27-01-2003 13:15									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I desperately want to make this chat. But here are my views. Take note of this Jon, so you know how I feel. If we go peace we go all the way. I don't want any pussyfooting around. I don't want any minor trade deals. I want a full partnership with GS.I want to go all the way with this alliance/partnership. And included in this I propose we trade screen shots. This should eliminate a lot of mistrust between our 2 nations. I know it's not in the spirit of the game, but I feel we must do this to move peace forward. And I want an alliance of sorts. We become long term partners. At least until the industrial age. We agree not to attack each other before then. And as you guys discussed we will form a trade system that boosts our status. We finish our committment with Lux, and place our trade deals with GS ahead of Lux. And going this peace "all the way" theme, I want total agreement on settlement sites. We both want that fish/wheat site so we need to reach an agreement on that. Perhaps they can offer something small and we can leave that for them and settle everything else north of the mountains. Make sure you guys work this out. Don't get me wrong, I support peace. The only reason I was wary was because of vel is on that team. And he has made threads and stategy guides about early conquest. But I like nbarclay. He seems to be peaceful minded. The next point is a biggie. The Lux situation. While Lux giving us Iron Working right off the bat was cool, I really haven't heard much from them. So because the lack of communication, I'm not entirely sure we can trust them. So one thing we can bring up in the chat tomorrow is my and (our) fear that GS and Lux will use that contact information and form a trade alliance and leave us out. I'm still not sure how we can work this out. But I think there are enough techs that we can arrange a 3 way parallel research path. This would take communication between all 3 teams at the same time and some study of the tech tree. But so far Lux hasn't disclosed that much about their nation and their tech status. I would like a little more honesty from them. So I would not like to give our contact with Lux to GS, but they won't like that, and I don't blame them. They have no way of telling if we are trading their techs to Lux. There must be a solution to that Lus/Vox/GS thing, I just can't figure it out. I wish we had more contact with Lux. Then we could speed up this 3 way parallel research path.

yes same here

I think it is either alliance with GS, or war (And war soon)

and nbarklay seemed to be saying that too

and I know that you are not scared, I sort of 'added' that in in the case to try and push them a little

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 13:16									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident one more thing, what should I do with the turn? I'll play the turn. I'll wait until morning to send it. I think you guys worked a lot out. I'll go ahead and put up Iron Working. If the deal falls through tomorrow night we can always cancel it next turn.

bput up ironworking

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 13:17									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident P.S. I don't fear that team . I was just wary of Vel and his ealry conquest stategies he has posted about. I am certain we can take them on the tough terrain. The only problem our immortals would have is in the open desert and grassland south of the mountains. but a complete alliance/partnership will be more beneficial than complet conquest really. But it would have to be complete. The 2 teams would essentually have to act like 1 team. And that is still difficult, because they want to win the game. But I'd imagine we can trust them for a while. But if they start falling far behind the other civs, they may do something drastic . But I don't see that happening.

yes, the act like one team is what I am now imagining

Iw as just imagining it research wise, but I see now that it woul dhave to be in all ways

Jon Miller

	27-01-2003 13:17									#214
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and I to would rather not trade Lux to GS until we are sure of the alliance

jon Miller

	27-01-2003 13:27									#215
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what we can try to do tomorrow is delay the talk about trading contact until all 3 of us can meet together for a trade discussion in some way. But it is something to be aware of tomorrow. I don't want them to feel like we are going to go and trade their hard earned techs away for an advantage.

As for the turn they had already have put alphabet up, so I went ahead and put up Iron Working. The turn will complete next turn, so I hope we are all agreed on this.

	27-01-2003 18:58									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident whew! What exactly is the problem with Lux Beta? Have you had any other contact with them that is relevant.

Other than Trip's god complex?

I had a long chat with Calc yesterday, and then Jon and I continued it with Calc and BFM. The long and short of it is -

They don't think that IW (or what we had left to research) and Pottery for 10 gold and 1 gpt, was a good deal for them. We agree.

They think the deal was the above, plus we research mysticism and give it to them. They admit that it is a crummy deal for us, but they say we agreed to it.

We say - no - we agreed that the initial deal - and the mysticsm research was simply part of a longer-term trading arrangement, as we thought they had agreed to.

I have checked over the PM's sent both ways - and that is clearly the intent. Heck, they even recommended we research mysticism - saying it wasn't a piority for them (see their PM posted much earlier in this thread). They see such a deal as 'socialistic' and insist on tech for tech trades - ie a series of mini-deals. their concern is that one of the partners may skimp on research - and stockpile gold - at the expense of the other research partner. Hence their insistence on one-for-one deals.

That is what led to the discussion about what will even out the mysticism deal - with them offering up warrior code (and maybe cash), and/or Alphabet (see options above).

Besides - they are clearly playing broker in between themselves and Neu D.

And they are waaaaayyyy too eager in my view to make contact with GS. The sooner we get galleys and meet some other civs, the better.

	27-01-2003 19:00									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident As for the turn they had already have put alphabet up, so I went ahead and put up Iron Working. The turn will complete next turn, so I hope we are all agreed on this.

I am in agreeance.

	27-01-2003 19:09									#218
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On the question of what to do - I am with Dissident. If we go peace and alliance, we go all the way. We max out what we can now as middleman between Lux and GS, without aggravating anyone as we head into the future, where GS and Lux will have met and could cut us out of the loop if they wanted to.

That would suggest my option 1 above, and doing the IW for alpha trade now. But we need to work out all the other aspects of peaceful co-existance, including yes - possibly trading maps as confirmation.

I shared and still share your sentiments about GS's early rush, Dissident. I have read Vel's stuff as well. That is my only niggling concern over the IW trade.

And I say the mountains are the dividing line - let's share maps and count tiles. I bet you it is a pretty even split.

And - we start talking to other civs. We need some future insurance. I am worried about Lux and GS getting together and taking us out. It would be in their best interests, and I still think that big 'member' teams will stick together. I may be off base here, but I would sure like to have Neu D ready to step in if we get rushed by GS and Lux simultaneously.

	27-01-2003 19:21									#219
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Jon - will you let us know about a FA chat with GS?

	27-01-2003 22:56									#220
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So it sounds like we can get a better partnership with GS- if they can trust us after this.

Again remind them we were wary because of known strategies of early conquest strategies of some of their members. If it helps ease tensions I would like to exhange screen shots. This will be necessary to figure out how we are going to settle this continent. I won't accept just being a vassal state. We are trying to win as well. So I want an even deal with regards to land area. The screen shots will help with this, we cannot wait until map making. I know we can't do much about the jungle . I can only hope our fast workers can catch us up. It would be nice if we could even add up the tiles and figure out the middle point. I hate to concede the fish/wheat site, but perhaps they can offer us something for it. Our settler is still on his way there.

The GS/Alphabet trade should ease their tensions a bit. Let them know we had no intention of attacking their lands. We only wanted to defend our lands.

Our best bet may be this agreement with GS instead of Lux. Lux isn't as friendly as I'd hope they would be. So we may need this alliance to catch up to the rest of the world. So do whatever it takes to mend past wounds. Remind them that we disclosed quite a bit of information last night like Iron sources and the fact that Lux is seperated by water. Remind them that we gave this information out in order to gain their trust.

Last edited by Dis on 27-01-2003 at 23:01

	28-01-2003 10:20									#221
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Jon_Miller> ah, OK
Jon_Miller> Have most of you read or otherwise followed the discussion that I and nbarclay had last time?
asleepathewheel> yes
zeit> I consider myself informed, hope its enough
Jon_Miller> (BTW, I think that the VEC does differently than the GS one in that our play the game and I don't think that GS one does)
Jon_Miller> ok
Jon_Miller> so than I guess that what this is a discussion is for is for an alliance between our two nations
SirRalph> I read all notes and discussions too
Jon_Miller> one, that I feel would be advantageous for us both
Jon_Miller> now some of the issues that nbarclay presented to me is that you might find us untrustworthy?
Jon_Miller> or that some of you might not be as certain about the benefits of an alliance?
Jon_Miller> well, IW is already heading for your capitol
nbarclay> Pardon me. I've had a couple people from GS pass me notes in other IRC windows.
Jon_Miller> so that shold help some
Jon_Miller> OK
nbarclay> There are really three main issues that have caused problems with trust that I can see off the top of my head.
nbarclay> 1) Vox's initial claim to respect our right to explore and hoping we would respect yours, and then blocking our explorer while continuing to explore yourselves.
Jon_Miller> ok
Jon_Miller> I can seek to address that
nbarclay> 2) The slowness of some of the diplomatic negotiations - sometimes it seems as if you couldn't do a better job if you were deliberately trying to hold us up.
Jon_Miller> ok, I will address 1 first
nbarclay> And 3) This latest situation where you made a deal and seemed to be saying that you would absolutely not keep to it because you got a better one.
Jon_Miller> hmm, wait, are you done yet?
nbarclay> Yes.
Jon_Miller> ah, ok
Jon_Miller> I will attempt to address 1 than
Jon_Miller> for the most part it was caused by fear
Jon_Miller> our fear of you
Jon_Miller> you guys have a lot of well known members
Jon_Miller> on your team, and looking at posts you guys have made on apolyton
Jon_Miller> showed that there was a strong interest in the early rush
Jon_Miller> which would work well with your knowledge of WCs
Jon_Miller> now, you guys seem to not be thinking that way anymore
Jon_Miller> but that was our thinking than
zeit> Actually- we never seriously considered an early rush...
Jon_Miller> also, we did not want you to know about how poor our northern continent was
Jon_Miller> because we thought that woudl cause you to rush (because we were very weak for a bit
Jon_Miller> if we could not settle the northern part of the southern continent, we would be finished
Jon_Miller> so we wanted to make sure we had a strong claim to that, before you were aware of how small our northern continent was
Jon_Miller> Zeit- well, a number of your members wrote about early rushes in the strategy threads
nbarclay> I can understand your fear of having our warriors near yours, but do you realize that your warriors are just as powerful and dangerous, and posed a very similar threat to our cities?
zeit> and yours about immortals vs. WC, so?
Jon_Miller> you had WC way before we had immortals
SirRalph> true, jon, but that's about oscillating wars against the AI
Jon_Miller> we expected charriots to come
nbarclay> If you had stopped exploring with your own warriors at the same time you stopped Grog's advance, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as big a deal.
SirRalph> Jon: WCs are not jungle going. You were completely safe, till we'd build a road through the jungle.
Jon_Miller> now that we have IW we feel safer
Jon_Miller> oh, well, we did not know that about WCs at the time

	28-01-2003 10:22									#222
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well, I don't feel like posting the rest of it

but we devided up the cont, we did not get as much and as we want, but neither did GS

we have the trade treaty agreed upon

we have an alliance in the works (against Lux), it was pointed out that Luxs cities would be closer to our capitol than the ones we were arguing about int he jungle

in tech, we are both going to be going for republic, with us trading techs off ot the continent

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 11:57									#223
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err, OK.

did you guys exchange screen shots then? sounds like you did. I would like to find out what we agreed upon. Especially when the next turn comes around.

Last edited by Dis on 28-01-2003 at 12:04

	28-01-2003 12:07									#224
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only of the area both of us know

not of the area that only one of us know (it was something I was willing to do, hopefully it is ok)

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:08									#225
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I think Lux is telling people we met them

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:12									#226
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oh, and legoland is not on the main continent

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:19									#227
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roleplay is 4-6 turns from writing

GoW is on the main continent

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:20									#228
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roelplay has mysticism

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:22									#229
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lux is researching horsebackriding according to Roleplay

I think that lux is trying to get a trade advantage by trading stuff around

just like we thought they were

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:23									#230
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oh,a nd I lost ym connection, so Ilost the chat transcritps

I don't know if anyone else logged it

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:29									#231
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Did you just exchange the one screen shot. We can exchange the northern screen shot as well. Just to gain more trust. And I would like to see their part of the continent.

	28-01-2003 12:35									#232
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yah, just the one

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 12:35									#233
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I did try to exchange more, but it seemed like they were not interested (or did not pay attention)

Jon miller

	28-01-2003 17:23									#234
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Hi Jon - no I did not save a transcript. How do you do that - just cut and paste?

My quick thoughts- I agree with jon - we did not get all we wanted - but pretty close. A key point is that GS opened the save while were chatting. They have iron further south - so that did not seem to be s sticking point.

Jon did an excellent job explaining away early tensions, and getting us to the point where we could make this deal, and then haggling well over the small details.

I still get the sense they still see us a weaker power - which we are. Their capitol can pump out settlers very quickly. During negotiations they were quite willing to say - fine - lets make a REX race out of it. And they readily admit they have more land and should have more cities. They want 13 to our 10, as the plan sits. Jon and I are pretty sure we can get in 11.

But we have peace for awhile. And in the long-term, probably a more stable partner than Lux.

	28-01-2003 18:58									#235
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hmm, maybe I need to go back to the bargaining table

I think we will ahve to be agressive in expanding off the continent to gain an upper hand

Jon Miller

	28-01-2003 23:09									#236
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also you mentioned they didn't want our culture to gobble up that Iron. How about we move the fish/wheat city site one square NW onto the coast. To fill in any jungle squares we want in the middle we can plop down another city in the middle. There will be some overlap, but we can still utilize the middle of the jungle.

	29-01-2003 04:35									#237
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What is interesting Diss, is that is where they originally proposed that city should go - and we negotiated it down so we could at least claim some of the mountain resources. I think right in between would work OK, and will be far enough from any city they plunk down to be OK for conversion. Temple goes in real quick, both for culture and expansion of the border.

The interesting one is the centre city - and that caused them the most grief. Their original proposal had their city going in on the southern piece of jungle - and thus claiming all the plains squares and a good number of mountain squares as well. That was the same site I had proposed on my city site chat map earlier. Unfortunately, if we want peaceful realtions, I think we have to let them have it. Jon negotiated them to a spot south of that. And then we have to decide how far down we want our central city. Any way you look at it - it is not going to be ultra-great. But that is the price of peace and a partnership...

	29-01-2003 04:44									#238
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hmm, but perhaps we can renegotiate

since nbarclay was not altogether clear

Jon Miller

	29-01-2003 05:18									#239
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If you can - great. But watch the fine line of p***ing them off.

	29-01-2003 06:36									#240
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don't stir things up. Just try to get further clarification. I have a settler moving south through the jungle right now. I want to decided in a few turn whenever Beta or me build that 3rd city.