message:

quote: Of course, should Neu Demogyptica change its mind about this issue, GS would be more than happy to trade Feudalism for just 100 gold (coupled with the compensations, that's 200 gold, just like the original price) plus half the cost of the embassy. Or, if you can make that decision now, we can forget about everything and carry out the original deal (Feudalism for 200 gold).

Btw, what's up with ND's latest diplomatic in-game moves? (we send them an unaccepted offer of Feudalism each turn, and they keep accepting it on their side without putting any money on the table)

	22-05-2003 21:09									#118
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They're probably hoping we'll click accept by accident, thus gifting them with Feudalism...

	22-05-2003 21:11									#119
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Hmmm... At this moment, I would rather sell Feud to them for 100 gold, and let them build the embassy if they want. Asking for 100 compensation, then offering Feud for 100 will seem absurd to them, and very cocky. I know the idea is right, but we can't bring it to them like that, or they will laugh in our faces. They already have a deal for Feud, so the tech is lost. Why not offer them Feud for 100 gold, and see their reaction.

BTW, Maybe we should offer the same to RP and Lego. In which case, somebosy else should do it, tonight I'm leaving for my sister's wedding, and I won't be back until Sunday late.

DeepO

	22-05-2003 21:16									#120
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I don't like the idea of sending a message with the tone, "Give us such-and-such or we won't be friends." I would put it more like,

quote: Any situation where we end up with significantly less than we had been led to expect is going to hurt our faith in Neu Demogyptica as a trading partner to some extent. But we do want to be friends, and your willingness to provide some compensation will certainly lessen the damage.

In regard to the idea of an alliance against RP, I've been thinking of something along the lines of

quote: If RP attacks us, we would certainly welcome an alliance to address that threat. But while the war with Vox is going on, we feel that our safest course is to stay out of your continent's politics to the extent practical. We hope you can understand that position.

I could put together a complete message this weekend, but I doubt that I'll have time before then.