29-01-2003 08:18									#241
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And exactly where it goes. GS was pretty picky about this.

	30-01-2003 05:53									#242
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Received this from Picahulu of Neu D. Funny, I was thinking of contacting them, and this arrives. Psychic powers or what. Anyways - I always had a good feeling about these folks. And note their none-too-subtle comments about Lux!!! I will work on a response - but need your input. How mush do we share?

Re: Greetings to Neu Demogytica from Vox Controli
Dear Betahound of Vox Controli,

ages have passed since we have written each other the last time. I hope everything works just as fine in Persia as here. We would love to hear more about your progress in science and diplomatical matters, and of course we'd be grateful if you have a new excerpt to quote from the Great Book of Vox Controli.

As you know, our scouts didn't manage to meet each other. Everything looks like we are on different continents, nevertheless we would like to exchange territory maps with you if your people are ready to do so. Just imagine, if there are only a few miles between our continents, we could meet each other and establish a trade route!

Maybe you're also interested whats going on in ND.
In the last 1500 years we have made good friends with the Spanish and the Chinese people, and we became acquainted with the agressive warriors of Lux Invicta who invaded our territory recently. The cheating and lying government of the Ottomans have also broken contracts, that's why the atmosphere between our people and Lux Invicta is somewhat sick.

If you have made any experiences with the other nations in the world, positive or negative, we would be enlightened to hear your opinion.

We hope to hear from you soon and we wish you all the best,

Picahulu, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

	30-01-2003 06:20									#243
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edited - and deleted - the above posted twice for some reason.

	30-01-2003 06:44									#244
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Interesting....
Well, I guess you could tell them that we're in contact with GS (same continent) and lux (yelling across the straight). I, for one, don't see any reason why we should keep this infomation away from ND.

Besides, it will indicate to ND that we're open (and honest) in our diplomatic discussions.

Eventually, we might be able to work the "friendship" with ND in order to keep Lux in line....

	30-01-2003 09:12									#245
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Back to Lux for a momemt. This was the letter that came in from them earlier when we concluded the first aspects of the trade - and we agreed to undertake mysticism. He clearly indicates that something should be coming back to us in return.

Jon - I know your stance about tier 1's and 2's jon, but since relations with Lux may go sour quickly - I suggest we take Warrior Code and say 15 gold. We can then spin warrior code to GS for something. I don't believe they have it as yet. Mysticism and Warrior code for writing would be fair.

Unless anyone objects, I will put together a letter to Lux in the next couple of days, bringing this letter and the apparent agreement to their attention, and proposing the Warrior Code and gold deal. Should we push for more gold. Maybe 10 gold and 1gpt?

Here is the old note from Calc:

"As you can see, we have alot to offer you. We have no desire to withhold any strategically valuable tech to you, since we feel very safe with the people of Vox. Our natural boundaries provide little to dispute over and our common heritage of being latin-decent as well as common love for science makes Vox one of our favorite. If we can cooperate in tech buddying, it would be to your best interest since we have so much to offer you as of now. Please take serious consideration in planning mysticism as your next technological project. I would also like to hear what you guys want to work out for us recieving mysticism as soon as you guys discover it. We are open to suggestions, and we are very lenient right now, so please take advantage and accept this proposal.

I wish to hear from you again.

Calc"

	30-01-2003 10:47									#246
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I thought we have the trade agreement with GS

or should soon

Jon Miller

	30-01-2003 12:52									#247
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I don't know, I wasn't there monday night.

That is an old letter for Lux. Didn't we agree to give Mysticism to Lux for Iron Working. I do think we should try to get Warrior Code thrown in there for good measure. In 9 turns that tech shouldn't be that valuable. As many nations will have or are close to Iron Working. So I don't want them overcharging us for that.

As for New Demo we should respond. Notice how they mention about making possible warrior contact. Like they know how close the continents are. It's interesting how we hear 2 different sides to the Lux/ New Demo story .

I am having second thoughts about any permanent trade agreement with Lux. We should just do various trades here and there. We will be busy with GS anyways.

So I propose we try to get warrior code thrown in with us giving them mysticsim in any correspondance with lux. perhaps a small gold allowance if that isn't enough. But a very small gold allowance. Remember they acknowledge they got the better deal with the Iron Working/mysticism thing.

Any correspondance with new Demo we can mention the continents are close together, but another nation may block them. I'm not sure if we should say that nation is Lux. Didn't we agree to keep our contact confidential? We can also mention who we have met on our continent as pretty much everyone knows anyways . That should help establish some trust.

	31-01-2003 08:28									#248
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Witt and Diss - thanks for the comments. I will draft the letters up shortly to both Lux and Neu D. Btw Dissident, the gold on the trade I would see coming our way! Jon has clearly made his case that WC is a tier 1 tech, and as most other civs already have it, not nearly as valuable as Myst. My intent is to get back our gold that we provided for pottery.

And yes - I think Neu Demo. is the way to go as well. Cordial relations for now - and then with galleys we can make contact. And plan some other fun .... .

Remember that tusk thingie that Eli saw....

	31-01-2003 18:44									#249
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Remember that tusk thingie that Eli saw....

Actually, I was the first one to notice it (using my paintshop pro program), but your point still remains.

	01-02-2003 06:58									#250
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Yes - Witt - I remember now. Sorry about that. When we take over that part of the world - I propose that you have exclusive rights to naming the city closest to the elephant. Perogative of the discoverer.

	01-02-2003 08:35									#251
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yah, Lux was offering Myst arround

Jon Miller

	01-02-2003 18:16									#252
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You mean our Mysticism? Are they saying they will have it in a few turns?

My take is we should still complete this trade. But I want Neu Demogyptica to know exactly where it came from - and the good relatinship we have with GS. And hint at 'expansion' possibilities for both Neu and Vox.

	01-02-2003 22:58									#253
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also try to get them to throw warrior code in that deal if we can.

	02-02-2003 02:42									#254
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Diss - definitely - they do NOT get mysticism straight up. We want warrior code and cash in return. Going to craft that letter now.

	02-02-2003 05:12									#255
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sent to Calc II of Lux. Hopefully they will agree. If not .. well, we don't send them Mysticism and we will continue the debate.

Greetings CalcII and Trip of Lux.

It has been awhile since we last talked. If I recall correctly, our last conversation centred around our mutual misunderstanding of the tech trading arrangement between our two nations. We of Vox clearly see it as a longer term arrangement, whereas you of Lux see it as a series of 'equal' trades, with the definition of equal to be worked out as trades proceed.

My intention is not to aggrevate the debate, but to give you some idea of where we are coming from and propose a solution. I have attached two previous pieces of correspondence received from Lux. They might help explain our position somewhat.

Important Message from Lux Invicta
Greetings, BetaHound! I hope you got my message about our interest in establishing a possible tech agreement for the future. I have just spoke with Trip, and he seems to love the idea of helping each other in the tech race against other civilization. After all, what better than to have the two scientific civ in this game to stick together? The future looks bright to me, Lux and Vox, as their scientists cooperate to advance this world.

....

Which leads to this. Trip and I feel, according to our current knowledge of Voxian's understanding of the world, that as soon as their wiseman are finished with the production of this better alloy which you call iron, the best choice for next research topic would be Mysticism I am sure your wiseman considered this possibility. It is the next step up in the tree with ceremonial burial . To tell you the truth, our wiseman wants to learn this secret ourself, but the funding is limited that Mysticism doesn't come up as a priority for our nation. We need to learn secrets with more pressing needs, which we will share with you, if you only cooperate with us in researching this tech for us.

Last but not least, We would like to know just how much turn it will take for you to finish Iron working. Perhaps we can see who can finish faster and help out the other? It's just a thought looming on my mind, but I'd appreciate it if you reveal us this information, so that we can better decid and plan the tech trades, should you agree to take part in this wonderful co-operative research agreement.

Thanks!~
Calc

As you can see, we have alot to offer you. We have no desire to withhold any strategically valuable tech to you, since we feel very safe with the people of Vox. Our natural boundaries provide little to dispute over and our common heritage of being latin-decent as well as common love for science makes Vox one of our favorite. If we can cooperate in tech buddying, it would be to your best interest since we have so much to offer you as of now. Please take serious consideration in planning mysticism as your next technological project. I would also like to hear what you guys want to work out for us recieving mysticism as soon as you guys discover it. We are open to suggestions, and we are very lenient right now, so please take advantage and accept this proposal.

I wish to hear from you again.

Calc

To us - it is clear from these messages that the deal was intended to be long-term. We also undertook Mysticism somewhat at your direction, on the understanding of this longer term deal. Mysticism and the gold we have provided for pottery and 11 turns of iron-working is clearly not a fair deal. And we acknowledge that the earlier deal of gold for pottery and 11 turns of iron working was not fair either.

So - a few points to consider. The 11 turns of iron working should be even further discounted. It was clearly in your best interest as well to get Vox researching Mysticism as soon as possible. There was some benefit to us in getting it early - but to be honest - 11 turns was not a matter of life and death for Vox.

Also - we still want to pursue the longer term deal. But we have reached somewhat of an impasse. Mysticism will be completed in 5 turns.

You must admit that us turning Mysticism over to you in return for the techs provided earlier is not a fair deal. You say we agreed to it - in fact we did. I have re-read all the correspondence. BUT THAT AGREEMENT WAS PREDICATED UPON A LONGER TERM ARRANGEMENT AND THE NEXT TECH YOU RESEARCHED (AND IT IS OF SIGNIFICANCE THAT YOU NEVER REVEALED YOUR RESEARCH PATH TO US) BEING PROVIDED TO VOX.

So, my proposal is this. We will provide Mysticism in 5 turns as we said we would. Vox is a nation of its word. However, to balance the books, in return, you will provide us with Warrior Code ( a first tier tech), and 15 gold, and 1 gold per turn (total 35 gold).

We will then proceed as you have suggested - on a deal by deal basis. We are still very keen on maintaining positive and long-term relations with Lux. But we do need to find a way past this early hurdle our realationship faces.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerest regards, BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

	02-02-2003 05:16									#256
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edited out duplicate post - second time it has done that. Says that thepost did not go thru, you go back, try again, same thing, try a third, finally goes thru, and you have it posted twice.

	02-02-2003 12:55									#257
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I'm not sure they are going to go for cash in return. but we shall see.

	02-02-2003 20:41									#258
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I agree.

"Warrior Code ( a first tier tech), and 15 gold, and 1 gold per turn (total 35 gold)."

It sounds too much, but who knows, they might take it.

	02-02-2003 22:44									#259
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Contact
We ahve a warrior that can see your team's cultural zone and is two turns from a hill on our coast that should be able to see more of your area.

Do you have a unit there that we can make contact with?

from GengisFarb (spelling?)

Jon Miller

	02-02-2003 22:46									#260
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Ah....now it gets interesting.

Do we have a unit that we can move to the hill to yell across the straight?

	02-02-2003 22:54									#261
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I sent a quick reply.

We don't have much to move. But we do have 2 units on the chokepoint. I was thinking about pulling our warrior up from there and leaving the spearman. That could take a few turns. I let ghengis farb know it would take a few turns.

I would love to make contact so Lux doesn't have a strangel hold over contact.

	02-02-2003 23:13									#262
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Aha!! Yes - the warrior from the chokepoint can be there in 3 turns. Just before the Mysticsm deal. Great timing!!!!

I suspect mysticism is not a tech many would have researched next. If we can trade it to GoW, Lux, and GS - that would be a good thing!

I will now write NeuD and see what they are up to.

I bet Lux is upset that someone got by them to make contact. they obviously don't have the certain advantages of geography that we do. ie the chokepoint.

	02-02-2003 23:26									#263
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OK took a look at the gridded screenshot. We can be there in 3 turns. If you play the turn pull a warrior up from the chokepoint.

We could use the worker too, but that may be a waste of his abilities losing 2 turns not improving the land.

	03-02-2003 18:56									#264
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Re: Contact
We have contact with Roleplay, Lux, and Neu Demo.

Roleplay has Writing of which we are trying of trade with them for Horseback Riding.

Do you have contact with Lego or Gathering Storm?

	03-02-2003 18:57									#265
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Re: Re: Contact
From Lux or Roleplay?
quote:

Jon Miller wrote on 02-02-2003 12:28:


quote:


We have contact with Roleplay, Lux, and Neu Demo.

Roleplay has Writing of which we are trying of trade with them for Horseback Riding.

Do you have contact with Lego or Gathering Storm?




we know GS

we are about to learn mysticism

Jon Miller


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	03-02-2003 23:05									#266
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who wrote what?

	04-02-2003 03:06									#267
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I believe Jon did - I think...

	04-02-2003 05:52									#268
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I think Jon's note was a re-print of a message from Ghengis Farb of GoW.

And rats - they are researching mysticism. We are 3 turns away from completeing.

	04-02-2003 06:24									#269
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Maybe we can offer it to them before they complete it....

	04-02-2003 06:53									#270
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Yes - we know all about that, don't we.