18-07-2003 11:16									#211
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Looks like I missed the chat. Sorry.

Do you think RP would be willing to gift cities to us? I was thinking something like the following could work:

We land a few forces next turn, or the turn after, and 'take' NM and Barcelona. Turn after, we 'take' Toledo. This allows RP to focus all their forces in the W by teleporting them, and we help deal with GoW who are now badly out of position to do anything for the next few turns. Not sure we can get to Toledo fast enough though. We could just throw it in GoW's face and make it obvious RP is giving cities to us. Might be enough to get GoW to break the NAP. We certainly wouldn't be breaking any treaties. Even if we lose Toledo to GoW, it serves a purpose, and really doesn't help them at all (if we've used all/most our cash).

We can't fight GoW right now, but maybe this will force them into either going after ND, or attacking us outright. They will basically have lost everything on 'their' side of RP to us, and probably wouldn't have much to gain from fighting RP, except to help out ND gaining territory.

Then we could supply RP with Catapults to help them fend off ND's initial invasion. Sign peace with RP, an ROP and we use their roads to help hit ND. Our Knights would be 6 movement, and that should be enough to deal with Ansars as long as RP doesn't lose a city right off.

I think we and RP could defend RP's land pretty well. We could also supply RP with Iron if they were to lose their Iron source, and only be out of the luxuries for a couple of turns.

Long term, the goal would be to keep RP relatively strong (one core on a river strong, if not even giving them land for a FP), so as to trump Lego's Voxian puppet, as well as help us fight ND/GoW. It would put us in the best possible position to fight ND/GoW IMO, and better yet, might help convince GoW to backstab ND themselves, as opposed to going to war with us while ND is occupied.

	18-07-2003 11:32									#212
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RP has units on that Galley right? What if we give Dissidentville to them, they give it back with their units inside, and teleport those units back to Pamplona?

What happens to a Galley in a city that is Gifted away if the capitol isn't coastal?

	18-07-2003 12:00									#213
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I am thinking this has definite possibilities. It may seem alien, but I do believe that the game is more important to this group of players (RP) than winning. I believe that we could trust them, if we gain what we need on Bob first. It is certainly better terms and conditions than GoW are offering.

I understand them. They are playing to spoil now. They know they are doomed not to win, but they are going to be happy to make sure that their patron does win. I have done that in MP myself.

I am also thinking that the cities given to us as a block will either drive GoW to attack us or to back off and attack ND.

They have said yes to the Crusader Fortress near New Madrid. They will give up land east of the mountains. I suggest we not push them to while that production capability is needed, but new Madrid soon, as soon as we have forces there to hold it. A Crusader Fortress should go down at NM 3 3 ASAP (or maybe 6 9, or both).

However, at this point, do we want to go down this road?

I am leaning towards it. It definitely trumps GoW's and ND's 'temporary' cities proposals. It also holds greater long term potential as we are picking up a viable vassal, while Vox is a basket case for Lego.

The arrangement would stay sealed until we give our blessing to reveal it.

Last thought. Vassals are not destined to always be so. The trick in this situation is to gain what we need on South Bob while they need us, but not so fast as to hurt their ability to fight. If we play this right, give them room to play the game, but keep the leash just short enough, this arrangement could easily go to the end of the game. If not? We have our Palace in South Bob and a hefty presense there to fight from.

	18-07-2003 12:09									#214
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I think Bilbao this turn, Toledo the next, and if GoW keeps moving S, NM the turn after. If GoW turns away, we could allow RP to keep NM/Barcelona indefinitely. They'll be more useful in RP's hands than ours. RP just has to show they are willing to do what it takes... whether or not it is required to go through with will depend on GoW.

	18-07-2003 12:14									#215
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NM and Barcelona are on the side of the line that we will want in the long term. We will want to give RP lands further West to make up for them, of course, but that coast is our destiny. I have known that since my first glimpse of the full map.

	18-07-2003 12:17									#216
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Look at the tile 2 2 3 of Bilbao. It is 12 MP by galley from Monsoon to there and back, with sea tiles to end turns on going there and coming back.

Addit: The same is true of the hill 6 9 of New Madrid from Whirlwind.

	18-07-2003 12:24									#217
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I was thinking long term... like we set up our Palace core 2333 of Imperial city... which is the best site on this map IMO. But I guess we could keep the coast just to keep our island that much safer.

	18-07-2003 12:34									#218
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NM69 would be perfect with the road 9 of NM of course, allowing us to drop off troops (who get to move) every 3rd turn. NM33 and Bilbao would be every 4th turn. If we get NM, we don't even need the road 9, but it's still useful.

Bilbao is serviceable, but put's our troops in a sorta bad position, exposed to the N, and we could end up losing Galleys (which end up sitting in the city when they make the drop) if Riders show up at the wrong time.

	18-07-2003 18:28									#219
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What about landing our stack of troops & settler at Elipolis 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4 (that's 8 of 'em) on the hill next to the gem mountain?

Then we march on ND's core. I like that better than Bilbao.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 05:01									#220
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I too, like Arrian, think we should aim at ND first: why bother with GoW now? why do you want them to break the NAP?

GoW is not a serious threat to RP's existence, not with the forces they have commited and not with their not-so-great determination, quite unlike ND, which seems to have thrown everything into attacking RP- and is relatively exposed. GoW has reserves, and can hurt us quite bad (on Bob) if we piss them off so that they choose to break the NAP- with a beachead destroyed, we lose our chance of fighting to help RP, and all that is left it the hope that GoW backstabs ND, and the vassalage RP promises us.

NO- we must make our destiny!


Why actually help RP remain strong? We want them to bear the brunt of the attack, right? This means RP will be hurt very badly- but it doesn't seem to bother them, and it shouldn't bother us, not for now at least.
We should focus on kicking the hell out of ND as fast as we could- so that their GA is all blown in the wind (more precisely- the storm ). ND is the stronger of the anti-RP alliance members, if they are having a hard time, which means losing cities and pulling troops back home- will GoW press on with the attack on RP? no way!
I'm sure we'll witness the sudden stop of the once charging Riders- I just can't see any other option for GoW- not with their 'allies' forces making a U-turn. With GoW forces stopping, RP should aim for quick-peace/timed cease-fire with GoW, while most of their surviving forces help us by attacking ND's army.

Our most immediate goals should be:

1) Making sure GoW and ND do not suspect anything.This means not having RP gift us any cities yet.

2) Have RP focus on slowing-downs GoW's army, diverting it towards the less important targets such as Bilbao, and trying to lure ND's army deeper to their territory, while trying to inflict as many casualties as possible on the enemy, perhaps even at the expense of loosing cities, workers, etc. remember: the most important thing right now is to make sure ND's army takes as long as possible to get back home, and that it is as small as possible when it does.

3) We make a suprise landing around ND's eastern border, and head flank speed towards their core- with one intent: gaining as much possible ground, hoping (with some good reason to, though) this manuever will catch ND off-guard, and would eventually cause GoW to stop attacking RP.

	19-07-2003 05:20									#221
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3b) And cause GoW to backstab ND.

	19-07-2003 05:37									#222
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GoW is a threat to RP. 14 Riders RP can deal with, but only by risking their core to ND's stack. They can deal with ND's stack too, but not with their forces split. We take care of the E for them, and they take care of the W, then we use their road network and the one ND is building for a straight shot into ND's core.

We are going to take hits from Ansars on flatlands over and over advancing from the E. Also, they pillage a few roads, and we are stuck in the open (or without cat support at all) for 10 turns. By the time we get to ND's core, our stack will be outnumbered. If GoW turns on us too, we lose the whole stack and don't take a single city.

Better to help RP kill a good portion of ND's troops by allowing them to focus on defense of their W front. With us helping using 3 and 6 movement we get ROP style, and then take ND's core after ND's main stack is dead. We'll lose far less troops.

We don't particularly want GoW to break the NAP... but if they do we can deal with it (much) more easily than RP can deal with it now.

	19-07-2003 06:23									#223
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Let's try and focus this discussion in one thread. I suggest the other one (RP Vassal thread).

Good points made by all... we have much to discuss (which is why I kinda want it all in one spot).

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:08									#224
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Yes, thank you, Arrian, I can't keep track of it all.

	19-07-2003 07:30									#225
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I was even having trouble, and I've been thinking about this all day.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:52									#226
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Yes, this thread is best kept for the diplomatic situation now that another exists where the tactics are being discussed.

Draft treaty received from Arnelos. And wow. He wrote this unprompted by me. It effectively cedes control of the 'union' to GS in perpetuity.

I would advise that if we accept this, and it looks like it is the smart move to do so, that we always treat the nobles of Spain with utmost respect and take care that this relationship is good for RP.

My only reservation would be the ND lands going to RP, or all of them at any rate. I am leaning towards accepting New Madrid and Toledo from them so as to enable us to maintain that front and take load off of RP. Then later, we can offer them those areas back (with us keeping a couple of outposts on the coast) in exchange for lands in Central and Northern ND. If we can get that GL to rush the Palace where GoW used to be, heheheh...

Furthermore, the lands of their origin are no doubt of great importance to RP emotionally. It would secure their loyalty by being sensitive to that and their honour. Given the choice, they would gladly snap up the bits of the South and coast that we offer back.

	19-07-2003 07:55									#227
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Interesting, I must read...

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 07:59									#228
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I agree. One point that stuck out at me that we have to have changed is this:

quote: 1. If any nation should declare war upon either partner, the other partner is obligated to declare war upon the declaring power and come to the defense of its partner.

We need to explain to RP that we have a prior deal with GoW which we can't break off at this time.

Explain how we plan to keep GoW from being a factor, or needing to attack us and break the deal themselves. Also that we'll need at least 1 turn notice to ND to break off our luxury trade.

Also I would prefer it if the clause to include something along the lines of "Either team may allow the other to forgo declaring war if it serves the alliance". It may serve us better if RP doesn't have to declare war with Lego in the future, and thus can be our go between (trading, investigating cities, ect.)... situations like that.

	19-07-2003 08:01									#229
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Well, now. That's what I'd call a Grand Alliance, alright.

I agree with you, NYE, we don't necessarily just want coastal lands, we probably want all of northern Bob, with a Palace move.

The rest of it looks good, although I'd amend clause 2 of section 1 (neither nation shall even declare war on the other) to include the possibility of a DoW being necessary for cooperative purposes - such as maybe exchanging some cataputs or something along those lines.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 08:02									#230
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Good points. I missed commenting on the MPP clause. It is rough, but a place to start.

And of course both of us can agree to a 'state of war' for tactical or mechanical considerations. That should be added.

	19-07-2003 08:02									#231
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Doh! Yeah, I missed that one too... good catch Aeson.

-Arrian

	19-07-2003 09:05									#232
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I don't like the fact that we have to trade every tech we get with them, there is an escape clause, but both civs have to agree to that. screw that

	19-07-2003 09:51									#233
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I am thinking that we have to add a clause that, except for the NAP, any clause in the treaty is subject to other agreements that GS may have or enter into with other civs.

Like, we trade for tech with a NT clause. We can't break that to give the tech to RP. However, if this works, it would be in our interests to let RP have all the tech. That is one of the foundations of these situations that I have found in Real Time MP games.

	19-07-2003 10:42									#234
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I don't like the fact that we have to trade every tech we get with them, there is an escape clause, but both civs have to agree to that. screw that

To be honest, this is not an issue for me. This game won't be won by space race, and once ND and GoW are gone, nobody will be able to outresearch the Alliance.

	19-07-2003 10:52									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph To be honest, this is not an issue for me. This game won't be won by space race, and once ND and GoW are gone, nobody will be able to outresearch the Alliance.

Its more of a psychological stumbling block for me, trading two techs to their one (at least) but I can get over it

	19-07-2003 10:54									#236
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sleepy, Aeson and I are looking for hot chat action.

Poly server.

/join #GStalk merlin

	19-07-2003 10:54									#237
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quote: I am thinking that we have to add a clause that, except for the NAP, any clause in the treaty is subject to other agreements that GS may have or enter into with other civs.

I think we'd have to keep out of all long term agreements after this wouldn't we? EDIT: without this I mean

	19-07-2003 17:54									#238
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some comments (but these are probably not the most clear, I'm having a major hangover and can't think straight):

Article III:
- Not only what to research, but also how must be decided. So, not only common goals need to be discussed, but also how far the tech slider is set, what etas on techs will be.

- and indeed, we may be bound by other regulations with other countries (NDAs). We can't be forced in all circumstances, there has to be some escape clause

Article V
- with simply changing the first paragraph into "the other parther is obligated to assist when asked" we would get there. Indeed, declaring war is not always the best cause, or even possible

Article VI
so far so good, but I would add a clause, explicitely mentioning that RP agrees to leaving most of the land on Bob in our hand. We will do our best to stay honorable, but as ND will go first and GoW later, we will most likely first of all control ND land. As it reads now, if we don't attack GoW, we should cede control of nearly all the conquered land to RP.

Article VII
is missing... we need some points on agreements with other nations as well, and even on proposals from / to other nations. E.g. we can't have RP signing a MPP with Vox, if we want to invade them later on. Further, we can't have RP sell techs if we want to kepe them secret. Stuff like that.

Also, we probably need some clause that gives us access to their diplomatic intellilgence. I'm mighty curious to what happened with Vox (Lux I don't care that much, it didn't really affect us), and how RP conducted their diplomacy. Even if I don't consider us that bad in this area, they are better (although with the wrong 'image', and goals). We can use their expertise.

Article VIII
- Some paragraph on that we can't foresee all situations, and in case discussion occurs on some point not covered here, both will do their best to find a mutual beneficial solution, with GS having end-responsibility.

- something about secrecy. Even if it will become clear soon that both of us have allied, we should keep the details to our own. So let RP roleplay all they like in their private forum, this deal should not be published or given to other teams. Also, no talk about this to others.

- and finally, we need something in there that we can advise them in all situations, not only military. Seeing their land, they should have gotten the lead over us in this game, instead of having half our economy. They can use a little help. It's in our best interest to make RP strong as opposed to Lego, they have to want our help. (It will be a pain to put this non-arrogantly, though)

As to the notes:
1) may be best... if they want this grand alliance scheme, they should cede control of their slider to us (I mean, mutual agreement, and GS decides if not in agreement )

2) money is not really an issue for me. We don't demand them giving us all their cash, it's better to handle this case by case. Besides, they have no cash to give us, and we will most likely need our reserves for a while too.

--------------

Now with these comments done, I want to say one thing which worries me a bit. This proposal is not something that was fastly put together, it is way too detailed for that. Further, in order to come to us in this short notice, accepted or at least discussed in RPs forum, it has to be made a while back... meaning this thing is recycled. I'm not sure it was already offered to e.g. Lego, but I doubt that RP was discussing vasalizing themselves to us for days before... I wonder how many talks have been going on with RP about joining major alliances.

We know of GoW-RP alliance negotiations, so maybe it came from there. Meaning that if we sign this, GoW will have a pretty good idea how our relation with RP will be. And they can use this against us, by e.g. joining with Lego and Vox. This could become very interesting

DeepO

	19-07-2003 18:17									#239
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What about confidentiality? It'll be clear that we're coming to RP's aid, but do we really want everyone to know that they're also our new vassals?
I say we add an article to deal with confidentiality, which would clearly state that neither party is allowed to admit the existence of this treaty to anyone or discuss the details of the treaty with anyone, unless determined otherwise by a joint decision.

	20-07-2003 01:17									#240
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I am chatting with RP

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our own channel

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