04-02-2003 10:22									#271
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should we tell them we know lux?

I think maybe we shuodl

Jon Miller

	04-02-2003 12:12									#272
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woohoo

Greetings Jon and People of Vox Controli:

After extensive discussion and debate (and a bit of scrambling to adjust to
Dissidentville's location), Gathering Storm has come to a strong consensus
ratifying the enclosed border treaty proposal. (I had to adjust one of our
city locations to make it viable with Dissidentville where it is, and
another because one of our generals wanted to make absolutely certain that
cultural disparities could not cost us control of an iron source.) If this
would be acceptable to you, we can have the stability that comes with
predefined borders so that both our nations can focus squarely on building
up our economies in our nations' cores. That will make both our economies
much stronger, both for research and for production, than if we waste early
cities on a land grab in high-corruption areas. It will also help us lay a
stronger and more stable groundwork for possible (and I like to think highly
probable) future partnership in other areas.

By the way, we're sorry if Hack's recent movement caused you any concern.
Your settler happened to come south at a time when Grog was away from his
normal post hunting barbarians, which raised a theoretical possibility that
other units could have come with the settler. Hack's new position ensures
that he can let us know in the unlikely event that units that accompanied
the settler might move farther south.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	04-02-2003 17:56									#273
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Who is handling the contact with GoW? Jon? Witt or Diss- do you want a turn as Voice of Foreign affairs?

I think we should tell them we know Lux - not sure about GS.

Also - in response to GS' letter and the screen shot sent with the city sites - note that they are essentially claiming the one source of iron. I thought that they indicated they have another source further south. There original plan did not have that city so close to the mountains. I think they moved it when we put Dissidentville in one square further south.

	04-02-2003 18:06									#274
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BTW - I have been engaged with BigFurryMonster of lux regarding the botched up trade arrangement. I posted my earlier letter. He had questions. Here is my response.

Re: Trade Deal - part 2
Hi BFM.

A first tier tech is one in the first row of the ancient era, or the left hand column in the F6 screen. The idea is that a first tier tech is one that many civs have already, and that many got from barbarian huts. In other words, despite the beaker cost, they are of lesser value.

The two relevant messages from Lux are the ones I sent. I agree that neither says 'we will give you our next tech'. But they clearly refer to the longer term deal, including having Lux tell us what WE should research next. We went along with the spirit and intent of the deal, on the assumption that you would research another tech and then we would trade.

There are two ways of looking at such an arrangement - the first is what Calc has called 'socialistic'. Under this arrangement all techs are shared with the other party as soon as they become available. And research paths are co-ordinated to make sure there is no duplication of effort. This is the arranagement we thought we had entered into. If you read the two messages received from Calc with this approach in mind - you will see where we were on a different page than you. Partcularly the note below where Calc says he wants to hear what we would like in return for mysticism.

The other way of looking at the arrangement is on a trade-by-trade basis. Which I now understand is the way Calc and Trip were looking at it. But under that arrangement, the first deal was not good for you, and the second - ie we turn over mysticism to even out that past deal - is definitely not good for us. Now - to even the books, I made a proposal - Warrior Code, a first tier tech, and 35 gold. (15 now, and 1gpt).

I trust this makes it clearer as to where we were and are coming from on this. Don't hesitate to contact me if you need further clarifiaction.

Cheers! ... Beta.
quote:

BigFurryMonster wrote on 03-02-2003 07:40:

Hello, Beta!

We at Lux headquarters have some discussion going on on the exact nature of the trade agreement. It would help a lot if you could provide me with the message from us that (according to you) says we're giving you our next tech.
And what exactly do you mean by "first tier tech"? (I'm not a native speaker of English and do not know the word 'tier')

BFM

quote:


part 2 of 2 of my message to calc

As you can see, we have alot to offer you. We have no desire to withhold any strategically valuable tech to you, since we feel very safe with the people of Vox. Our natural boundaries provide little to dispute over and our common heritage of being latin-decent as well as common love for science makes Vox one of our favorite. If we can cooperate in tech buddying, it would be to your best interest since we have so much to offer you as of now. Please take serious consideration in planning mysticism as your next technological project. I would also like to hear what you guys want to work out for us recieving mysticism as soon as you guys discover it. We are open to suggestions, and we are very lenient right now, so please take advantage and accept this proposal.

I wish to hear from you again.

Calc
etc

	04-02-2003 18:54									#275
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Who is handling the contact with GoW? Jon? Witt or Diss- do you want a turn as Voice of Foreign affairs? I think we should tell them we know Lux - not sure about GS. Also - in response to GS' letter and the screen shot sent with the city sites - note that they are essentially claiming the one source of iron. I thought that they indicated they have another source further south. There original plan did not have that city so close to the mountains. I think they moved it when we put Dissidentville in one square further south.

uh oh, I already told them that we knew GS (I thought that it was known by everyone)

Jon Miller

	04-02-2003 23:21									#276
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no prob. I told them we knew GS too .

I figured it was common knowledge.

	05-02-2003 03:59									#277
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Who is handling the contact with GoW? Jon? Witt or Diss- do you want a turn as Voice of Foreign affairs?

Jon - you quoted me above - but no answer. Multiple choice:
1.Jon
2.Dissident
3.Wittlich
4.Beta

	05-02-2003 09:53									#278
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Beta, I would prefer

Jon Miller

	05-02-2003 09:53									#279
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(I wil be resposible for our allies, GS)_

btw, I think it is tine to exchange maps with them

Jon Miller

	06-02-2003 04:56									#280
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Ghengis Farb posted this in the who has the game save thread. Looks like they think we are dawdling. I will contact him to make sure he knows we are only a turn away.



quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
did you vote to go to war?

Is this why you didn't show up for our meeting?

	06-02-2003 05:06									#281
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PM to GhengisFarb:

Greetings GhengisFarb.

I trust all is well with you and the esteemed nation of Glory of War. I read your recent post in the public thread - regarding us not meeting.

Originally posted by Dissident
did you vote to go to war?

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Is this why you didn't show up for our meeting?

We headed for the rendezvous point as soon as you indicated you were there. The nearest unit was three turns away. He will be there next turn, on the southern of the two points of land you can see.

We are very interested in making contact with you and seeing what business we might possibly transact.

Thank-you for your patience. We will see you next turn.

Betahound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli

	06-02-2003 07:05									#282
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Great catch Beta!
I, for one, am continually amazed by your diplomatic prowlness!

	06-02-2003 07:56									#283
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Thanks Witt! I don't think Nathan Barclay of GS is.

	06-02-2003 17:09									#284
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I received a response from GhengisFarb offering to give us the low down on the other continent. Here is his note and my response. This should be intereresting.

Also - the Who has the game save thread would seem to indicate that Lux has gotten in a war with someone. Oh - if only we had galleys....


My response:

No - not yet. We understand that there are 4 of you on it- inlcuding Lux, Neu D, and RP. We believe Lux is situated next to us, then NeuD, then ??? But that's about it. Lux explained very little of what was going on. We would greatly appreciate some news from the rest of the world. ...Beta.

quote: GhengisFarb wrote on 05-02-2003 20:00: Thanks for the response, has anyone given you a rundown of the diplomatic history of our continent yet? If not, let me know and I will write up one (of course it will probably be biased, a little).

	06-02-2003 19:17									#285
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Sent this to Picahulu of Neu D this morning. Hope you don't mind me sharing a bit - but I think this could be a key relationship to allowing us to expand. And sooner than later - ie as soon as we can get galleys and Immortals set to go.



Friendship and the Future

Picahulu - esteemed minister for the great nation of Neu Demogyptica.

It was with great pleasure that I received your recent note. I very much enjoyed our early dialogue, and now that the game has progressed, it is important that we talk again. My sense has always been that Neu D is a civilization we could trust, and given that our early existence in this game has had its moments of tension, we look forward to establishing some firm friendships in this world. Friendships where our respective goals compliment each other, as oppose to competing against each other. And a friend we can rely on to stand beside us when things get tough, and vice-versa.

We very much look forward to meeting you in the game. We are obviously on a smaller continent to the east of yours. It runs roughly north-south. We inhabit the north, and smaller end of the continent. Our neighbours to the south are Gathering Storm. We got off to a tense start with GS regarding exploration and expansion rights, but have since established much better relationships, and have recently agreed to the positioning of cities and our border. We have conducted technology trades with them.

Our geography is rugged - and in fact - the northern part of our lands are separated from the southern part of the continent by a one tile 'chokepoint', soon to be a city. This has made us feel somewhat secure. Our early efforts went to expansion and major road construction; we are now concentrating on city growth and economic development.

Now - a matter of common interest. We contacted Lux Invicta over a straight of water that separates our continent from yours. Things started off friendly enough, and trade arrangements were made. It has now become clear that there was a misunderstanding regarding the arrangements, and Lux is claiming that we agreed to a deal which would be very much in their favour. We disagree. As the last part of this deal involves us sending them a technology we are just completing, we are holding out for a re-negotiation. However, we have not heard from them lately, and I presume they are occupied with other concerns.

The northen end of the continent you are on is very close to our capitol - and is only separated by the straight of water. I presume Lux is the closest civ to us, given that we contacted them next. And then I assume you are their closest neighbours. I think we can both see where our common interest lies. Now - if only we had galleys ..... (grumble, mumble).

You might also be interested to hear that Lux did not speak very well of you when we first met them. They accused you of breaking deals, etc, etc. Given our recent experience with them, we have our own ideas of where the truth lies.

So my friend, I have shared a fair bit of where we are at. And perhaps more than our other senators may approve of. But I have a good feeling about our potential realtionship, and I do believe we can share an early common interest. To say nothing of the trade possibilities. Our friends to the south, Gathering Storm, are eager to engage in multi-national trading arrangements, and we have directed our respective research paths in that regards.

I look forward to hearing from you. You should also note that if you can get a unit to the north-east tip of the continent, we could meet in the game, and enable a true trading relationship. But for now, we would like to learn of the rest of the world, of your experiences so far, and your opinion on the 'common interest' I have suggested.

My regards to you, Borc, and the rest of the leaders of Neu Demogyptica. May your nation and its people live long and prosper!

With sincerity and friendship - BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli.

	06-02-2003 19:22									#286
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And this from the Who has the Game save thread - by Trip.

"They're taking longer to play their turn than it took us to decide to declare... erm... I mean... "

I wonder what is going on between GoW, Lux, and Neu D. Hopefully Picahulu will let us know.

GoW and Lux vs Neu D?

GoW vs Lux?

Any ideas? jon, Diss - have you picked anything up in your travels?

Or was Trip simply being Trip.

	06-02-2003 22:05									#287
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Received from GhengisFarb. It will be interesting to get NeuD's version and see how they compare.

Comments?


Re: Meeting

[i]Ye Complete History of the Continent of Bob.[/u]

In the north there is us at the west and Lux to the east, with Neu Demo to our south. Roleplay is in the middle (south and east of ND) and has claimed all the free territory south of ND and Lux as their personal property and threatens that any attempt to scout it is an act of war against them. Both us and ND have performed some scouting missions though, which has led Roleplay to simply lie about our teams and tell everyone we are evil because we have a conscript warrior scouting wilderness.

Lux fortified a warrior next to our capital and we finally convinced them to move it away, ND claims Lux chased one of their settlers half way across the continent but Lux says they did that only after ND scouted into some area they claimed was theirs.

We tried to form a tech research pact where each of our civs researched a different tech and then traded to the other three but Roleplay violated it and now the civs are leary of entering into another one.

Roleplay agreed to trade us Writing for Horseback Riding but has refused to honor three different agreements relating to it (Do you get the feeling we don't have a very good impression of Roleplay? They've lied to us and broken agreements on several occasions so we pretty much assume they are always lying and we seem to be right on the mark nowadays.)

That's pretty much it, we've got several Wine resources we hope to trade once Mapmaking is available. There are Gem, Silk, Spice, and Wine on our continent and ND has told me there are Ivory resources near Roleplay.
__________________

	07-02-2003 02:53									#288
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And just received from BFM of Lux. What a bunch of bozos they are.

Trades
Hi BH,

Thank you for your message. I can see now how we were on different pages in the big trade book. That is bad. Bad for you and bad for us, since it causes confusion and yields little trade.

You say that - evaluating trade by trade - the deal of giving IW to you was bad for us. You're right.

You also say that the deal of giving Myst to us is bad for you. Again, you're right.

But only if you look at each trade individually.

I feel that Vox and Lux need to be in a long-term trade relationship. Not a 'socialistic' one as you call it. But one in which both civs tell each other what they are researching (themselves) and then work out a deal. This can be done on a one-to-one basis, with gold to make up the difference between techs of different values.

In this light, let's evaluate the deals. First, let me stress that the Pottery deal is one that was conducted outside of the IW and Myst deals. We agreed to sell it to you for some gold, and I think that this was certainly not overpaid.

Then, the Myst for IW deal. We saved you 11 turns of research on IW, for the promise of getting Myst. We took a risk there. Although we feel that this is a good deal for us, we will keep you to the promise you made: to adhere to your part of the deal and send us the secret of Mysticism. In return, we will teach you the secret of Warrior Code and tell you what we are currently researching to pursue a continuation of our relationship. Your proposal of having us pay additional gold will not win support amongst our people, and I will therefore not waste time discussing it. I am hereby already compensating you more than a number of Lux citizens think is necessary.

My plans for the future are as follows: we tell each other what we are researching, and try to research different branches of the tech tree. Then, we trade techs on a 1-to-1 basis, with an amount of gold to balance the book. Let me know what you think about this and how we can come to a good formula for the amount of gold.

I also have another option for a trade for right now. We can get you in contact with the mighty Roleplay team, if you get us in contact with Gathering Storm. Let me know what you think about this one!

I hope we can settle our differences, and look towards a bright Lux-Vox-future!

BFM

Last edited by Beta on 07-02-2003 at 05:12

	07-02-2003 06:11									#289
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You know, I am so glad we didn't "loan" them the use of one of our cities!

Concerning the Mysticism for Warrior Code...sigh...I say fine, trade them one-for-one (with no additional gold changing hands). This way, the books are (basically) balanced and we can pursue future tech trades with the other players instead of Lux. At least Lux can't say that we renigged on our tech trade then.

If, in the future Lux wants to know why we won't trade with them, we can use BFM's latest response as grounds for not going into future dealings with them - their deals are not considered "deals" and don't have the interests of Vox in mind - only theirs.

	07-02-2003 07:35									#290
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I think we should hol dout for a bit

than trade (probably)

but after we trade to GoW

Jon Miller

	07-02-2003 07:39									#291
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hmm, I think that we shuold be able to put our mark on that continent

get the 4 naitons warring, than pick off the losers (And make sure we get the cities)

JOn Miller

	07-02-2003 07:59									#292
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I can see holding out on the deal. We really only need Warrior Code. Glory of War should be able to provide that staright up as an introductory gifet. OK, we will give them some gold.

On the other hand - it would be good to keep our reputation intact. Or better yet - see if we can't trade mysticm to GoW as well.

And I will tell Neu D not to trade for it. We will provide it cheap when we meet. As an introductory gift.

And yes, it would be good to get across the straight and develop a small beach-head we could use for a military build up.

	07-02-2003 08:04									#293
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BTW - there seems to be some bad blood between RolePlay (Arnelos and Togas) and GhengisFarb. GF just recently quit the Intersite game after one of the threads degenerated into a little trash-talking between the three - and it clearly realted to the PTWDG.

Man - am I glad we are on our continent. And I thought be neighbours with GS was difficult.

Speaking of which - the plan is to gift them, GS, Mysticism as soon as we get it, isn't that right jon? They agree with the trading principles, and we are on the goodwill path now, right?

I'm Ok with it. Will be an early test of their sincerity.

	07-02-2003 12:39									#294
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Lux does have a point. If I am reading that correctly they are trading us Warrior code for Mysticism. I am fine with that. We want to keep our rep in tact for now. And having warrior code thrown in isn't too bad a deal for us.

We need to figure out what to research next. Do we need to discuss this with GS?

Also we should trade Mystism to New Demo can Roleplay. No sense having Lux profit anymore from this deal. We should reap the profits.

It is interesting what is developing on that continent. I wish I could spy on the action .

	08-02-2003 06:20									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Also we should trade Mystism to New Demo can Roleplay. No sense having Lux profit anymore from this deal. We should reap the profits.

That I definately agree with!

Concerning the next tech to research....I say sure, lets ask GS what they think (it doesn't mean we have to research it though).

BUT I would not ask Lux what the next research should be, since this would continue the belief that we are still their "patsy"

	08-02-2003 09:08									#296
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PM sent to GF tonight after the move. We will see what happens...


Esteemed GhengisFarb of the noble nation of Glory Of War.

Sincerest regards and thank-you for tabling Warrior Code. As there had been no prior discussion, I'm not sure if this was offered as a gift - in which case we are flattered and thank-you - or as a trade offer - in which case we are still flattered and thank-you - only a bit less.

My response was tailored more to the first - I assume that it was an introductory gift to establish our longer-term relationship. But I could not possibly let such generosity go without a response. I offer up 15 gold in return. I appreciate than in a straight trade, Warrior Code may be worth more, but it is a tech that several other civs have, and for which we already have a viable offer. But - we would like to do business with you. And we would like to establish a longer-term relationship.

I have put the 15 gold on the table and accepted the offer. If you are in agreement, please accept at your end.

With thanks and salutations,

BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli

	08-02-2003 13:10									#297
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in the other thread I mentioned we should get warrior code from Lux.

the mysticism/warrior code trade (with Iron working which they gave us). I am happy with this. I would like to complete the "deal". In the future we won't agree to a deal that benefits them more than us.

We should contact Gathering Storm. I'm going to send them a quick PM to see if they had anything in mind. I was not there for the chat session, so I have no idea what we did or did not agree to there. I haven't heard from Jon lately. Did we arrange any more trade agreements with GS?

PM sent to nbarclay just now. We should await any response before playing our turn. I don't want to waste research.

Last edited by Dis on 08-02-2003 at 13:21

	08-02-2003 19:12									#298
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Received from Ghengis. It looks like we could possible get Warrior Code and Horseback riding from GoW. I am not really too hung up on the Lux-WC deal. We can still trade them mysticism, only for soemthing else - like cash - a fair pile of it.

Diss - the last I remeber about GS is that they had agreed in principle with the full tech trading arranagement. We simply share techs as we get them. Soon GS will be in touch with the rest of the world. We need to solidify our relationship with them now. I suggest we simply gift them mysticism, and warrior code when we get it, in the exectation that they will gift us writing.

Here is Ghengis' note. Oh btw - the other option is we do the Lux-warrior code deal, and at the same time, we do a deal with GoW of Myst for horseback riding - which is a more valuable tech by the way - 50beakers. Yes - this works better. That way we do not upset Lux. And Ghengis gets his deal too. OK. I will PM GF right away with the proposed plan. Hope you all agree.

"Re: Warrior Code
Actually, we are interested in knowing what tech you are researching now and contact with GS once we have acquired Writing.

We would be willing to offer a two phase trade of Warrior Code and Horseback Riding (we can't trade you Horseback until you have Warrior Code)."

	09-02-2003 01:50									#299
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This is what I sent back to Ghengis earlier today. It is now almost 4pm est, and no response - and I am heading out soon.

So Diss - it is over to you to decide on the Mysticism and Lux deal. There has been sentiment expressed to complete the deal, and honor our commitment. This is a good idea. So - if you want to put Mysticsm up for Lux, then that is OK. Or we can wait a turn and do the PM thing for a turn or two. I really want to get Horseback Riding from GoW for it as well. I will PM Ghengis right now to contact you Dissident if he decides on this later today. Or if you think the Lux deal is going sour, or will ruin our chances at getting Horseback Riding - well, your call.

(Witt - 'me thinks' you are going to have to get more involved soon. Jon doesn't appear to be around much - and this is getting a bit hectic).

My concern is that as soon as Lux gets it, they will go whoring it around asap. That's why I would like to do the Lux and GoW trades at almost the same time.

And gift Mysticism to GS. Aren't we good neighbors.

Have fun. I will.

My note to Ghengis:

Re: Warrior Code
How about a deal of Mysticism, which we are just completing - 1 turn to go - for horseback riding. We will conclude our deal for warrior code with another civ.

And yes - contact with GS can be discussed. We are not opposed to the idea.
quote:

GhengisFarb wrote on 07-02-2003 23:12:
Actually, we are interested in knowing what tech you are researching now and contact with GS once we have acquired Writing.

We would be willing to offer a two phase trade of Warrior Code and Horseback Riding (we can't trade you Horseback until you have Warrior Code).




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	09-02-2003 12:33									#300
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I haven't sent the game because I want to iron out this deal: