09-02-2003 22:56									#301
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

the trade deal is in affect with GS

I am just not aware of any discussions between the two of us

Jon Miller

	09-02-2003 23:02									#302
	Tired of ads?

GS has agreed to the trade deal

I tink the 6 horus ahs gone by for this

Jon Miller

	09-02-2003 23:29									#303
	Increase Your PM Length

GS has agreed to the trade deal

I tink the 6 horus ahs gone by for this

Jon Miller

	10-02-2003 01:45									#304
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This note arrived from RP with the game save -

"We now have contact with your nation.

GoW informs us that you will give us contact with Gathering Storm, as a part of
the deal we made with them (they're paying on our behalf). Please send that to
us this turn.

I may have offered Mysticism, but I checked the offer screen again and it wasn't
there. If you see it there, it's a separate offer from the GS contact. We don't
need to make the trade now, just wanted to let you know that it was available.
We'd like to start negotiating a price.

We can also offer you Writing and Contact with Neu Dem, but those would be at a
higher price and we should begin discussing prices immediately. Please contact
Nuclear Winter to start negotiations with us.

--Togas"

	10-02-2003 06:15									#305
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I hope you don't mind Diss and jon, but I took the liberty of writing GS, given everything that was on the table. Here is what I sent. Hope you are OK with it.


nbarclay and Sir Ralph of Gathering Storm.

Greetings Gentlemen.

I have been pulled back from the Voxian Economic Council to talk to you about a number of things. I know that Dissident had tried to contact you, as well as Jon Miller, but many of us are busy with other RL activities, and a lot has happened in the game lately.

I sincerely hope we can look beyond past issues when I was representing Vox Controli. They were tense and untrusting times, and I apologize if I did anything personally to add to that atmosphere. I do believe we have entered a new era of trust and co-operation.

To business. We have completed Mysticism. We have sent it to you on the trade table as accepted. You need simply to accept to receive it.

We have also sent Warrior Code as part of the same package. This is where it gets complex, and why we need to talk - and perhaps even schedule a chat. Monday was a good evening last time - perhaps tomorrow night. Let us know. Anyways .. 'the facts, m'am, just the facts.'

You know we have met Lux. We had a deal with them - to complete a really misunderstood trade deal of old - where we would trade Mysticism for Warrior Code. Before that happened, we met GoW. After very little discussion, they proposed Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, and contact with you, in exchange for Mysticism and contact with RolePlay. The technology portion of that trade has gone through - BEFORE we really got down to discuss it or agree to it. So we also have Horseback Riding, which we will send next turn. (I'm not sure why you can't forward on a tech you received that turn - it shows that we have it.)

We explained to Lux what happened, and for good will, traded them Mysticism anyway for 20 gold.

In the meantime, and this baffles me - this is not acting guys - this really baffles me - we have been given contact with RolePlay. I figure they both have writing, and GoW just agreed to it. It didn't show up on any of our trade screens, and we obviously don't have writing yet. Any ideas?

Anyways - Roleplay was offering Mysticism, which we politely declined. They are also offering contact with NeuD. As are GoW for 20 gold.

Now - two key things we need from you.

One - a discussion on what we research next. We have put research on hold for one turn - waiting to hear from you. (Guess we had this one coming, eh. ) Our two choices are math (20 turns) or polytheism.(29). Or, we hang tight until writing is done (how long?) and we do one of philosophy or code of laws to get us both to the republic. Any thoughts? (Please think quickly - it is great for the treasury - but bad for science - and that means bad for both of us.)


end of horse number one (yes, a horse - even if we don't have any...)

(continued on second camel - er horse - yes, this is a horse)

Two - we have two - and now three civs clamoring at the door to meet you. You can see from the above that we have not held back any technology, nor used this leverage to our advantage in any way.That was the deal. But, with everyone trying to get in touch with you - that contact is now worth something - to both of us. We should try to maximize it terms of mutual benefit.

If you insist, and as part of the good will arrangement that now exists between us, we can and will simply provide contact if that is what you want. But that gets nothing for both of us. Also - one complication - as part of the Horseback Riding deal, GoW wants us NOT to trade it to you, so they can. We can explain that we are just going to give it to you, but they may not understand. The other civs on the continent (RP, NeuD, Lux, and GoW) seem to be in a dog-eat-dog kind of world, and may not understand our research pact. We know that Lux does not.

We can either tell GoW about our arrangement, and that there is no way we could hold back a tech. Or we can keep it from them, which makes contact with you more valuable. But we will be seen as being deceitful. GoW is fairly straightforwrd, but aggressive. Lux is a handful to deal with, and Neu D has written us and told us of similar issues. Neu D seems like a pretty solid civ, but we have had limited correspondence. And RolepLay- well who knows?

The real plus to opening up the trading arena is that with two of us wheeling and dealing - and then simply sharing what we get - we should be able to easily stay ahead of the others. But we - both Vox and GS - should get something in return for opening up that arena.

Also - we would like to eventually discuss expansion plans. If you recall the last discussion on border arrangements, the northen part of the neighbouring continent is very close to our capitol, and closer than the border towns down south. If we can get across and expand into that continent, with your assistance, then we can discuss a different split of the land in Estonia. I may be getting a bit ahead of the game here, but we should have some medium term goals.

Anyways, please get back to us regarding the first two points. If you think a chat will help, name a time tomorrow evening, and we will try to gather our limited supply of folks.

Take care. Hope all is well at your end.

Cheers! Beta

ps - I much prefer doing business this way and in this environment.

Last edited by Beta on 10-02-2003 at 06:24

	10-02-2003 19:00									#306
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And now a letter received from Roleplay. What is clear is that we are holding our own in the world in technology. Unless of course, they have a number of techs they didn't put on the table, which I doubt.

Also note that GoW offered contact with NeuD for 20 gold. But we still need to finish off the details of that last trade ...

And it looks like jon is going to get some squid.

BTW - I passed this note onto nathan barclay of GS, for their consideration along with the things I asked them about in the above letter.

RolePlay's letter:

Diplomatic contact, and the meeting fo the tribes
My dear Friend BetaHound, representative of the great Voxians,

It is with great pleasure that after a terrible accident that kept me away from travels and work, I am once again capable of starting diplomatic contact with the Voxians.
The kingdom of the Warriors promised us that they could take our messengers to meet your people. This has pleased us greatly, as we are always eager to contact other tribes, even more a kingdom like that of yours.
Also, the warriors told us they could arrange so that your kingdom would intermediate a meeting between our people and a strange nation of the name Storm gatherers or something like this... we would like to know the specifications of such a meeting.
Also, we think that this is just a great moment to prepare a strong relationship between our nations.
We ask that the Almighty Voxians consider the following:
Technology trade: we ask that your Wisemen list the knowledges the Voxians dominate, so that we can set up a deal. We prefer to exchange knowledge, but if not, we will be happy to sell the Voxians Writing for 100 gold nuggets,Mysticism for 75 gold nuggets or we could arrange a meeting between the Arabs and the Voxians for 75 gold nuggets
We ask for a non-aggression pact of 30 turns so that we can put into paper what is already set in talk. We also are willing to give your nation the status of most favored trade partner, and we would like to know what deals the great Voxians offer to us.

Now I shall bid you farewell, as I have to start preparing the gifts that I shall take personally to His Lordship johnmiller.

Until soon, my friend!
Nuclearis Winterius II,
Diplomat

	10-02-2003 21:16									#307
	Got spare money?

Received from redstar1 of Legoland? how do you gys feel about this?

Telegram....
Hi, Foreign Minister from Legoland here! Just looking to see if you guys are interested in a 4000/3950BC minimap exchange?

	10-02-2003 23:04									#308
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

why do they want our minimap?

We aren't that far from map making. We can wait until the appropiate technology I feel. We refused trading minis before, we may as well stay consistant.

	10-02-2003 23:07									#309
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I prefer not to buy writing because we can get it from GS and we already have mysticism.

And people are throwing that preferred trading partner term around too loosely. I thought that is what Lux said.

	11-02-2003 00:20									#310
	Remove this text

Diss - I agree with everything in your last two posts.

	11-02-2003 17:26									#311
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Also had this pm from Ghengis. We never got a chance to talk. I will try later today. I am away from a computer until 9pm this evening (est).

What is interesting is that they want to offer mathematics for mysticism. I thought we had already traded it to them as part of the last deal, but then I noted that no-where in his proposed deal di it mention myst. We should just play dumb - and say OK to math for myst. If one of you are talking to hgim - go ahead and offer that.

His note:

Trade Deal for Mathematics
Need to see if I can talk to you in the chatroom about trading Mathematics for Mysticism.
__________________

	11-02-2003 19:20									#312
	Got spare money?

note

I got a note from GS

they didn't accept the exchange because they wanted to hvae the trade deal formal like

here is what they suggest for formal terms
quote:

(1) Gathering Storm and Vox Controli hereby formally agree to give each other all technologies discovered, through whatever means, for the duration of this agreement.

(2) This agreement may be cancelled by either team under the following conditions. (a) The team wishing to cancel the agreement must provide a minimum of ten turns' notice. (b) Both sides, and especially the side initiating cancellation, are required to act in good faith to ensure that the treaty will be ended (or transitioned to some other arrangement) in a way that is equitable to both. Both agree not to manipulate the timing of tech discovery, tech trades with other parties, the ending of the deal itself, or any other factor in such a way as to obtain an unfair advantage over the other.

Jon Miller
ps they will have writing in 3 turns

	11-02-2003 20:00									#313
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, their formal agreement sounds fine to me. What do you all think?

	11-02-2003 22:38									#314
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I just talked to Togas and Dejon. They want to know why we dont send them the contact.

	11-02-2003 23:00									#315
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

we are I beleive

it just takes a turn or so

Jon Miller

	11-02-2003 23:00									#316
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

(mainly our players did not get instructions to do so first)

Jon Miller

	11-02-2003 23:13									#317
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Jon are you online? Did you get the e-mail to talk to them on irc?

I am on irc right now

#civ3rp-vox

	11-02-2003 23:17									#318
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am online

but don't have MIRC available on this machine

Jon Miller

	11-02-2003 23:18									#319
	Got spare money?

I can post here

I think we decided to send them the contact info

but hadn't done it yet (failure of communication)

Jon Miller

	11-02-2003 23:18									#320
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

ok

	11-02-2003 23:24									#321
	Inflate your Upload Space

what is the deal with roleplay?

	11-02-2003 23:33									#322
	Remove this text

I am not sure

say that we thought we were just dealing with GoW

Jon Miller

	12-02-2003 04:01									#323
	Inflate your Upload Space

yeah I know. Whoever plays the turn should put up contact with GS this turn to both roleplay and GOW.

	12-02-2003 07:42									#324
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sorry guys - I thought I had copied this over to here first thing this morning. Here is nbarclay's note, whcih jon has given a precis on earlier.

Tech Exchange
Greetings BetaHound, Jon, and People of Vox Controli,

While trying to address the trade situation, we of Gathering Storm realized that no formal agreement has ever been drawn up regarding our tech sharing arrangement. We have a general understanding to share all techs our two teams obtain at least for the time being, but that leaves room for possible misunderstandings later on. Of particular concern was making sure you do not view this as a game-long commitment on our part, since we prefer to maintain some flexibility as game conditions change. (After all, there could be more than 3500 years to go before this ends.)

Rather than risk the possibility that our teams might be working from different understandings of what has been agreed to, we've decided to defer accepting your tech offer for the moment while we try to clarify the agreement. Sir Ralph and I submitted the following proposal for ratification, and the vote thus far has come back strongly in support.

quote:

(1) Gathering Storm and Vox Controli hereby formally agree to give each other all technologies discovered, through whatever means, for the duration of this agreement.

(2) This agreement may be cancelled by either team under the following conditions. (a) The team wishing to cancel the agreement must provide a minimum of ten turns' notice. (b) Both sides, and especially the side initiating cancellation, are required to act in good faith to ensure that the treaty will be ended (or transitioned to some other arrangement) in a way that is equitable to both. Both agree not to manipulate the timing of tech discovery, tech trades with other parties, the ending of the deal itself, or any other factor in such a way as to obtain an unfair advantage over the other.


If this is acceptable to you, please re-offer the techs you offered this turn and we can pick up from there. We're expecting Writing in three turns, and can forward it to you then. (It would probably be better if you don't include Horseback Riding just yet, given the confusion that surrounded your getting it and the fact that our need for it is not urgent.) If this is too far from what you had in mind for you to consider it acceptable, we'll need to try to iron out the differences in what our teams had in mind.

In regard to suggestions for what tech you should research next, I'll have to address that issue separately. The situation is complex enough, especially with the possibility of trades in addition to what our two civs research ourselves, that we haven't yet reached a firm conclusion for what to suggest to you.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	12-02-2003 07:43									#325
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ok I have the game save. let me take a look at it.

I suggest we research something

	12-02-2003 07:49									#326
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Diss - I have the save too. Maybe we should go to a chat and discuss - or do we do it here?

	12-02-2003 07:54									#327
	Support Apolyton

already sent out

	12-02-2003 07:55									#328
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

here is what I think. We should wait to get writing from GS and one of us research philosophy and the other code of laws

	12-02-2003 08:26									#329
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The FA and trade situation is complex. I will post a summary of the situation prior to the last game turn - as far as I can intepret.

In the meantime - this received from Legoland (via e-mail as my PM mailbox filled up. )

Your 'ugliness' is in refernce to me playing Ghengis Khan in the misfits game - and man is he uggggly.

This is the message:

My dear Sir,

The fact that I'm not approaching you with the well deserved "Your ugliness" title is because I want to discuss other issues than those related to the "Misfits" game. I hope you will forgive me for this lack of respect and will keep sending your beatifully exotic presents to my hot mother-in-law

As you know it, I'm a member of Legoland. It is true that I am not an ambassador to your team, so maybe you can take this as an "unofficial" approach. Nevertheless, if we agree I assure you the deal will become official.

A little background: we are a peaceful nation and our purpose is to build mutually beneficial relations with all the other civs. We are also not very far away from the great invention called "Map Making" and sending out galleys to explore the world. We would like to have official contact with your great civ, so we could trade techs and goods. However, to find you sooner rather than later, we would like to know where exactly you are. Hence the proposal: would you like to exchange your 3950 BC minimap with ours?

To prove that our intentions are good, I can assure the Voice that:
1. We won't show your minimap nor will we talk about it to any other team
2. We have no intentions to settle on your continent.
3, We have no intentions to attack you ( for now )
(we expect of course the same behaviour from your side)

If you want to show the content of this PM to your team to get their approval to the deal, feel free to do so (with the exception of the comments in regard to my mother-in-law, please! )

Cheers,
Tiberius
Military Architect of Legoland

	13-02-2003 04:30									#330
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

same as before. mentionwe do look forward to diplomatic relations with them. But we are against mini-map trading until we recieve map making or research it.