22-05-2003 21:19									#121
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quote: Originally posted by vulture They're probably hoping we'll click accept by accident, thus gifting them with Feudalism...

	22-05-2003 21:26									#122
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I know the idea is right, but we can't bring it to them like that, or they will laugh in our faces.

They won't do that, they'd fear that we'd let others know that promises from ND should be taken lightly and that ND should not be trusted.
If they do laugh in our faces though, I am all for making this public (but in a subtle manner, like we handled the GoW situation in Vox's war reports thread).

quote: BTW, Maybe we should offer the same to RP and Lego. In which case, somebosy else should do it, tonight I'm leaving for my sister's wedding, and I won't be back until Sunday late.

RP: I won't mind, but I'm certain that they would do all they can to avoid giving either us or Lego any money.
Lego: We've already agreed to offer them Feud + gold for Theo. Btw, are we ever going to translate that apparently unanimous agreement into actions and actually make the offer?

	22-05-2003 22:01									#123
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I could put together a complete message this weekend, but I doubt that I'll have time before then.

Nathan, I would be honored if you would rewrite my message (from the samples that you've posted I think that I'll actually be pleased with the changes, you raised good arguments and you always put them well and appropriately).
This weekend is fine, considering the rate at which this game is progressing.

	22-05-2003 22:27									#124
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Shiber, sorry on Lego, but as said in the thread, I can't do it right now. But I agree we need some offer...

I'm not certain how far ND thinks it made promises, it never signed an official deal, only said things like 'sure, offer the tech, and we'll offer the money". I propose that if we have to press that point again, we quote from their messages. I don't look at this situation as a broken deal, maybe other Stormians do see it so extreme. Which is why I don't think we're in any position to demand compensation. But, we should try to get compensation for what they did, only not name it like that to piss them off.

As to making it public in case of a backtab: that will be a lot more difficult. GoW has members that comment all kind of stuff everywhere, which makes it easy to respond to. ND is different, they very rarely comment on the game itself. It doesn't create nice opportunities for subtlety

DeepO

	22-05-2003 22:32									#125
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They've explicitly told us that they're going to pay.
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...463#post1905463
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...789#post1909789

	22-05-2003 22:45									#126
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Shiber, I know. But after that, they also explicitely told us that their ambassador was not handling to the group's opinions, and they fired him. As bad an excuse it is, it does mean that if it's true (and we have no reason to not believe that), they haven't lied to us, nor broken a treaty. We have not received a very official "our team has ratified your proposal" message... maybe that was intentional, maybe not. We can blame them for lousy diplomatic contact, but not that they are breaking a treaty.

Besides, it doesn't really matter how we see things, it's how they see things that counts. And from the sound of their messages, it doesn't show that they think they did something wrong, although they (or at least Borc) seem to realize that they have to keep GS as a friend, hopefully with as little commitment from ND as possible. We are a threat to them, certainly after we would take out Vox. So, if we ask for compensation, I think they'll see it as extortion instead, which is not what we want to achieve.

As to the RP situation: If ND and GoW would attack RP, the last thing they want is that RP pays for our help. It's not that they need us against RP, and I think they would even prefer us staying on our continent, as long as we won't attack them. This is what they're really asking for: a NAP, packaged into an alliance against RP. We might use that in negotiations.

DeepO

	22-05-2003 23:11									#127
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Legally, if their ambassador gave us a false impression, it's ND's problem, not just the ambassador's problem, so they are responsible for this. But you're right in that we shouldn't confront them with direct accusations, and be more subtle about it.
I still think we should ask for compensation, one way or another, and I still stand behind the '100 gold partially used by us to establish an embassy' idea. I think that Nathan can put this well.

IMHO they are not being honest with us. 200 gold for Feudalism about 7-8 turns ago is more than reasonable, I see no reason why their team wouldn't accept such an almost generous offer, unless it's planning something (e.g. to give us one impression and then go and buy it from GoW or someone else).

IMHO offering them Feudalism again for 100 gold is a bad idea. It would set a precedent: buy later from the same seller for half the price.

I agree with your comments re: RP. Maybe we could add a commitment not to attack ND in the next 20 turns to the 100 gold thing, to address their concerns and to make the compensations easier to swallow for them?

	23-05-2003 00:39									#128
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I think Borc should be confronted with the logs of our previous communication- what they did IS making a deal, than backing off. They are the ones to deal with their ambassador's bad behavior- and compensate the ones hurt by his actions- as long as he acted as ambassador.

As for what to actually say- I think that Shiber suggestion for 100 gold for embassy and NAP is reasonable. If honor and keeping agreements really worths little in our world- at least we could try and get something out of it, ND should realise what they did is wrong and that we want compensation, and have a certain right to except one, if they consider themselves to be honorable.

As far as alliances go- Nathan's comment delivers the message: we have our own (war) politics to handle now.

	23-05-2003 00:57									#129
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I think Borc should be confronted with the logs of our previous communication- what they did IS making a deal, than backing off. They are the ones to deal with their ambassador's bad behavior- and compensate the ones hurt by his actions- as long as he acted as ambassador.

It's possible that they haven't yet realized the severity of what they've done to its fullest extent. I think that quoting Borc and explaining that they are responsible for their ambassador's mistakes and responsible for compensating us for the damage that was caused to us would really help.

	23-05-2003 01:55									#130
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I don't think we should demand anything. It can only serve to further alienate us from ND regardless of if they give the 100g or not. The 100g is rather inconsequential, it's 2/3rds a turn of commerce. ND's friendship could very well end up as our only chance to win this game.

I say we explain that the Embassy would cost about half as much if done from our end, and offer to split the difference. This keeps them from getting a look at EotS which nobody as of yet has good data on what it could be producing right now, gives us a better idea of what ND is up to, and shows we aren't into holding grudges. It also gives ND and us a pretty good deal, 15-20g for an embassy.

We politely decline the alliance vs RP, and perhaps start negotiating a NAP.

------------------

One of the teams (above and beyond Vox ) is cooked with the advent of Chivalry IMO. It's going to be the team with no friends...

	23-05-2003 02:42									#131
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Aeson, we can assume each team knows about our production in EotS, if they bother to count. Vox surely would have sold that information, otherwise each new embassy we establish also reveals our territory. Given that we're size 12, and holding, it's easy to see where going for 30 tiles production in GA.

But I agree for the rest; we can't demand for anything.

Chivalry: it seems obvious that ND and GoW are splitting costs, and save for upgrade money. ND on 100% tax, GoW on research. The moment GoW gets Chivalry, all hell breaks loose. So, I don't think there will be much envy between ND and GoW, and they don't care about RP (or they are in on the deal). This game is going to turn very interesting, very soon

DeepO

	23-05-2003 02:51									#132
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Actually, come to think on it (slightly off topic in the current thread of conversation): I think that the deal of Feud from GoW would probably have been reached at the exact same time as they offered us 200 gold in advance. It wouldn't surprise me, if part of that 200 gold came from ND, which e.g. paid GoW 80 gold up front, to get Feud after the GoW-GS NDA expired.

If this is the case, all offers on Feud from us will be futile, as they already paid.

BTW, I don't see any problems by offering a tech for half price when our NDAs start to run out. By doing it a few turns before others, we can maybe recuperate some of our loss. Teams can choose to wait for the open market price, but that also means they will be behind the others in tech. So IMHO we should start to offer Feud on reduced prices to everyone now, not within a few turns. If it can wait until Sunday or Monday, I'll write some proposals if needed.

DeepO

	23-05-2003 03:33									#133
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We can't demand anything- I have to agree on that- but we have a right to be compensated, and we could at least make it clear in a way that won't be difficult to understand.

Also- offering Feudalism for a reduced price is of course something we have to do, and it could be integrated in the message to ND (who is currently in charge there- is it Borc?).

	23-05-2003 03:35									#134
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quote: Given that we're size 12, and holding, it's easy to see where going for 30 tiles production in GA.

I meant more along the lines of what we were producing, have produced (improvements vs units), and how long we can run the food deficit for. Also they could get a pretty good idea where Hurricane (or a 'big' city) is by seeing what tiles we are using in EotS.

	23-05-2003 03:45									#135
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ND has already shown they are willing to compensate us in some way. I don't think we should ask for more, or hint we want more than what they already have offered.

It would be better if we give ND some slack (less cost to them), while turning the embassy more to our advantage and less to theirs. That way we come off as generous and friendly, instead of opportunistic and greedy.

I also think we are helped by projecting a somewhat weaker diplomatic stance than what we have been sticking to. If teams start to think they can take advantage of us diplomatically, we get to choose when and where that stops, and they are less likely to want to gang up against us. Might be too late for using any sort of suprise, but it's better than strengthening the feelings already against us.

	25-05-2003 00:25									#136
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Zeit, could you try to reword my previous proposal?
Perhaps if we sounded more polite, or further stressed that we have incurred damage due to ND's actions and that they are responsible for it, it would make a stronger impression or seem more convincing.

	25-05-2003 01:23									#137
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Wrong thread.

	25-05-2003 04:39									#138
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I'll try and do my best (well, at 2:30 am, that's not my best, but still...)

quote: Respected Borc of Neu Demogyptica, We are sorry to hear about what has happened to your government. The entire PTWDG community has suffered numerous common events of crisis, such as when time froze over and was thawed by unknown forces only recently. But at least then, we were all in the same boat, whereas in your case, you have no one else to share your sorrow with. Well, if it's any comfort to you, that last part is no longer true - I assure you that everyone in GS is sorry to hear about the absence of your current government. We hope that you will get your old government back soon, or at least manage to form some temporary controlling body to avoid complete anarchy in the meantime. Onto business, We were also sorry to hear your response on the matter of Feudalism. Please understand, that your surprise change of mind has cost us dearly. We were expecting 200 needed gold in the midst of a war, and we did not get any of that - additionally, you have left us in the dark for quite a while about this matter, and we were forced to make compromises on the battlefield, which as I mentioned above, have cost us dearly. Like you, we are willing to adopt the idea of leaving this ugly affair behind us and start anew. We would like to make a new proposal on Feudalism- for 120 gold. A part of this sum will be used by GS to establish an embassy with Neu Demogyptica, in order to aid future deals and strengthen our diplomatic ties. This will save us both money- as it cheaper for us to establish and embassy in your capital than vice versa. We know that Neu Demogyptica deals fairly and honorably, and will understand our situation- as we certainly feel for yours. Living in a land on the brink of war is ought to be not easier than living in a land where war reins. The GS members have expressed their willingness to negotiate a strategic agreement between our two nations, in the form of non-agression pact, in an effort to dissipate some of your fears, and strengthen the bond between us. However, at this point, we would like to keep ourselves from getting involved in the Bobian politics to an extent reasonably possible. I'm sure you can understand that given our current situation and past events, why we are so focused with the happening on our continent for the time being- which does not leave us the freedom of making commitments involving the use of military force. Please consider our offer. Perhaps, if possible a chat between representatives of our two nations could be arranged, please tell me if you'd be interested. Once again, we hope that you get your government back promptly. We are sure that they are all safe and sound, and wherever they may currently be, they are making their way back to Neu Theben as quickly as possible. Cordially, Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

I have given myself the freedom of writing an offer for Feudalism, and telling them we wouldn't mind negotiating NAP.

Comments, please.

Edit: changed the tone a bit in the part about us: "willing to accept your proposal". Made some grammatical and structural corrections.

	25-05-2003 10:09									#139
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Compensations in the battlefield - change that to compromises.

The rest is great

Btw, I had no idea that it cost us less to establish an embassy in their capital than it'd cost them to establish one in our capital. I thought that the cost of embassy missions is symmetric.

	25-05-2003 13:22									#140
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I still don't like the tone. When we say what we are willing to accept, we imply an unwillingness to accept less. I like the idea of appealing to ND's sense of fairness and desire for us to view them as having tried to be fair with us to get a little more out of them. But as Aeson said, I don't think the amount of gold involved is enough to be worth any significant risk of damaging our relations with ND over.

	25-05-2003 14:36									#141
	Got spare money?

I hardly think this kind of message would hurt the relations with ND: We made a better offer for Feudalism, gave our consent for NAP. A tone of a request/demand can easily be ignored in the midst of all the serious issues.

But I did made some changes, so that we could all be more comfortable with the message.

quote: But as Aeson said, I don't think the amount of gold involved is enough to be worth any significant risk of damaging our relations with ND over.

Nathan- you imply that we let anyone "walk over us" whenever we are dealing with modest amounts of gold instead of confronting them, or at least not telling them we're quite dissatisfied of their actions.

	25-05-2003 14:57									#142
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I'm inclined to think ND probably already has plans for Feudalism and, in any case, I don't especially like the mixed messages that would be inherent in making a lower offer after they seemed to agree to one offer and then backed out of it. How does this sound? My goal is to get something out of the situation without risk of antagonizing them, and maybe even to leave them feeling like they still owe us something (which could help in future negotiations).

quote: Greetings Borc, Darekill, and People of Neu Demogyptica, We are sorry to hear about your recent crisis in government. You have all of our best wishes in resolving the matter and restoring order to your great nation. In regard to Borc’s recent message to us, while we would certainly welcome an alliance if Roleplay moves against us, we consider it prudent to keep out of your continent’s politics to the extent that we can for the time being. We have our own war to fight, and while the tide is now moving in our favor, we still have a long way to go before we can consider the Voxian threat eliminated. (And, as I noted before, the absence of the 200 gold we had expected to get from you has slowed down our efforts a bit. Not only did it cost us directly, but it undercut our ability to invest in obtaining more gold and production over time.) We hope you can see the sense in our desire not to get involved in a new fight while we are still very much caught up in an existing one. The idea of your establishing an embassy in our lands is also something we view as a mixed blessing. On one hand, it would be useful in facilitating future in-game diplomatic agreements. But on the other, it would give you additional information about the current state of our capital. So while we certainly do appreciate the gesture, we are more skeptical of its practical value. If you would be willing to give us the gold it would cost you to establish the embassy and let us be the ones to establish it, that would achieve the same goal of opening up future in-game diplomatic possibilities at the same cost in gold to you, but would be clearly and uniformly a positive event from our perspective. Further, to the extent that establishing an embassy is a little bit cheaper for us than for you, it would even provide a way to make up for a small part of the gold we had hoped to get without costing you extra. I can’t promise that such a gesture would completely compensate in our people’s minds for the loss of an expected 200 gold at a critical time. But we do understand the awkwardness of the situation you found yourselves in, and we very much appreciate your desire to resolve the situation honorably. It is our hope that our two nations will continue to enjoy a peaceful and mutually beneficial relationship. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	25-05-2003 15:10									#143
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Nathan- you imply that we let anyone "walk over us" whenever we are dealing with modest amounts of gold instead of confronting them, or at least not telling them we're quite dissatisfied of their actions.

I don't view a procedural misfire on ND's part as letting them "walk over us". If it looked like they had deliberately intended to mislead us, I would view the matter very differently. And I do want to make sure they understand that we aren't happy about the situation; I just want to do it in a way that doesn't risk sounding hostile or demanding.

	25-05-2003 20:04									#144
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I like the message Nathan- we should add that we might be interested in a NAP, other than telling them we're not interested in an alliance against RP right now.

I bet they'll like to hear that instead of just "no MPP, for now"

I also think we shouldn't just imply that they hurt us with their backing down- we should say it explicitly, and not just as a remark, where it can easily be ignored

And why not include an invitation for a chat- I'm sure this could help get our relations back on track, and give us an opportunity to better understand what's going on- in ND, and on Bob in general.

Last edited by zeit on 25-05-2003 at 20:22

	26-05-2003 07:37									#145
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A NAP could bite us if a ND/GoW alliance makes ND the monster civ of the game and we're committed not to do anything about it. Keep in mind that those two civs, between them, get two of the best UUs in the game with Chivalry, and RP's GA is a long way off unless they can get it with wonders. Certainly, a NAP is something that calls for some serious discussion in its own right before we propose it.

Do you really think ND could read my message and not realize that having the deal fall through hurt us? Personally, I think you blow the damage out of proportion in your version. Yes, not having that gold made our risk a little greater, but as things turned out, I don't think we lost a single unit more or killed a single unit less as a result.

I have nothing against the idea of asking them if they would be interested in a chat, as long as we're careful what tone we take in the chat. We don't want to sound upset enough with them that it makes us a threat to them.

	26-05-2003 13:25									#146
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I'm starting to agree with Nathan's assessment of the damage. I think that the loss of 200 gold could be expressed by getting the temple in Sandstorm one turn earlier (and thus eliminating the SS stack one turn earlier) and getting a cat to the spinebreakers earlier to possibly destroy the spinebreakers stack one turn earlier.
That's not that much damage, and we should be fair and not blow it out of proportions.

However, I disagree on the matter of the NAP. RP has more power than either ND or GoW, and with all those walls they have on their northern front, it's gonna be hard for ND and GoW to break through. Not impossible, not anywhere near it - but hard. In 20 or so turns, even if war breaks out as soon as we sign the NAP, I don't think that ND would make a real monster civ yet. Yes, it's a gamble, but I think it's worth it.
IMHO it's better than not addressing a NAP at all and making ND wary of us, anyway.

	26-05-2003 13:29									#147
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Anyway, let's get this over with by the time that we finish our next turn (currently Vox has the game). We took long enough, ND might be thinking that we don't care that much and that they can get away with it (or alternatively, that we're stalling because we need time to pull something off).

	26-05-2003 23:52									#148
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I don't suppose we propose ND a NAP- just that we tell them we can negotiate it. We can also tell them we would like to keep this agreement a secret- after all, we're not planning on Invading ND anytime soon. Both RP and GoW (and even Lego) make better targets for us after we're through with Vox, so I think mentioning this to them is important- as this was their greatest concern.

Think about it from ND's perspective- what they probably want to hear most right now is that we don't plan to attack them, and thus we might help them...

Just telling them we are not interested, don't care so much about what they have done wrong to us gives a general feeling of insignificance to our message.

I agree with Shiber though, we must send it ASAP.

	27-05-2003 00:33									#149
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Alright, let's get this thing done already. This storm is taking way too long to gather...

	27-05-2003 16:18									#150
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This has taken us way too long...
Okay, time's up! Nathan, please send your message, along with a paragraph noting that we can negotiate a NAP, if you don't mind.

Geez, people, it's been a week since ND's last message! Can't we get anything done on time here other than play our turns and deal with the immediate issues that show up in-game?