27-05-2003 16:21									#151
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Also, I think that an apology to ND for the delayed response is in order.

	28-05-2003 02:53									#152
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Okay, I've sent the message, with a small addition in the beggining (apology) and in the end (invitation for a chat).

	29-05-2003 19:25									#153
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Finnaly some good news from the diplomatic front- nothing much, just that we're about to get 80 gold from ND for an embassy (that we'll open). Borc also sounded in a good mood, and asked me to join a chat they'll hold sometime next week. Perhaps that could fit well with our plans to arrange an Iron embargo on Vox, and also find out why (maybe?) we are isolated, and what's going on in the tech market.

	29-05-2003 19:57									#154
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Whew

A chat would make an excellent opportunity. Of course, we must not declare our interest in an iron embargo until Inchon is actually carried out - we don't really know who we can trust.
Anyway, you're right, a chat would make an excellent opportunity to learn more about what's going on in Bob.

	30-05-2003 15:13									#155
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Good work guys

	30-05-2003 16:58									#156
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We could use your help more often.

	30-05-2003 17:38									#157
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ND chat: most definately. It doesn't matter if we really need to ask them something or not, but we should try to become more acquinted with these guys... somehow I get the impression that they're less biased towards us. Just an informal chat, without an promises, requests, or possible deals could help us.

DeepO

	30-05-2003 17:54									#158
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Kudos to Nathan on a well written message, that really carried the message through- I guess what they really wanted to hear from us was that they havn't alienated us.

Hopefully we can rip the benefits of friendship- as this looks like the one resource we're seriously lacking.

	06-06-2003 14:43									#159
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We have a formal invitation to a chat.

Borc said- a small and short chat. So that means we shouldn't come with an army of represantatives. 1 or 2 will probably do. I think I could come to the chat, but I'm not completely sure. Perhaps alva, as the ambassador, would like to join.

The other issue is what we're talking about in the chat. Borc probably didn't mean this to be a "heavy" negotiation session. But we could share some of our concerns, about Lego for example, or that Iron issue. And our hopes for future trades (alwaus sounds good). We could be honest with them and say we feel we're being isolated, but that ND has been viewed as isolationist earlier in the game- so perhaps this could be a basis for friendship.

Of course there are the issues of what we say about the war (although almost everything was spilled on the board), and how we ask them more info on the happening on Bob.

	06-06-2003 14:54									#160
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Our relationship to ND is very important and we should do our best to make this chat a success. Zeit and alva will be a good staff for us. In order to increase their power in the negotiations, we should discuss before the chat, what are our objectives. In my opinion, there are 2 key issues:

- getting a reliable partner for tech trading
- making sure ND is on our side or at least neutral, when we pick on Roleplay.

	06-06-2003 14:56									#161
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Hopefully we can rip the benefits of friendship- as this looks like the one resource we're seriously lacking.

Nah, there's a friendship resource 21 from Sandstorm, but we've only got one. Hopefully we can capture Vox's cluster near The Voice.

It is probably worth asking Borc if he's willing (or allowed) to speculate on the possibilities of war on Bob once the UU's start to appear.

ND is a civ worth taking the time to get better relations with IMHO. Unless they do something crazy like give their iron to Vox.

	06-06-2003 14:59									#162
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What is 21 from Sandstorm? Sorry, I have no access to the map right now.

	06-06-2003 15:10									#163
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A freindship resource.

I was making it up. It was meant to be mildly amusing.

I think I'll just go home and cry over my failed attempt at humour

	06-06-2003 15:31									#164
	Got spare money?

Don't cry. In that case not you lacked humor, but I did.

	06-06-2003 16:15									#165
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quote: making sure ND is on our side or at least neutral, when we pick on Roleplay.

That should be our "ultimate goal" perhaps, but I wouldn't bring this up on our first date...

I think we have a bitter experience with Lego, that should teach us walk step by step when attempting to reach an agreement on something. We should always keep an eye on our potential partner and asses what it is we can give for what we want.

A good start would be to asses the politics on Bob, and ask ND about future plans.

	06-06-2003 17:44									#166
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*prays this chat goes well*

-Arrian

	06-06-2003 18:25									#167
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quote: Originally posted by zeit That should be our "ultimate goal" perhaps, but I wouldn't bring this up on our first date...

Yes of course. No need to hurry things up. We should work towards this goal. Just make sure, the chats continue.

quote: A good start would be to asses the politics on Bob, and ask ND about future plans.

Agreed.

	06-06-2003 18:30									#168
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Perhaps at the chat you could ask a bit about RP and what they said about RP attacking us.

	16-06-2003 02:04									#169
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Proposed Message to ND
IF no objections it will be send in a couple of hours
Feel free to correct typo's

quote: Hello fellow ND'ers It has been awhile since I have contacted you and for that I would like to apologize. It looks as if the time to bury the weapons has dawned, although nothing is final, the omens are good. The war has been going on too long anyway and has drained much energy from all of us. Ending the war could be a very good thing for you too, even directly. It looks that we will get enginering as part of the peace agreement and were hoping you would be interested. I'm going to be very upfront on this and tell you that we are not looking to make a lot of profit for this as too much blood has been lost over this, but seeing that we need to reuild some basic infrastructe we can use all we get. The downside is that there are no garantees and it will not come very soon (+10 turns). I know you researching have made progress in this very field, but I'm sure you could use the resorces for other things aswell. If you are interested, I'm sure we can come to some kind of agreement beneficial to both nations. May we look forward to more peacefull times, With best wishes, alva of GS

	16-06-2003 02:05									#170
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Kept it short in the hope I can get a more frequent correspondence going with ND

	16-06-2003 16:51									#171
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But I don't remember having been promised Engineering...
If I've just missed something, then go ahead and send this with my blessings. But if we received no assurances that we will get Engineering yet, then I advise to make it clearer that we do not have solid assurances for this to go through yet.

	16-06-2003 17:20									#172
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We got it backwards... we want to get Engineering from ND, not give it. It doesn't look like we'll get it from Vox in any case.

We are screwing ourselves over (in a PR sense) with Engineering talk so far IMO. First we send other teams feelers about selling ND's Engineering, then send ND a feeler about selling it to them? Let's sell what we have/are promised (that means ratified), and not try selling anything else.

	16-06-2003 17:46									#173
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Right, I was confused by this too... I thought the idea was to act as a low-cost distributor for ND's Engineering, replacing Vox as the source and benefiting all teams (especially ND).

Regardless of the possible peace with Vox, this still seems like a mighty fine idea to me... with the bonus of diminishing Vox' value to the world.

	16-06-2003 18:46									#174
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quote: Right, I was confused by this too... I thought the idea was to act as a low-cost distributor for ND's Engineering, replacing Vox as the source and benefiting all teams (especially ND).

That's what I had in mind- and that's what I sent to UnO back when Vox's elimination looked like the only option. This was in an effort to pacify GoW, and perhaps others, and allow us to go on killing Vox without them losing the tech they expected, and without paying too much (because ND wouldn't mind selling it for almost nothing since everyone will buy it from Vox anyhow).

Right now, I don't think we should push it- as it seems like Vox is pulling out of here, and no one will need an alternate source, pushing everyone to buy from ND will just look like an attempt to screw "poor Vox"...

But, there's no harm in telling ND to try and sell it for cheap- or at least tipping them that there's another seller, I'm sure they would appreciate it.

	16-06-2003 19:18									#175
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I agree with Zeit.

	16-06-2003 22:41									#176
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Since it looks like Vox is going to stay alive, there is good chance we will get it from them right????
-
I havn't this message yet, and I'll hold for now.

	18-06-2003 22:46									#177
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Oh man, poor ND
We're going to refuse two of their three points (given recent posts). But we cannot allow ourselves to alienate them from us!
Let's find a way to embrace them, without agreeing to any of those crazy proposals (a NAP until 500 AD?!?!). Trade luxuries, trade maps, and when we don't have any other trades to conduct, just trade information or rumors and keep the communication line open all the time.

	18-06-2003 22:48									#178
	Got spare money?

We might get Eng. for nothing (or close to it) from Vox, so we shouldn't tell something to ND that would disappoint them.

They have asked for a really long term NAP- that's a big no-no, even a short one seems to be problematic for us...

We have to think of some way of saying no twice and keep them happy.

Perhaps if they give the right price for Eng. we could get it from them, but we might have to press them to lower it- since we possibly could get it from Vox, and that won't be very nice.

It'll be nicer than just not saying anything and getting it from Vox, like someone did to us...

	18-06-2003 22:55									#179
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I would warn them of the coming Vox tech, and tell them politely we can't accept, if it is part of the peace negotiations... and as there is nothing else to get from Vox, we can't just leave the tech out, and buy it from ND instead.

I would also warn them that they better sell their tech quickly, as it looks like Vox is going to use it to build up again, by selling it to all other teams (seeing they have way better contacts than both ND and ourselves)

Further, explain the situation on the NAPs, and how we certainly can't do that to one team. However, make some vague reference of how we like their diplomatic attitude a lot better then how others have been treating us, showing some friendship, but not commiting.

And yes, ask for a harbor asap, so we can trade. I wouldn't mind selling them some lux, I would even go so far as to giving them 1 lux (e.g. for 20 turn), as compensation that we can't buy engineering from them. They offered us gold last time, we should set some example by doing more then talk nicely to them.

DeepO

	18-06-2003 23:01									#180
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