16-07-2003 20:54									#181
	Got spare money?

Note that Arnelos dodged all of the questions regarding the Vox-GS war.

I'm suprised they think they can hold out, I would think they would be begging us to help. But if all they see are ten riders, perhaps they can hold out.

How much would it cost to inspect toledo? Very curious as to the defense there.

	16-07-2003 21:02									#182
	Support Apolyton

I don't think we can spare the cash. We're going to need every penny we can scrape up for our invasion.

I noted the accusation re: RP promising help to Vox, and the lack of rebuttal. I almost brought it up, but decided against it.

I think our landing will be the best response.

-Arrian

	16-07-2003 21:07									#183
	Increase Your PM Length

Would be nice to get to the bottom of the vox help. I think both RP and Lego helped them. Lego moreso, why else would they lead the voxodous other than to cover up their own misdeeds.

Unfortunately Vox either won't tell us, or will but we can't use it as a declaration of war because it would kill the source. But maybe since we've been on good terms with them recently they would let us know if RP was invovled.

	16-07-2003 21:29									#184
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

here's a summary of the chat with arnelos earlier, the log is long so here is the stuff that I think is important.

- RP are making a point of GoW's millitary being away from home, I guess their initial strategy is to make an attack on gow look appealing.
- RP knew ND were going to attack them, NAP ran out and no communications for a few turns.
- Arnelos is optomistic about their chances vs riders as they are fighting on jungle and mountains, may loose Toldeo.
- GoW suck and have just been building millitary the whole game.
- RP have catapults but they are too far away, probably don't have too many catapults.
- RP can easily take out a force of 10 Ansars in the west.
- RP think they will be able to whether the initial attack but will loose long term due to GA's
- RP aren't very strong navaly, I'd guess they just have the 3 galleys they mentioned a while ago
- Bob has been a non-stop arms race since Lux were defeated.
- RP deny accusations that they promised help to Lux and Vox.
- RP offered GoW a 50 - 50 split of bob but gow declined.
- RP had a MPP with gow since before the Lux war.
- GoW have broken a MPP by their actions

Last edited by OPD on 17-07-2003 at 16:57

	16-07-2003 21:47									#185
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Good stuff, OPD. Thanks for organizing it.

-Arrian

	16-07-2003 22:53									#186
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thanks for that OPD.

However, it might be easier if you edit the summary so that instead of writing "They" you put the acronym of the team. It might help avoid any possible confusion.

	17-07-2003 10:27									#187
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Spectacularly done, OPD. Don't worry, we are nobodies spies here. The contents of that chat will stay here, right guys?

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Note that Arnelos dodged all of the questions regarding the Vox-GS war.

Arnelos was not around during that period. He is being truthful as far as I can tell. He did acknowledge the 'dumping on'.

Except for this bit

quote: *Arnelos> RP participated in the joint chats where everyone was trying to help out first Lux, then Vox

very curious, and close to the truth I would imagine. Line up 3 conspirators in a room with the 'victim' who is about to lose a war, badly... the 3 look at each other. Which of them is going to step in front of the mob that is coming for blood? Or, this chat happened when they first set foot on Bob, and the consensus was, 'yup, you should leave and attack GS. We'll help. Promise.'

	17-07-2003 13:19									#188
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think it was rather the latter: You leave and attack GS, and we'll help. But that doesn't matter.

I like the chat a lot, with one minor remark: I wouldn't have told them we established an embassy, it will probably take a couple of turns before they had found out themselves and by that time it would have been too late. But as I said, that's very minor.

One thing I am concerned about is the MPP: Note that Arnelos says it is still active. An MPP doesn't mean that you have to attack your friends enemies, only that when attacked, you can depend on your friend to help you out. Nowhere does it say that you can't attack your friend... In Civ, you can only close a MPP after a NAP, but in PTW? So it could very well still be active, what they are concerned... a good thing we have a NAP with GoW, or the moment we invaded RP, they would have a valid reason to declare war on us. (not that that would do them any good)

As the Inchon comment: I would have preferred you asking if they were prepared to perform an Inchon maneuver on ND or GoW, instead of asking if they were prepared to experience one, but that's alright. A good try, unfortunately Arnelos didn't bite (he took it as you asking if RP can invade the rest, which was very nice in the end. But if this log gets analysed, some RPer will pick up the true meaning)

DeepO

	17-07-2003 13:59									#189
	Remove this text

I think OPD was indicating they should be ready for a flanking maneuvre. Arnelos totally missed the prompt.

The MPP issue is interesting. If GoW attacked with one, then their word is trash. Sorry. Trying that stunt is a Togas move. Any civ who insists otherwise is not to be trusted. *Ahem*

It looks like the MPP is being acknowledged. Too bad. I hoped we could make some progress with GoW. Ahahahahahahaahahahaahahahahahaha *what folly*

We can trust them precisely so far as we can kill them faster then they can kill us. Or so it would seem.

However, as with some other PR campaigns in the past, let us wait to see what turns out, shall we?

	17-07-2003 16:53									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Togas sent me the MPP between RP and GoW, rather surprisingly it only refers to ND, is only activated on an attack not a declaration of war and...... runs out in 2 turns. Puts GoW in the clear in terms of sticking to the wording of a deal. I'm guessing ND are aware that they can't attack for a few turns.

Also while talking to togas I lied to him about GS. I had already said I couldn't comment but then he asked whether we could be open to negotiations/discussions on anything, I figure he was asking whether we had any agreements with gow or nd, didn't want to imply that we might have a secret deal with gow so I lied and said we are open to anything. Didn't know what else to say and couldn't damage the secrecy of the NAP with gow.

	17-07-2003 16:56									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well we are open to discussion on anything at least - even if the dicussion goes:

RP: Would you consider X
GS: No. Die, Spanish pigs!

So I don't think that's lying. It's not as though you are saying that we are free to sign any proposals from RP that interest us.

	17-07-2003 17:10									#192
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

OPD, that was not a lie: we're officially open for any discussion... as long as they don't expect us to commit to it.

Of course you can't imply anything about the deal with GoW, but you haven't, and I don't think he was asking that... I think it was more Togas' way of saying: "hey, our relations haven't been super the past few months, and yes, we might even have considered attacking you, but if you could help us out now, we could even 'give' you South Bob if you destroy ND and GoW for us"

As to the specific wording of the MPP: no wonder they don't post this on the public forum, it was a very specific deal towards ND only. GoW has a point that if ND attacks RP after GoW and RP are already at war, there is little need to activate this 'MPP'. And no, nowhere is said about any NAP either, they played it smart, although not so honorable. But they don't really break treaties, just break promises of treaties before they are ratified... not the same thing.

DeepO

	17-07-2003 17:19									#193
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by OPD Togas sent me the MPP between RP and GoW, rather surprisingly it only refers to ND...

Now I'm 99% sure that he edited it before he sent it to you.

	17-07-2003 17:36									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

could very well be true... where's the 'pages of text' GF was referring too?

DeepO

	17-07-2003 17:40									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I thought the 5 pages of text was in their proposed NAP (as described by GoW), which seems to have been more of an alliance (moreso than a MPP and NAP), so there may well have been more details to work out in terms of agreeing to attack ND or us, tech sharing, research organisation, dividing up of spoils, borders, and of course the NAP/MPP part of it.

	17-07-2003 17:46									#196
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Now I'm 99% sure that he edited it before he sent it to you.

Do you think we should ask GoW for a copy they'd probably edit it too but there may be some discrepancies.

	17-07-2003 17:49									#197
	Increase Your PM Length

no copy asking from GoW, please. RP gave it to us, without us asking, GoW shouldn't know our diplomacy went this far!

If they give it to us, fine. Otherwise we just do with what we have

DeepO

	17-07-2003 19:43									#198
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have to say GoW knows what they're doing- the MPP smells like nothing more than anti-ND blocking manuever, so it seems that the 'spirit' of the treaty has no meaning if GoW and ND unite.

After all that this game has been to- I can hardly say RP has anything to cry on- especially when you consider that there was no sense of alliance or unity between them, so how come they expect that an MPP is also a NAP? especially when deals with ND, as saying: ND is a threat, we have to block their moves, this treaty doesn't serve any other purpose.

So I'd say that according to the wording it hasn't been violated, and also not according to its spirit, as far as I see it.

Also: check the GoW log, I got something interesting from UnO- as if he read our minds.

	17-07-2003 19:49									#199
	Put an end to popups!

Well, if you sign a limited MPP against a civ, and then your MPP partner ALLIES WITH THAT VERY CIV TO KILL YOU, I'd say you've been betrayed.

-Arrian

	17-07-2003 20:05									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Well, if you sign a limited MPP against a civ, and then your MPP partner ALLIES WITH THAT VERY CIV TO KILL YOU, I'd say you've been betrayed.

Not if the agreement ends before they do so- which is what UnO says in the last message.

	17-07-2003 20:08									#201
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It sounds to me that there were ~2 turns left to go. I guess it depends on who is counting, eh?

-Arrian

	17-07-2003 20:14									#202
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Or when do they actually strike...

	18-07-2003 08:33									#203
	Tired of ads?

It's rather pointless. GoW broke the MPP when they declared war, 2 (1? 3?) turns before the agreement would expire. They weren't breaking a NAP, they weren't not honoring a MPP, they were breaking an agreement still in effect by declaring war. They admit it.

The public debate on this is only going to get us into trouble. We don't trust GoW, and rightly so, but we should never let on that we don't trust them. Just always plan around GoW probably going back on their word. If they think they can deceive us, it should work out in our favor. They'll think we won't be prepared and be much more likely to go off half-assed in anything they do against us (like 10 Riders ), instead of properly planning things to be truely threatening to us.

The suprise will be that the suprise they plan is prepared for.

	18-07-2003 08:41									#204
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would like to see the accusation that RP assited Vox be answered, in some form, but we can't push for a response much more I would guess. Perhaps something along the private channels.

	18-07-2003 08:59									#205
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good point, sleepy. Hopefully we can get a better account of that soon. We can't force the issue though, or all we will get is more lies.

Everyone please stay tuned, there may be some block buster news coming from RP. Who is on and available to chat right now?

	18-07-2003 09:02									#206
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Good point, sleepy. Hopefully we can get a better account of that soon. We can't force the issue though, or all we will get is more lies. Everyone please stay tuned, there may be some block buster news coming from RP. Who is on and available to chat right now?

I would definately listen in, but may be hesitant to be a full blown participant-to avoid putting the ole foot in the mouth.

	18-07-2003 09:36									#207
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm online and available to chat. What's happening?

	18-07-2003 09:38									#208
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Me 2, what channel?

Mss

	18-07-2003 09:43									#209
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

/join #WWB warsaw

on Poly chat. Please observe. Topic is RP becoming a GS vassal.

	18-07-2003 09:47									#210
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither /join #WWB warsaw on Poly chat. Please observe. Topic is RP becoming a GS vassal.

does one just type that into the message box in the chat room? is the java one fine?