30-03-2003 03:29									#61
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Sorry about that

We could always say that I was just spreading misinformation to GS

	31-03-2003 09:02									#62
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Message from Zeit

quote: Hot_Enamel Respected consul of the Glory of War. I'm sorry for the dealy on responding to you- but i did needed the time to review the ideas raised by our members. I hope your weekend went well- even the most hardworking diplomats need some rest. The ideas of Iron trade were accepted with some enthusiasm. The GS would like to make this trade doable, but some prior investments are necessary: Building a harbor, a galley, and scouting a path, are all required, and might involve deviations from planned development programs for us. We were also interested in trading for Luxuary- as the game progresses happiness will undoubtedly become more of an issue. Therefor we were thinking of a trade in which we trade our Iron for your Luxuary, along with additional sum of gold that would compensate us for the deviation from our original plan, in building a harbor at this stage. I did not mention a time frame nor a specific details- just tell me what you think about it and can go further from that point. As for lending you money for upgrades- we thought of several arrangements that would make this possible: tech for gpt instead of lump sum (we trade tech for gpt), or the classical lump sum for gpt. All are doable, but will depend on the situation when the loan is asked for.The interest rate will also take into consideration the amount of gold loaned and the duration of the downpayment. Whenever you feel like you need a loan, don't hesitate to ask for one (damn, i sound like a banker). I have some more ideas, i'll write these tommorow. I Hope all is going well in the Imperial City. Kind Regards Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

It looks like they have taken me half seriously.

Does anyone have any input they would like me to include in a response.

Obviously, I doubt we will want to "pay" for their harbor.

Borrowing funds from them might be interesting.

If we "borrowed" 200g just before Vox attacked, it would limit their upgrade options.

We could repay gpt...(offer peace & the gold each round)
or even agree to repay in full after 10 rounds.
In 10 rounds, GS could be wiped out which would nulify the debt


Again...timing would be the issue



Regs

	31-03-2003 11:42									#63
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I don't forsee GS getting wiped out in this war. To be more specific, I personally don't want to see GS wiped out. We have, in one team, all the strat forum experts. We also have here a possible course of action to cut this team down in size as to making them an insignificant player. We have to remember that if we, or Vox with our assitance, wipe out GS, then there will be refugees. These refugees will migrate to other teams. Yes we might get one or two of these "experts", but so will other teams (notably RP, Lego and even ND in Sir Ralph). This is why I stated in my quick contract deal a time limit (the down to three cities deal). When we, or I talk to Vox, this is going to be a sticking point unless we can convince them that leaving GS around as a minor player is in their advantage as well.

I don't want to "pay" for their harbor either, double so if we never have to use it (this is for a BACKUP sorse of Iron remember).

	31-03-2003 16:37									#64
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by donegeal I don't forsee GS getting wiped out in this war. To be more specific, I personally don't want to see GS wiped out. We have, in one team, all the strat forum experts. We also have here a possible course of action to cut this team down in size as to making them an insignificant player. We have to remember that if we, or Vox with our assitance, wipe out GS, then there will be refugees. These refugees will migrate to other teams. Yes we might get one or two of these "experts", but so will other teams (notably RP, Lego and even ND in Sir Ralph). This is why I stated in my quick contract deal a time limit (the down to three cities deal). When we, or I talk to Vox, this is going to be a sticking point unless we can convince them that leaving GS around as a minor player is in their advantage as well. I don't want to "pay" for their harbor either, double so if we never have to use it (this is for a BACKUP sorse of Iron remember).

Just remember, that we will make them a mortal enemy just itching for revenge. It may be better to eliminate them all together.
They will align themselves with whatever team is against us. I say we dont make any plans, and just see how the war progresses. Make the decision later.

I will decline on the idea of financing a GS harbor...but still show interest as using them as a backup.

I will also let them know we are interested in borrowing their gold. We could let Vox know what we are doing, and get them to pay us for the "interest". Ensuring GS is broke just before we declare war is certainly evil.

Regs

	31-03-2003 17:35									#65
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Try to talk them into allowing us to do scouting for them. We already have the Galleys, we could send them up the coast with permission...

	31-03-2003 18:18									#66
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I would rather have the entire team broken up and scattered amongst the other teams than small and insignificant. If left alive they will simply ally with another team and do that one team's strategy. If split up they will switch loyalties to the various teams.

	31-03-2003 19:01									#67
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Good point. I had never thought of it that way...

	05-04-2003 18:44									#68
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From GS:

quote: GhengisFarb, Our current ETA of Feudalism is 8 turn- this might change, but probably won't go above 10 turns. The price tag we have given this tech, for all who are interested in a purchase is 200 gold, or 12gpt over 20 turns. Note that 200 gold is less than 30% of the beaker cost of the tech. This trade will include a 7-turn non disclosure agreement, under which you will not trade the tech to anyone in a period of 7 turns from the time of delivery. If you're interested in this purchase- please let me know. Many thanks Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

	05-04-2003 19:48									#69
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hmm... we'll probably be at war with GS in 8 turns... maybe we can get ND to trade with them, and then let us have it 7 turns later. Hopefully, we'll be able to find iron in GS territory soon so that we can prevent them upgrading to pikemen.

	06-04-2003 01:33									#70
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Also from Zeit

quote: Hot_Enamel, I has initiated early stages of negotiation with GF regarding trading Feudalism to you: It seems according to our analysis that we will acquire this tech some time before you will. GF did say you were interested in such trade. I'll let him know of our price, but i'll continue opening the communication channel between us open. Our price for the tech is 200 gold in cash or 12 gpt over 20 turns, including a 7 turn non disclosure agreement- a period of time in which you are bound not to trade the tech onwards. As for the loan- an arrangement of gpt for a tech would allow you to put your entire economy into gold income, and will let you keep the cash you currently have. If you're interested in a gold loan, tell me about the amount you're interested in, note that loaning you gold will require a certain period of time of preparation, and possibly in a delay on the ETA of feudalism, which is currently due in 8 turn, depending on the sum of gold loaned. The interest rates will vary- in peacetimes it will stand on 25% for 20 turns, and 35% in times of war. About issues you have with Vox- In our private talks with Vox, our diplomats have discouraged the Voxian from setting foot on Bob, and explained to them probable consequences of such action, however, you should understand that Vox's territory is many times smaller than those of the Bobian nations, and that is where some of our members' comments on the board came from. Hope to hear from you soon Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.

If ND buys it, tell them to go the gpt route.
GS may be destroyed before the 20 turns are up.

If Vox wants to finance the gold loan, we may be able to drain their cash reserves just before going to war.
Thus limiting their upgrading to pikes ability, and rushing new units.

	08-04-2003 00:41									#71
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From GS:

quote: GF, Have you decided on a reply to our tech trade offer? If time is an issue, i think we can cut off a turn or so of our ETA, so that you can have it sooner, but wouldn't commit on that. Please reply. Zeit

Maybe we should agree to the GPT thing, we never said we wouldn't declare war and its not our fault the game won't let us pay gold while we are fighting them.

	08-04-2003 01:16									#72
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quote: Maybe we should agree to the GPT thing, we never said we wouldn't declare war and its not our fault the game won't let us pay gold while we are fighting them.

sure.

They might trust us that teeny bit more if we are paying them GPT.

	08-04-2003 03:52									#73
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We will have to declare peace every turn with the gold, accept and send.

The gpt route is definately better, but lets at least haggle a little bit.

	08-04-2003 05:22									#74
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try a GPT deal. When we go to war tell them that the payments for Feud will be suspended until the conclusion of the Vox contract. If we do this, then if Vox and GS call for peace before GS is gone, we start up payments again and we would have honored our contract. And if GS is wiped out, well... congrats to us!

PS, no more than 10 gpt. That will equal the same as the 200 gold offered for flat out buying it.

	08-04-2003 05:48									#75
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I support Donegeal's idea. If others support it, then I'll sent GS a letter.

	08-04-2003 05:56									#76
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I still think we will have to send peace and gold each turn. Anything else, and no one will trust us for a gpt payment ever again.

Plus, it separates us from the war, if it ever goes pair shaped. We can claim that we had no interest in the war, other than the sale of the horsemen with which Vox could do as they wish.

We met all of our repayments with GS in full and on time, and please dont kill us now that you have destroyed Vox.

	08-04-2003 06:55									#77
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I never agree to GPT deals unless I'm going to war with the idiots anyway so I could care less if anyone offers us a GPT deal.

If we agree to accept one IT SHOULD be considered a sign we are getting ready to declare war on you.

	09-04-2003 03:39									#78
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We have a new ambassador

quote: Hot_Enamel, Since i'm taking a trip to the US and will be back in 20 days- Shiber has taken my seat as ambassador to GoW. Please contact him about our latest offers. Zeit

	09-04-2003 04:02									#79
	Chat with Shiber Suffering from ads?

I had a chat with Shiber of GS a few hours ago, I had posted it here but I made a new thread instead so it gets more attention

-MZ

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=83035

Last edited by Master Zen on 09-04-2003 at 05:52

	09-04-2003 18:42									#80
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Caught Shiber on line

quote: Session Start: Wed Apr 09 22:08:59 2003 [22:09] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Hey [22:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Anything interesting been happening ? [22:12] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I am away from my keyboard for 20 minutes - will check in periodically [22:19] [Shiber] I am drafting a diplomatic message to you at the moment; I will get back to you shortly. If you wish to chat right now, please say so, as I'm always glad to engage in conversation with members of your team. [22:43] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Well - I am back -- [22:44] [Shiber] Welcome back [22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I dont have much to tell you [22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] The Vox thing is badly timed [22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We have been discussing iron trade on the forum [22:44] [Shiber] Yes, it's such a shame; I understand that you were preparing to strike at ND. [22:45] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Not that I am aware of ? [22:45] [Shiber] I trust that you have adequate forces to protect Port of Isolation, though. [22:45] [Shiber] Oh, then maybe I was fed with rumors... lol [22:45] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Yep - We are not afraid of Vox - We have plenty of troops available [22:46] [Shiber] One of your members told me recently that you want to upgrade some troops along the ND border. [22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] UPgrades yes [22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Attack no ... not yet [22:46] [Shiber] Then I must have made the wrong conclusions [22:46] [Shiber] I've also been told that you fear that as soon as either team gets their UU, a war would break out [22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But we always have war plans ... [22:46] [Shiber] Yes, you must justify your team's name! [22:47] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Oh Yes- ND's UU is certainly worrying for us [22:47] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], there is something we should talk about. [22:47] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have nothing - Are you prepared for Vox ? [22:48] [Shiber] Some of my teammates have raised suspicions that Vox's 2nd invasion was just a ruse that was coordinated with your team. [22:48] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Why would we do that ? [22:48] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I see no advantage in us doing that [22:48] [Shiber] I trust GoW, which proved to be very honest in the past, but I'm having a hard time convincing my teammates. [22:49] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], frankly, neither do I; but when war breaks out, people get paranoid. [22:49] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Since ND changed leaders...I am no longer forwarded the sav...so I have not seen it [22:49] [Shiber] A screenshot of Vox's invasion force would surely alleviate our worries, though. [22:49] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But unless som eof our members are also lieing in our forums ???? [22:49] [Shiber] Please don't misinterpret this as an attempt to blackmail you for intelligence [22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Nope thats ok - We are just better prepared for them this time [22:50] [Shiber] We just want reassurance. [22:50] [Shiber] That's good to hear!! [22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Last time, they had a settler & a city [22:50] [Shiber] We were actually worried that Port of Isolation might return to Voxian hands [22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That will never happen [22:51] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That city, would allow them to transfer troops city to city, and attack on the same round [22:51] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Very dangerous [22:51] [Shiber] Can you please provide my team with a screenshot? [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I will see ... You know how GF feels about that [22:52] [Shiber] I fully understand [22:52] [Shiber] I don't expect a screenshot, but I don't expect to convince my teammates without one [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sure - I will ask [22:52] [Shiber] Anyway, negotiations between ourselves can continue as usual. [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That is excellent [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have been trying to get GoW to discuss an iron trade [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But war plans have got everyone excited [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And it got pushed aside [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And I have been RL busy [22:53] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], that's one of the things that could be affected by our suspicions. In the past few hours some have been saying that "we shouldn't give GoW anything", which I find appalling, but that's the reality I have to deal with. [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I need to clarify this ... [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] GoW, has iron [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But its position is easily overrun by ND if they wisg [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] wish [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We want a back up supply only [22:54] [Shiber] Oh, I've forgot that you've already told us that. [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We dont trust ND [22:55] [Shiber] Yes, we can certainly be your back-up source, at least as far as I'm concerned. [22:55] [Shiber] We just have to keep a good relationship going on [22:55] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent...I posted my suggestions today on our forum....but no one has said yay or nay [22:55] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] No probs ... Can you handle Vox [22:57] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And the Fuedalsim trade ... GF has been handling that...I think we are going to offer you gpt...We need the cash for upgrades [22:58] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], we are more than prepared. [22:58] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent [22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We have no plans on invading Vox...our horsemen would be slaughtered [22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But if you need any help ... just say [22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Vox is not our best friend at the moment [23:00] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We kinda screwed them on the port isolation deal [23:00] [Shiber] lol [23:00] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], is GoW researching anything at the moment? [23:01] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I dont think so.... We need to upgrade...and I think we are going to buy Fuedalism from you [23:01] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], then you must be making a lot of gold from your income if science is set to zero. [23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I should really check before I say these thingsd [23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Our forum is not that well organised [23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I used to just check the sav ... but I cant now [23:03] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] If GS gets wiped out... We could use some of your teammates [23:03] [Shiber] lol [23:03] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Master Zen & Calc have been good ... We needed new blood [23:05] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Is there anything else you need to bring up ... I will look into getting you a pic .. [23:06] [Shiber] There's a draft for an interesting diplomatic message in the GS forums. I hope I could send it shortly [23:06] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sending to who ? [23:06] [Shiber] to you, silly [23:06] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I am in bed in about 1 hour .. will I get it before then ? [23:07] [Shiber] btw, I've been thinking: if we could provide you with Feudalism in a matter of turns (2 or 3) and promise to give you an exclusivity of 5 or 6 or so turns before we would sell it to anyone else (means that you'll be the first to get it for a long duration of time, since we're the only ones researching it), you could hoard gold for several more turns and you'd be able to pay us in cash [23:07] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], I definitely hope so. [23:07] [Shiber] In any case, I'll CC it to GhengisFarb. [23:08] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent Idea .. I am sure we will discuss it .. CC to GF is wise [23:08] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have a quick question .. Have you been able to build a harbor ? [23:08] [Shiber] it's been on our build list, but now that Vox have declared war, things may change [23:08] [Shiber] it's very upsetting, really [23:09] [Shiber] but maybe we could find the cash to rush it [23:09] [Shiber] we'd hate to see you get stuck without iron while we are still not prepared to trade [23:09] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] You must be cashed up .. Ok the harbor thing is is a problem .. I know about that [23:10] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] My team dont really want to pay you to build one .. But we will see what happens [23:10] [Shiber] not really, we'll be short on cash, what with the upgrades and all, unless we cease research for a while [23:10] [Shiber] more info in the diplomatic message [23:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sure .. I understand... I have been pushing for a wine trade for you...as payment for a harbor & iron backup [23:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But as I say..The team has been excited about taking on Vox..so it has not gotten a lot of response [23:13] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] OK - I am heading off - Anything else ? [23:14] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Good Luck with Vox .. Let us know if you need help .. [23:15] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], what was that about wine? [23:16] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] wine for Iron backup maybe......as part of the deal [23:16] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] It is my recommendation only...definately not approved yet [23:17] [Shiber] You mean a constant supply of wine in exchange for our expenditures on the harbor, and we'd be obliged to provide you with iron should you lose your source? [23:17] [Shiber] That could work. [23:17] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Yep - something like that [23:17] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] OK - Thats good to know that you are interested...I will push the idea [23:19] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Well - I got to go - will catch up with you later [23:19] [Shiber] Alright, cya Hot_Enamel[GoW]! [23:19] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Bye Session Close: Wed Apr 09 23:19:55 2003

1. They know that the war was fake. Someone spilled the beans for sure. Either ND or RP (most likely)
Bastards

2. We must make every effort to calm their fears that we are aggressive
I strongly suggest that we offer ...
Constant supply of wine for Iron Backup. (They will accept the wine as "payment" for their harbor build)
I think they do have a harbor...and we just continue with our galleys down their west coast...looking for their harbor.
We claim the galleys include spears & settlers...looking for islands with iron....
We come in peace and tell them to ask lego..we are peacefully circling their continent as well.

3. There is always the chance, that the Vox/GS war is fake, and we have been screwed. GS & Vox are waiting for us to send over our Horsemen, and then attack us. Not a bad idea...but IMO..unlikely.

4. They will have pikes in 3 turns .. Oh dear

	09-04-2003 19:11									#81
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Their land must be filled with bonus resourses and rivers. They only recently got to the middle age and are already almost dome with feudalism? Either I am right about their land or they are lieing about feudalism (which I hope)

	09-04-2003 19:15									#82
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There ain't no way I'll agree to give GS anything. Their the big moneybag civ with the triple anyoneelse research rate.

The only transaction I see in their future is in blood. Their blood.

	09-04-2003 19:27									#83
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Well..The wine deal means nothing really...and just hides our real intentions.

They dont have a harbor..so it cant happen anyway.
And hopefully they will be killed off before it happens.

It's just providing an illusion of friendship, and a reason for our galleys to be sailing south

	09-04-2003 20:55									#84
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Told you guys we should have donde the whole photoshop pic trick...

why would ND spill the beans? I don't think that would be in their interests. As for RP it might, and I don't doubt it.

	10-04-2003 04:10									#85
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Deal proposal to Gathering Storm:

We give:
-200 gold. The Gathering Storm will determine the payment type, providing not more than 100 gold goes into the down payment.
-Wines after a trade route is in place
-2 gpt while receiving Iron

They give:
-Feudalism in 2 turns
-Sea RoP to allow our galley to pass through. (I told them we were looking for Iron islands and also would like to scout a trade route).
-Iron if we need it.

	10-04-2003 04:17									#86
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

After scanning the forums...I dont see anywhere we have stated that Vox actually landed and that we actually killed any units.

That being the case...in order to maintain the friendship illusion.. can we tell GS that Vox did not land any units...and therefore cannot provide a pic. It was all verbal, as we waited for then to actually land.

	10-04-2003 04:36									#87
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Or we could post in the main forum "hurry up and land so that we can kill your units!".

Or we should give up on the illusion now that we are only a few turns away from invading.

	10-04-2003 05:47									#88
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Permission to speak freely??

They would be REALLY stupid not to get the ruse by now. Vox would be CRAZY to invade Bob AND GS at the same time. Crazy and irrational.

Our ruse worked to catch GS off-guard during the first turns and to give the impression that there was no Vox-GoW alliance. I hope it worked. Now that they are officially at war there's really no reason to expect they are still buying this.

Vox may be crazy but they're not that stupid, to risk national suicide on two futile adventures. GS knows that Vox needs all they have to take them on.

On another note, I think GS is overstating their strength. They are proud strat-forum warriors, their pride will not allow them to seek allies even in the most darkest of situations. Because of that and from what Shiber said in the conversation I don't think they are so near to feudalism as they claim, perhaps 2-3 turns more. I think they're doing this as a display of supposed strength.

Now consider this, the moment one of their WC get's lucky they'll get their golden age. This will speed up greatly their science and production rate. I think they are confident of that and that's why they are seeking to hoard $$ and wait till the GA kicks in.

	10-04-2003 06:03									#89
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I don't feel comfortable handing over any $ to GS until they are handing over Feudalism. If Vox takes a few cities whats to prevent them from delaying Feudalism a few more turns?

	10-04-2003 07:11									#90
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I think it's important that we give ourselves the opportunity "get out of dodge" if this whole thing goes pear shaped.

1. We claim that Vox did not land any troops, but we could see them positioned on their continent. Therefore the war of words was true..maybe Vox used it as a ruse..but certainly not us.

2. We need to name our horsemen invaders Vox#1, #2, #3 etc etc......So that we can further claim the units were "purchased" by Vox, and we had no real interest in the destruction of GS

3. We continue with normal trading relations with GS. This means sending them an gpt offer for fuedalsim. And also offering them wine for iron. The wine for iron is a good idea IMO.
Most likely we will never have to give it to them.
We can have a 5 turn warning exit clause.
It puts them off guard.
Luxeries @ chiefton level are overly rated...you get enough happy people anyway.
And finally, it gives us a reason to send our galleys south..looking for their harbour

4. I also want to ask them, if they are really at war with Vox ...They claimed we were faking it...I want to ask if they are faking it, and are planning to do a joint GD/Vox invasion of GoW. Shiber claims that many of his team dont believe us...I am going to claim many of our team still believe their is a joint GS/Vox alliance.
I want to do this just for fun

Can everyone please let me know their thoughts. I want to send the wine offer tonight. I could do it unofficially, and tell them the deal will still need to be ratified.

Regs