05-02-2003 08:30									#151
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Lets face it....they are not going to trade us writing.
We might as well accept it

We should work on Lux, about getting writing from them.

Start studing it ourselves.

Offer to make the alliance with ND official.
Ask them to throw in writing, and we keep it between us.
We will just tell everyone we researched it ourselves.
And offer to gift ND the 60gold.

Dunno - but we are running out of options.
They obviously dont get HBR.

	05-02-2003 17:46									#152
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you mean revise the message again to include this hitler ananlogy at the beginning?

I will write it if thats what you mean later today when I'm not busy... if anyone else wants to write it then go ahead.

	06-02-2003 02:14									#153
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again, edited to reflect current sentiments on GoW.

	06-02-2003 03:21									#154
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Overnight, I have had a rethink....

Although I can see the funny side of the hitler ananlogy....we may have some jewish (and other nationalities) friends on the RP team which may take offense.

Perhaps it is best to leave it out.

Regs

	06-02-2003 04:44									#155
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What do others think? I can send the message, just ommiting the first paragraph if people want.

	06-02-2003 05:09									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 More threatening: (revised response) _________________________ Togas, I can see now how Roleplay is conducting their diplomacy. Roleplay is conducting it like Hitler did with Britain before World War II. Roleplay is assured we won't attack them, because of both our nonagression pact and the distance from the Glory of War homeland. Roleplay is playing on this fact, and are trying to squeeze more out of the Glory of War in diplomacy. We do not intend to make the same mistake as Britain by feeding into Roleplay's egomania and their absurd demands. Roleplay told the Glory of War they would trade writing to us for a certain deal, and a few days later, Roleplay changed the deal in their favour.

Change to :

I can see now how Roleplay is conducting their diplomacy. Roleplay is assured we won't attack them, because of both our nonagression pact and the distance from the Glory of War homeland. Roleplay is playing on this fact, and are trying to squeeze more out of the Glory of War in diplomacy. We do not intend to continue feeding into Roleplay's egomania and their absurd demands. Roleplay told the Glory of War they would trade writing to us for a certain deal, and a few days later, Roleplay changed the deal in their favour.

quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 This is the prior agreement: quote: ?????????????????? If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3. To refresh everyone's memory, it was: GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing. Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition * Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.

Who sent us this from the RP team.... Their name should appear within the quote.



Good email......
I still think it should be sent to every team member of the RP team...with the expanation that we no longer trust their leaders/diplomats to accurately inform all members of their team.

	06-02-2003 05:29									#157
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Thanks, Hot_Enamel for writing that... I'm not the best writer around...

Edited once again.

	06-02-2003 05:48									#158
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We WANT THE HITLER analogy though. That's the sting that's supposed to shame them into honoring their discarded agreement. Here's a more diplomatic version.

quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 More threatening: (revised response) _________________________ adaMada, I can see now how Roleplay is conducting their diplomacy. Roleplay is conducting as Hitler did with Britain before World War II. Roleplay is assured we won't attack them, because of both our nonagression pact and the distance from the Glory of War homeland. Roleplay is playing on this fact, and is trying to squeeze more out of the Glory of War in diplomacy. We have no desire to be your Chamberlain by feeding into your leadership's egomania and their continually altering demands. Roleplay told the Glory of War they would trade writing to us for a certain deal, and we accepted. Then you informed us that you decided to change the deal and we began working to meet that one. Then you changed it again. We have no idea if this philosophy is that of your team or simply your leadership but it is difficult to maintain any form of mutually beneficial relationship with a team that regards the treaties it agrees to as little more than frivilous scratchpads of no value. We have honored every agreement with your team since the beginning even when other civs gave us bonus techs and the deals were no longer equal trades. We find it very sad that your team still will not honor this agreement.

I would LIKE to be able to get Writing out of them.

Send it to adaMada, not Togas. adaMada is far more trustworthy than Togas and its HIS JOB to post this in their forum.

	06-02-2003 06:56									#159
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I like your version GF....I just fear some unknown backlash by inferring Togas is behaving like Hitler.

Its your call...

Send it soon though

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 06-02-2003 at 07:03

	06-02-2003 07:07									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I like your version GF....I just fear some unknown backlash by inferring Togas is behaving like Hitler. Its your call... Send it soon though

It doesn't actually call him Hitler it but he has been behaving like a psychotic madman.

	06-02-2003 08:24									#161
	Increase Your PM Length

since everyone agrees with this version, I will proceed and sent the message to adaMada.

	07-02-2003 01:41									#162
	Increase Your PM Length

Togas' Reply:
_____________________

Panzer32,

adaMada has posted your response to our forum. I'm not going to waste my time commending on your continuing insults and threats and make this very clear, because your team doesn't seem to care to understand what MY position is, and your team continue to believe that by misquoting my ambassador and playing word games you can force me to change MY position on this deal.

I, as leader of Spain, am not giving you ANYTHING until your warriors are OUT OF SPAIN, period. That was always our position, when we talk about "removal" we clearly mean "removed from Spain." We do not mean, "moving north 1 tile" as you incorrectly seem to believe. I am not going to take "your word" that you will remove them after the deal is done. I have zero trust that you will follow through. I want to see them OUT before I give you anything.

If you want writing, you will leave Spain by moving north to the tile I clearly specified. It's simple and it's clear. You "claim" that you are removing your warrior so there should be no issue with this arrangement. Yet you are making an issue because you want writing NOW.

I'm sorry, but I'm not that trusting, especially not with the way you continue to insult myself, my ambassador, and my team. You're not going to get it now.

If you remove your warrior and pay us the amount you promised, you will get Writing. If not, you won't. It's that simple. I can't make it anymore simple than that.

If you choose to "go public" with this whole stupid affair know that I will also "go public" and devulge all of your bitter quotes and threats and lies and broken promises. Should you doctor our PMs to you, we will, in return, doctor your PMs to us. Should you outright lie about our role in this affair, we will lie in return. There is nothing that you can threaten us with that we cannot do in return to you. Mutually assured destruction. If you want it, we'll play that game. I'm more than willing. You know that I have people on my team who are VERY willing to do so.

But if you want writing, quit sending threatening and insulting letters to my ambassador, move your warrior north a few more tiles, then trade us 60g for writing like you agreed.

That is, if you really want writing. I'm starting to doubt that you do.

--Togas, Ruler of Spain.

________________________

I suggest that we scrap this deal, and start researching writing.

I feel it is risky to go public with our information, but it might be necessary. It would require an extremely well written document, with every point well proven - we don't want Roleplay to think we're lying, and start lying in return.

Possible Reply:
_____________________

adaMada

I am sorry the Glory of War and the Roleplay team could not have come to an agreement. The Roleplay team must understand that the Glory of War did not want to remove its warriors. Simply, the Glory of War wanted to be ensured the trade happened before we removed our warriors for no reason. Since we had started to withdraw our warriors and no deal had been reached, the Glory of War simply turned their warriors back, not to be withdrawn until a deal was reached. Again, I regret that we were not able to reach a deal.

Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	07-02-2003 02:41									#163
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We threatened to go public.
They think we are bluffing.

I say we have to post it on the main board, or they and all other teams will never give us the respect we deserve.

I agree it should be researched and well written.

My response to Togas would be.

"Your insinuation that we have doctored PM's is pathetic. You are a disgrace to the spirit of the game, your team, and your profession.

Go to hell"


There is little use in trying to expalin what our warriors are doing. Forget it. Just cut off diplo relations altogether.
Dont hint to them about what we are doing, or how we are going to get Writing. Anything we tell them will be twisted. Tell them NOTHING.
Ignore them.

And again, I suggest this is sent to every team member within RP. I do not trust Togas/Ama is providing an unbiased account of our communications to their team.

Regs

	07-02-2003 03:18									#164
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I think we should have a thread which is just copies of emails and pms from Roleplay. Not other posts in the thread and then we can look and see if we have enough to go public with. If we research Writing on our own it will take 20+ turns and put us out of any tech race, we will lose all tradeablity with other civs. If we wait the 5-6 turns for ND to finish Mathematics we can pay them for Writing and start on Construction WHICH WE CAN THEN TRADE to other civs and be just as advanced as everyone else.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 07-02-2003 at 07:03

	07-02-2003 07:31									#165
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We have the thread. Now, what do we do with it?

I think the best thing to do is to get important messages, and post them in the main forum in a logical order, with commentary.

	07-02-2003 07:47									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 We have the thread. Now, what do we do with it? I think the best thing to do is to get important messages, and post them in the main forum in a logical order, with commentary.

Yes, I think ANOTHER thread,perhaps the "Case against Roleplay" should be started with arguments utilizing the memos from the Exhibit thread.

I think it would be good to have some members other than Panzer and I work on this also as I think we could build a better case with more perspectives contributing.

Remember, that in my view this is not so much a case to expose Roleplay as dishonorable, but as to defend ourselves because Roleplay has been very active in spreading the word that WE were the ones who have been breaking treaties with them, not the other way around.

	07-02-2003 07:53									#167
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Yep, I agree.

Only choose a fight we know we will win.

I still need to read everything, but I suggest we only do the Writing deal.

My understanding, is that both teams accepted the offer....and have PM'S to prove it.


We must ensue we dont start...or get dragged into...a name calling match.


When we do the post, in public, I suspect the RP team will jump on it quick with some nasty hasty posts.
We do not respond to those posts until we agree on a formal reply.

As a last resort, and they start quoting any of our namecalling PM's, we just declare that we were "roleplaying" the warmonger type team.


Regs

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 07-02-2003 at 08:00

	07-02-2003 20:03									#168
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Hot_Enamel: If you want to become the 'official' diplomat to Roleplay, then yes. Go ahead. Most of the communications were done by PM anyway, so your time zone shouldn't be too bad . A new face might do us and Roleplay good.

If the need for a chat comes up, GF and I could probably handle it.

	08-02-2003 02:17									#169
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That accepted Horseback Riding from us this turn which means they are committed to giving us Writing the turn we are north of Sargossa (two turns).

Alternately we could converge two warriors on Sargossa in two turns.

	08-02-2003 02:53									#170
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How much gold did we give them in the end ?

Or did our bluff of exposing them on the board work ?

	08-02-2003 03:00									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Hot_Enamel: If you want to become the 'official' diplomat to Roleplay, then yes. Go ahead. Most of the communications were done by PM anyway, so your time zone shouldn't be too bad . A new face might do us and Roleplay good. If the need for a chat comes up, GF and I could probably handle it.

It seems that we are getting Writing from them now, so it is no longer required.

P.S. - I dont want your job Panzer...what I was suggestion was a temporary solution.

	09-02-2003 08:20									#172
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Here's the deal I was trying to work up with Vox and Roleplay, but Roleplay wouldn't negotiate.

quote: Here was the plan. (Our turn) We sell you contact with Vox for 25 gold. We pay Vox to give you contact with GS. We continue to move our two Warriors north. (Your turn) You receive Contact with Vox from us. You receive Contact with GS from Vox. You give us Writing. You now have the ability to sell contact with GS to both Lux and ND. You also have the first chance to sell techs to GS. In Conclusion We get 25 gold now, Writing and Contact with GS on our next turn (since you would give it to us on your turn) You get contact with Vox, GS, and the first opportunity to sell contact with GS to Lux and ND, and the first opportunity to sell techs to GS which should allow you to make some very lucrative deals. Prior agreements still in effect: Non-Aggression Treaty between Roleplay and Gow, expires ?? Roleplay cannot trade Horseback Riding for 14 turns. GoW would not be able to trade Writing for 15 turns after it receives it.

	09-02-2003 08:51									#173
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I understand the deal now.

I am not surprised RP would not agree.
They need a week to review the offer, add 3-4 additional clauses, haggle to half the price, poll it on thie own site, have it rejected, and haggle for an even cheaper price, then decline on the offer.

Regs

	09-02-2003 09:47									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I understand the deal now. I am not surprised RP would not agree. They need a week to review the offer, add 3-4 additional clauses, haggle to half the price, poll it on thie own site, have it rejected, and haggle for an even cheaper price, then decline on the offer. Regs

Roleplay agreed, we confirmed a Non Agression treaty for 30 turns from this turn in addition.

Am awaiting a response from Vox on the following:

quote: I haven't sent the game because I want to iron out this deal: We will give you Warrior Code AND contact with Roleplay for 15 gold now. On your turn we will give you Horseback Riding, and in return you: Give us and Roleplay contact with GS and agree NOT to trade Horseback Riding to GS (allow us the right to trade it to them) and give us 15 gold (if you do not have 15 gold we would accept 1 gold a turn for 20 turns). We can offer contact with ND on the second turn also if you wish to expand the offer, Roleplay will be able to offer you Writing also. Please respond within the next 6 hours or I will have to assume this deal is not valid and send the save on without this offer being sent. Thanks.

	10-02-2003 03:37									#175
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quote: Roleplay agreed, we confirmed a Non Agression treaty for 30 turns from this turn in addition.

So, thats 30 turns from 1790bc... thats... calculating... 1025 BC?

	10-02-2003 03:57									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 So, thats 30 turns from 1790bc... thats... calculating... 1025 BC?

I'm not sure, as the game changes the period of each turn at certain points, but at least now we can calculate it.

	10-02-2003 06:40									#177
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I counted the game period change. The game turn counter changes next turn, actually, from 40 to 25 turns. Then it changes to 20 years at 750 BC.

	10-02-2003 07:03									#178
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Should we send a confirmation of the expiration date?
___________________

adaMada,

I'm glad that our two teams have decided to get along, and extend our nonagression pact. Just to confirm it; it is a thirty turn nonagression pact signed during 1790 BC. I calculate this means the pact expires in 1025 BC. Please get your team to confirm this.

Thank you;

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	10-02-2003 19:51									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Should we send a confirmation of the expiration date?

Sure.

	11-02-2003 01:38									#180
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I just told adaMada about the expiration date in chat, and he will get his team to confirm it.