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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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Since Aidun had long gone to sleep and we needed to confer with Legoland about Education, Togas asked me to talk to ZargonX.
I knew from looking at the save and the price of Education, that while only 1 civ had Education last turn (presumably Legoland), that either 3 or 4 civs have it now.
Thus, what bothers me is that Legoland apparently whored around Education, but did not give us an offer (unless it's sitting in Aidun's box or something). Given that we've also been intentionally left out of the loop on Chivalry, we're apt to become paranoid.
That said, Legoland has nothing to be gained from failing to sell us a tech, a sale upon which they stand to make a profit they'd otherwise lose.
After talking with ZargonX, he said he'd give us an offer for Education, but he needed to confer with other members of his team first before making such an offer. He told me he'd try to get back to us on that by early tomorrow (since his earlier statement of hoping to get back to me by later tonight didn't turn out since no-one else from Legoland was online).
What Togas, myself, and others have discussed in the channel is that we need to have a discussion with Legoland about the possibile start-up of World War Bob within the next several turns. Legoland has a vested interest in preventing the rise of a Bobian superpower and also has a vested interest in ensuring any internal Bobian conflict is a bloodbath.
As such, we may be able to use that as leverage to discount the price of techs from Legoland or even (once the war starts, especially) get them to give us stuff for free if we're the ones being invaded (or at least one of the ones being invaded). You never know... it might just work.
I mentioned to ZargonX while he was away (so he'll see it when he gets back) that we believe World War Bob is about to break out within the next several turns and that's why we're taking longer on the save as we hash things out. Since Togas already told MZ of GoW this, there's no harm in telling Legoland. Furthermore, Togas and BigFree seem to agree that we need to have a serious discussion with Legoland about the coming war.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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I sent the following PM to Darekill
quote:
Darekill,
I wish that I could greet you in good spirits, but there is a lot going on that requires our two nations to sit down and settle the issue before we are drawn hastily into a bloody conflict.
I know very little about your relations with Glory of War, but I do know a good deal about their players, their methods, and their goals. They have made a great deal of profit from the sale of Chivalry, and my scientists have watched the price of Chivalry drop each turn. We have calcuated the drop as each nation obtains Chivalry and have discovered that 5 nations possess this technology.
They offered Chivalry to us for 500g, which is far more than you or any other nation paid for it, but told us that they would sell it to us for 150g if they get attacked by your nation. The reason they are withholding the technology is painfully obvious to both of us, however, the reason they made the 150g conditional offer may not be to you ... You see, we have a signed defensive pact with GoW that would call them to attack you should you attack us.
GoW knows that should they be attacked by your nation Spain would buy Chivalry and attack ND. However, it is becoming clear to me that they do not expect this to happen. What they expect is that your nation will attack Spain, moving the bulk of your army to the south, and then they will be called by their Defensive Pact to use their horde of freshly upgraded Riders to storm into the northern border of your nation and conquer your weakly defended cities.
Frankly, GoW is attempting to manipulate us into war.
I am very confident of this. I am also confident that they are now trying to coerce you into a conflict with us ... attempting to bribe you or even make a false pact to join with you and attack Spain. They will make whatever promises and agreements necessary to get you to carry out the plan but, in the end, they will do what is in their best interest, not what is in your best interest. They will take those northern cities, seize the iron for themselves, and make a glorious, bloody attempt to seize control of all of this continent.
These warmongers cannot be trusted. They have a deadly UU and devious motives. They are conquerers at heart, they are not diplomats. They do not strive, as we do, to live in peace in our homeland. Spain has all the land and resources it needs ... it does not crave or lust after your land, your people, and your resources. We are capable of peaceful coexistance with your people. It is all that I wish for and I will do whatever I can to make it happen.
Please, agree to meet with me in chat. I am free today and tomorrow. Simply name a time and a channel and I will be there to talk with you if you desire to speak to me about these things.
--Togas |
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:25
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Chat with nye of GS:
quote:
Session Start: Wed Jul 09 01:27:45 2003
Session Ident: notyoueither
[01:27] BigFree hey ther
[01:27] notyoueither yoi
[01:27] BigFree some PTWDG business
[01:28] notyoueither k
[01:28] BigFree I ha an idea of how to get that Galley off of your shore quickly
[01:28] BigFree it possible in Sp but Im not sure about MP
[01:28] notyoueither oh, how?
[01:28] BigFree you demand that we remove it
[01:28] BigFree in game
[01:29] notyoueither i think that is disabled in mp
[01:29] BigFree and we opt to have it moived auotmatically
[01:29] BigFree ah
[01:29] notyoueither no problem with you going back, btw. just avoid the fishies, please
[01:29] BigFree sure
[01:29] notyoueither 
[01:29] BigFree can you gusy sell any techs to us?
[01:30] BigFree Chiv, Eduaction?
[01:30] notyoueither i don't think so.
[01:30] notyoueither you have repub?
[01:30] BigFree hmm, everyone and therii mothers have it but us
[01:30] BigFree yes we do
[01:30] notyoueither i think that when we get them, we will be subject to no trade clauses
[01:31] BigFree ah, ok
[01:31] notyoueither yes. traders are getting smarter
[01:31] BigFree was the message passed that we would like a NAp tied to the lux trades
[01:31] notyoueither i hope
[01:31] notyoueither i know that there is much discussion on the topic
[01:31] BigFree a 10 turn revolving NAP
[01:32] notyoueither we must decline though, as of now
[01:32] BigFree it is vry important as Spain want to be peaceful
[01:32] notyoueither so do we.
[01:32] BigFree
[01:33] BigFree wars cost so damn much
[01:33] BigFree compared to what Lego is dooing
[01:33] notyoueither you telling me that? 
[01:33] BigFree LOL
[01:33] BigFree anyways, thanks
[01:33] notyoueither yes, lego is chugging along
[01:33] notyoueither 'np
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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from ZargonX
quote:
People of Espana,
In the spirit of friendship, the citizens of Legoland wish to propose the following to you:
We, Legoland, shall give the knowledge of Education.
In exchange, the people of Espana will provide 230 gold, as well as agree to a 20-turn Non-disclosure, no-resale agreement.
We hope that these terms are agreeable to you, and we look forward to continued dealings.
ZargonX,
President of Legoland
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BigFree, get on top of this. Try a little negotiation, perhaps get it for 200g if you can. Let them know that money is tight as we're expecting a war soon. We may also want to do some of this gpt style.
--Togas
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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Had a good chat with Darekill of ND.
Summary: They have Ansars. They knew about the Defense Pact. They could be scheming to attack us, but attacking GoW seems like a realistic possibility. In any event we kept the lines of communication open, had some friendly talk, and ND may return with a NAP/alliance pact for us to sign. If they do, we will have virtually averted a war. This matter needs to be discussed, of course, but I urge you to read the chat and come to your own conclusions:
quote:
[ND]Darekill> hi!
Togas> greetings
Togas> I don't know how long it's been since we've talked...
[ND]Darekill> a long time ago.
[ND]Darekill> We did not have much to talk about lately
Togas> How are things? We rarely hear much about your nation.
[ND]Darekill> Well we have to do with GoW and their 'plans'
Togas> We have been trying to plan for their "plans" as well, and making preparations where we can.
[ND]Darekill> how close are your relationsto them?
Togas> we had gotten along very well during the Vox/GS war.
Togas> but lately, they've acted very funny, and we're suspicious of them.
[ND]Darekill> thats what they do often act funny!
[ND]Darekill> Sometimes they are the goody good friends then they try to push us...
Togas> sometimes they're very upfront with us, other times they're very evasive. I always get the sense that they're up to something, or at least THEY think they're up to something.
Togas> my greatest fear is that they're going to orchestrate a major war and take advantage of it.
[ND]Darekill> We found out that they were researching Chiv but they would not let us have it. We said we'd take the iron then.
Togas> we still don't understand why you gave them iron ... but perhaps, in this case, it turned out to be a wise move.
[ND]Darekill> We gave them iron but we try to controll them a bit with this resource.
[ND]Darekill> The bad thing about is that they are realy angry dogs from time to time
Togas>
Togas> do you have any idea of what they're going to do with all of those Riders? What is your guess?
[ND]Darekill> We have upgraded a lot of horseman to Ansar just in case their Riders want to take the iron away from us.
[ND]Darekill> They are a thread to us and we have to be ready to fight.
Togas> As you can guess, we're very worried that you'll use the Ansars against us 
[ND]Darekill> Of cours we understand that you are worried. But we have to have them since GoW has riders.
Togas> I understand that. You definately need to have them.
[ND]Darekill> if you look at your borders and i know you do that you wont see any troops of ours.
Togas> We also have no troops on our border. I think the only exception is the watch rider on the far east.
[ND]Darekill> what would you do if we would atack GoW
Togas> probably breathe a big sigh of relief.
Togas> I'll be honest with you, we do have a defense pact with them. I wish we didn't.
[ND]Darekill> That would relive us to.
Togas> right now I'm not at all happy with them
Togas> they've been playing games with Chivalry
[ND]Darekill> the last thing we want is to fight on two fronts
[ND]Darekill> what did they do?
Togas> I completely understand. the last thing we want is to fight you guys, against your Ansars. I'd much rather build settlers and try to get a few more cities in place.
Togas> GoW offered us Chivalry for 500g.
Togas> which is far more than anyone else paid for it
Togas> and said they'd offer it to us for 150 IF they went to war with you guy and we joined in.
[ND]Darekill> wow the same thing happened to us just before we played the iron card
Togas> I get the feeling they don't want anyone else on this continent to have it
[ND]Darekill> they always told us about a pact between you and them and that we had to fight you too if we would atack them.
Togas> yes. We signed one a long time ago.
Togas> I think it was after the whole Lux thing ... before the Vox/GS war.
[ND]Darekill> Hmmm...
[ND]Darekill> How long will this thing last.
Togas> I'd be happy to find a way out of it, though. I think it lasts until turn 130?
Togas> I'll go check....
Togas> looks like it's 129 or 129
Togas> 128 or 129
[ND]Darekill> wich turn do we have now?
Togas> coming up shortly. There's a draft out there to renew it another 30 turns, still unsigned.
Togas> my records show that we are about to play turn 123
[ND]Darekill> so that would run at least another five turns at least?
Togas> at least. Depends on if we renew. Which depends in part on how things go with you guys -- I can stall or put off renewing this thing.
Togas> Maybe we should sign a pact instead.
Togas> Your team is more trustworthy than GoW is.
[ND]Darekill> We'd be glad if you would not renew it.
[ND]Darekill> O.k. let us play this slow but good.
[ND]Darekill> First your Pact with GoW has to run out.
Togas> Let's agree to a new peace between us. It's been a while since we had a peace pact signed.
[ND]Darekill> Then we could agree to give you what you would need for an aliance.
Togas> that would work, but we'll need a Non-aggression first.
[ND]Darekill> Yes but this can only be done after your pact wit hGoW runs out.
Togas> can't be We need to be certain of peace with you guys first.
[ND]Darekill> We are still suspicious i'm sorry but it is like that.
Togas> our Nap could override the Pact. If we sign a Nap, we would not attack you.
[ND]Darekill> This will cause haeavy discussions with my people.
Togas> In fact, we could put in the NAP that "this pact overrides all other pacts"
[ND]Darekill> They have been traped ito a pact before and we do not give them away easily nowadays.
Togas> which would ensure the peace.
Togas> No traps at all. You guys can write it up if you like.
Togas> I think this might work We've had to put up with GoW's manipulations the whole game. Frankly, if you guys destroyed them, I would not shead a tear.
[ND]Darekill> Good we will try to formulate a solid pact.
Togas> Spain has plenty of land in the south. We would not want, nor need, any other lands.
Togas> Word the pact however you like, just get it to me soon. I'm going to tell my ambassador to sit on the Pact with GoW for a few days.
[ND]Darekill> Alright ten i'll tell my people about this meeting and we will formulate a pact.
Togas> excellent.
Togas> Is there anything else you can tell me about what GoW may be up to?
[ND]Darekill> But it will take a few day i guess ther have to be polls and we are four consuls right now.
[ND]Darekill> We are a democracy and this tends to lead in long debates
Togas> I understand. Do what you can. It's very important. We will be willing to do what it takes to help make this happen.
[ND]Darekill> But do not fear we are preparing for GoW not for RP.
Togas> I will tell that to my people
Togas> We originally sided with GoW because we feared you may attack. Because you are our only neighbor. However, you have always acted honorably and truthfully with us.
Togas> And GoW, well, has always been difficult to deal with.
[ND]Darekill> I see. You were honest before and we got along very well so far.
Togas> I hope we continue to get along.
[ND]Darekill> GoW has played many rtricks so guess who we like more.
Togas> We are most interested in avoiding being fooled or tricked into a war.
Togas> And if GoW tells us something strange, I'll let you know.
[ND]Darekill> I understand.
[ND]Darekill> Yes we tell you if they tell us strange things too.
Togas> good
Togas> Know that Spain has no need to expand it's borders. We are content with our great blessings. We do not pose a threat to your peaceful people.
[ND]Darekill> good
[ND]Darekill> Well met
Togas> very good to speak with you again.
Togas> I hope to hear back from you soon.
[ND]Darekill> Expect to hear from us soon.
Togas> Take care.
[ND]Darekill> *g*
[ND]Darekill> good. Bye then!
Togas> bye
* [ND]Darekill has left #talks
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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Received this PM from Unorthodox
quote:
Just to be sure, this is not official in any way.
What is going on?
I admit that my time on the PTW game has been limited. Ok, perhaps that is a bit of an understatement. But, what is going on here?
Last thing I knew we were best friends, now I see what could amount to threats comming from you guys. What happened? I have only really been involved with our relations to GS, so am not all caught up on what has happened with you guys. I am trying to go through the thread now, but there may be holes.
Why did I choose GS? Well, the take 24 hour + to make a decision team, aka GS, fits my schedule better than needing to hold chats like the others.
Anyway, let me know what's going on, apparantly I need to involve myself here as well, and soon by the looks of things.
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Aidun
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The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:25
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A small summary of my chat with ZargonX of Legoland:
- I negotiated with ZargonX about re-allying. The alliance is a MPP.
- I convinced ZargonX of the need of Lego having an alliance and the woth of friendship between us.
- I convinced him of my idea that Legoland has to go to wat onece even though they don't like it, they will be forced to go to war.
- I convinced, by showing him the threat of either GoW or GS becoming a superpower, that it benefits Lego to have an MPP with us.
- Lego will probably sign an MPP and we might get the allowance to explore their coast as a compensation for dropping the demand of their WM.
- We will design the alliance and Lego will debate it after we send it to them, so I ask you to propose whatever you think is a good article and help me, BigFree and Togas to design it.
This is the report of the chat:
quote:
[Aidun] Hi
[ZargonX] Hello, Aidun!
[ZargonX] Be with you in one second...
[Aidun] ready?
[ZargonX] yes, I'm here
[ZargonX] sorry, had a phone call
[ZargonX] anyway, let us discuss the issues at hand
[ZargonX] So, first off, could you tell me how the situation is looking from your end?
[Aidun] Well, let me first state that the situation is strange
[ZargonX] in what manner?
[Aidun] GoW is acting very strange again. Master Zen first refused to sell chivalry to us, but then agreed for the price of 500 gold. this is ridiculous
[Aidun] We have not agreed of course
[ZargonX] that is rather pricy...
[Aidun] The second thging is that GoW is saying that all is fine, while things aren't fine at all
[Aidun] yes
[ZargonX] hmmm... do you fear a GoW attack only, or an ND-GoW attack?
[Aidun] This price was, as you maybe know, a lot lower for other civs
[Aidun] Soldiers are trained like mad
[Aidun] here
[Aidun] We do not expect ND to attack us, but GoW seems to be on warpath again
[ZargonX] do you think the attack will come sooner rather than later?
[Aidun] We think but that GoW is using this strategy:
[Aidun] They bribe ND to attack us and then all Ansars are on ND's southern border, GoW attacks ND in the north. Then GoW can easily conquer the ND production centers and it is good bye ND. After that It is Good bye Spain.
[ZargonX] hmm... that would be a plausable scenario
[Aidun] After that it is either Goodbye Lego or Goodbye GS
[Aidun] only a matter of time
[ZargonX] have you spoken to ND at all about this concerns?
[Aidun] when GoW has entire Bob, they will outnumber you in forces and power in anay way
[ZargonX] yes, someone controlling all of Bob would be very formidable, indeed
[ZargonX] I do not think any civs in the world would be interested in seeing a one-civ Bob, by any means
[Aidun] Yes, we don't have a NAP with ND, but negotiations are going on.
[ZargonX] that's good to hear
[Aidun] We have explained this to ND and made an agreement, but it still needs to be discussed by parliaments etc.
[ZargonX] of course; team concensus is always important
[Aidun] It is just now that we see a benefit for both of us joining in an alliance. For us the benefit is on the short term, for you on the long term: no Bobian superpower
[ZargonX] Do you have a specific set of proposals for us?
[Aidun] We would like to blow the dust of our proto-alliance-agreement but then without the demand of the map of Lego
[Aidun] As we know that it is difficult for you to give it
[ZargonX] yes, that is always a sticking point for us
[ZargonX] so, you would want to build off the original proto-alliance, with new clauses?
[Aidun] Perhaps we could agree that a ship of us may scout your coastline, but that can also be decided apart form this agreement
[ZargonX] Well, as always, I will have to confer with the rest of the Lego Senate
[ZargonX] but if you PM with a draft, we can look it over in short order
[ZargonX] and then we can work from there
[Aidun] of course, that is why it can better be left out of the allaince
[ZargonX] yes, better to deal with more important issues in the main body of the agreement
[ZargonX] when could you have a draft?
[Aidun] All we want is a defensive alliance with you, we will come to your aid and you will come to ours. I know that war is not what you are waiting for, but I see a moment coming near that even Legoland will, like the US had to do too in WW2 although they prefered to stay out of it, take the arms and go for war. You can't escape form war, sooner or later you will have to face it. Better sooner than later
[ZargonX] Yes, war seems to be a sad inevitability in this game, of that we are fully aware
[Aidun] Then we can better have peace and be close allies than opposing and fighting each other. tell that to your teammates.
[ZargonX] and no one wants to see a superpower in the world
[Aidun] Agree
[ZargonX] I will, of course, pass along the message of peace
[ZargonX] Do you fear the war will be coming shortly?
[Aidun] We don't want to see it either. We have stayed out of any conflict until now, even in the Voxian war, we have told ND that we want to stay at peace with them and that we trust them
[Aidun] BTW, ND told us the same
[Aidun] so that is positive
[ZargonX] yes, that is a good sign
[ZargonX] ND seems a trustworthy team, in general
[Aidun] I agree with that. In the past we doubted a bit when they got quite poaweful. That was in and after the Luxian time, but time has changed, and they ahev remained trustworthy, far more trustworthyb than GoW
[ZargonX] ah, the Lux days... time long gone by....
[Aidun] We don't exactly know when the war will start. I have tried to predict it, but that is based on just one strategy while there are many.
[ZargonX] yes, it is always hard to predict these things
[ZargonX] though, I would imagine those civs with UUs would want to take advantage of them while they are still useful
[Aidun] yes, but the age of the riders and ansars will not soon pass by. the medieval days seem to take as long as in RL
[ZargonX] 
[Aidun]
[ZargonX] Ok, I guess the best way to proceed forward is for RP to create a new draft agreement, and pass it along to us in short order
[ZargonX] we can review it, and then more on from there
[Aidun] it is important that we get it passed soon. I will look it up as soon as I can, or someone else of our team will do
[ZargonX] excellent
[ZargonX] I will present it to the team as soon as I receive it
[Aidun] I want to inform you of one other thing
[ZargonX] yes?
[Aidun] The strategy of GoW with ND is not the only one.
[Aidun] How are your contacts with GS
[ZargonX] GS?
[Aidun] Sailing over the sea is pretty easy with the Lighthouse
[ZargonX] You fear they would come to Bob?
[Aidun] I have strictly confidential info: GS has refused a NAP
[ZargonX] hrm... I would not think they would be so bold as to try Bob...
[ZargonX] that is quite an undertaking
[Aidun] to be exact: a NAP bound to trade deals
[ZargonX] ah
[Aidun] but still. You guys don't want to see GS invade Bob too
[ZargonX] No, not at all
[ZargonX] GS having controlling interests in Bob is a very scary thought
[Aidun] but they still have an army that is strong and the borders with Vox hardly need any defense
[ZargonX] yes, Vox seems to be out of the picture
[Aidun] unless you'd let them develop in the north.
[Aidun] Tose land aren't too bad
[ZargonX] you've seen?
[Aidun] I can see the coastline of it. We musrt have acquired it by trading WM's
[ZargonX] yes... the coast looks nice...
[ZargonX] it's not so nice once you get off the beach :P
[Aidun] ah poor voxians
[Aidun]
[ZargonX] anyway, I'm sorry to run, but I have some RL business I must take care of
[ZargonX] I will back a little later though, but I suppose that's quite late for you
[Aidun] Ok, I'll PM you ASAP
[ZargonX] sounds good to me!
[Aidun] make sure your parliament agrees
[ZargonX] I will be ready for it
[ZargonX] I will present it to them and we shall discuss it as urgent
[ZargonX] so, until later!
[ZargonX] it's been a pleasure!
[Aidun] cya
[Aidun] to me too
Session Close: Fri Jul 11 01:58:58 2003 |
Diomingo Cian,
Royal ambassador to Legoland
Last edited by Aidun on 11-07-2003 at 05:24
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:25
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Chat with GoW Part 1 of 2
quote:
Session Start: Fri Jul 11 15:12:37 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
[15:12] * Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
[15:12] UnOrthOdO- Let me see if Poly is going to work now so I can get my notes.
[15:12] * UnOrthOdO sets mode: +o Trip`
[15:12] * UnOrthOdO sets mode: +o Trip`
[15:12] BigFree- The Raiders are my Team! 12:4)1
[15:13] UnOrthOdO- ok...wont let me select anyone else...
[15:13] * UnOrthOdO sets mode: +o Arnelos
[15:13] * UnOrthOdO sets mode: +o BigFree
[15:13] * UnOrthOdO sets mode: +o Togas
[15:13] UnOrthOdO- There we go
[15:13] UnOrthOdO- Mine too!
[15:13] Togas- talk for a moment w/o me. Need to go drop something off with secretary
[15:13] * Togas is still at work.
[15:13] Togas- brb.
[15:14] UnOrthOdO- I get odd looks around town in my Tim Brown Jersey, though.
[15:14] BigFree- LOL
[15:14] BigFree- 
[15:14] UnOrthOdO- Look out, a gang member!!!
[15:14] BigFree- HAHA
[15:14] UnOrthOdO-
[15:14] BigFree- I love Timmy
[15:15] UnOrthOdO- Can't believe they left Barret on the team, though.
[15:15] BigFree- I know, that did surprise me
[15:15] BigFree- ******* drunk
[15:15] Togas- back
[15:15] UnOrthOdO- Ok.
[15:16] UnOrthOdO- Let's get down to business then
[15:16] UnOrthOdO- I want to lay some rules down first.
[15:16] UnOrthOdO- I don't know what you are used to, but with me, this is business.
[15:16] UnOrthOdO- I don't have allot of time to be dealing with crap.
[15:16] UnOrthOdO- Straight up, no BS, and I expect the same.
[15:17] UnOrthOdO- Can we agree to that?
[15:17] BigFree- yep
[15:17] Togas- I prefer that.
[15:17] UnOrthOdO- Alright.
[15:17] UnOrthOdO- I understand your guy's position right now, allow me to explain ours.
[15:18] UnOrthOdO- We did sell Chiv to ND.
[15:18] UnOrthOdO- Somehow, somewhere, they were told the exact turn we would get it.
[15:18] UnOrthOdO- Removed Iron that turn, as they play before us.
[15:18] UnOrthOdO- There are limited number of places the exact turn could have come from...
[15:19] UnOrthOdO- So, we agreed to sell it for a fair amount of gold plus iron, but a part of that was 10 turns no trade to you.
[15:19] UnOrthOdO- Hence all this BS
[15:20] Togas- so you're saying that ND *made* you not sell it to us?
[15:20] UnOrthOdO- That was a part of the deal, yes.
[15:20] Togas- so the whole offer of 500g ...?
[15:20] UnOrthOdO- There is plenty more...
[15:21] UnOrthOdO- GS and us had an arrangement fair agreed to long ago.
[15:21] Togas- sorry. Please explain.
[15:21] UnOrthOdO- Before I even became their ambassador.
[15:22] UnOrthOdO- After fullfilling our end, they ceased all consideration of a Non Agression, added a clause to an existing Lux deal saying they could back out with a one turn warning
[15:22] UnOrthOdO- And refuse to talk of tech trades in the future.
[15:22] UnOrthOdO- We, obviously, consider this an alliance with ND against us.
[15:23] UnOrthOdO- So, we have ND, and GS planning an attack.
[15:23] BigFree- Why does ND want a 10 turn no-trade to RP? They must plan to attack if they do not want us having Chiv, its an offense unit with pretty good defensive properties.
[15:23] UnOrthOdO- We also received information that RP was a part of this.
[15:23] Togas- from?
[15:23] UnOrthOdO- That you guys are building MI and Pikes
[15:23] BigFree- we are now
[15:23] Arnelos- well, that's no secret
[15:23] UnOrthOdO- and the 10 turn no trade has now screwed us.
[15:24] UnOrthOdO- We can either break it, giving ND a reason to attack
[15:24] UnOrthOdO- or not break it, giving you a reason to attack.
[15:24] Arnelos- we started building MI and pikes a while back, switched ALL cities to it recently. We didn't even try to hide that... we must have TOLD half the civs in the game
[15:24] BigFree- we will not attack you
[15:24] Togas- how are we going to attack?
[15:24] Togas- teleport?
[15:24] UnOrthOdO- either way it can lead to a whole alliance to our downfall.
[15:24] BigFree- regardless of whether you give us Chiv or not
[15:25] UnOrthOdO- For all we know you have troops right outside the ND/GoW Border.
[15:25] Arnelos- unortho... yeah, I agree, how on earth WOULD WE attack you guys?
[15:25] Togas- go check to see
[15:25] BigFree- you think we would ally with ND?
[15:25] UnOrthOdO- If planned in advance, you could have moved them.
[15:25] Arnelos- and leave our back door wide open to GS... give us SOME credit
[15:25] UnOrthOdO- This is civ.
[15:25] UnOrthOdO- Can we agree?
[15:25] Togas- agree on what?
[15:26] UnOrthOdO- Our island has only two likely ways to break it up
[15:26] UnOrthOdO- North and south, either RP/ND or RP/GoW
[15:26] Togas- Or GoW/ND
[15:26] Arnelos- no... ND/GoW or ND/RP 
[15:26] BigFree- I agree with Uno
[15:26] UnOrthOdO- ND/GoW?
[15:26] Arnelos- RP/GoW would be the height of stupidity... it leaves you wide open to a backstab
[15:26] UnOrthOdO- What and split the GoW empire?
[15:27] UnOrthOdO- leaving ND continuous?
[15:27] Togas- Ok, I'm lost .
[15:27] BigFree- let me talk
[15:27] UnOrthOdO- How would ND and GoW split the island?
[15:27] UnOrthOdO- ok, BigFree.
[15:27] Arnelos- oh....
[15:27] BigFree- not very well
[15:27] Arnelos- we thought you mean who was possible to fight whom
[15:27] BigFree- I agre with Uno about the split of our land mass
[15:28] BigFree- it makes more sense to split it RP/GoW than anything else
[15:28] UnOrthOdO- Yes it does
[15:28] BigFree- hence a RP/GoW alliance shouod be in place
[15:28] Togas- but we're not talking about sense, we're talking about Civ.
[15:28] BigFree- shh
[15:28] Togas-
[15:28] BigFree- lets get a pact worked out Uno
[15:28] Arnelos- we already have an RP/GoW alliance... it's just had some... bumps
[15:29] BigFree- an RP/GoW alliance
[15:29] Togas- BF, I already sent a new draft to Panzer and MZ.
[15:29] BigFree- cool
[15:29] BigFree- lets get it done
[15:29] Togas- I'm just waiting to get it back.
[15:29] UnOrthOdO- The MPP or an alliance?
[15:29] Arnelos- ok... let's say ND attacks GoW... and we attack ND in response... what about GS?
[15:29] BigFree- That alliance will solve our fears for both GoW and RP
[15:29] BigFree- both UnO
[15:30] Arnelos- same thing if ND attacks RP
[15:30] UnOrthOdO- MZ was supposed to sign the MPP
[15:30] BigFree-
[15:30] Arnelos- GS is the problem either way
[15:30] BigFree- it is
[15:30] BigFree- but we deal with it as it comes
[15:30] UnOrthOdO- I have a chat with GS tonight as well.
[15:30] UnOrthOdO- Im a busy man.
[15:30] Arnelos- GS is almost certainly building a stack of galleys off their coast and just waiting around to see when the war starts
[15:30] BigFree- Uno, would you be willing to sign a MPP and an Alliance against ND?
[15:31] Togas- Whichever is fine with me. Just send it to us.
[15:31] UnOrthOdO- Here's the thing. Technically I can't do it till the poll clears.
[15:31] UnOrthOdO- I CAN take it and 'rush' it through.
[15:31] UnOrthOdO- I just need 4 votes, and I can get those.
[15:31] BigFree- nice
[15:31] UnOrthOdO- However, what we need to know.
[15:32] UnOrthOdO- We have been given evidence that you are building and attacking us.
[15:32] BigFree- we are building, theres no doubt about it
[15:32] Togas- ???
[15:32] UnOrthOdO- When can you attack ND.
[15:32] Togas- who on Earth is dumb enough to think we're attacking you?
[15:32] BigFree- but we are building aganist an attack by ND
[15:32] UnOrthOdO- Our team does NOT like waiting around to see if we are going to be attacked.
[15:32] UnOrthOdO- We are proactive, not reactive.
[15:32] Togas- nor do we like waiting around either.
[15:33] Arnelos- Unortho... as previously expressed, we would have to be the dumbest players on the face of the earth to attack you... it leaves us wide open to multiple backstabs... it's the height of idiocy
[15:33] BigFree- we are pretty sure ND is going to attack us
[15:33] UnOrthOdO- As would we you.
[15:33] Togas- they're clearing jungle near our cities
[15:33] BigFree- we only slightly suspected that GoW would join them
[15:33] UnOrthOdO- ?
[15:34] BigFree- but if you sign a MPP and an Alliance, then we have nothing to fear
[15:34] UnOrthOdO- This leaves Iron as a problem of course.
[15:34] BigFree- we have two
[15:34] BigFree- one for you if you ally with us
[15:34] UnOrthOdO- ND can block galley lands.
[15:34] BigFree- I believe that Lego wil have a Harbor soo
[15:34] Arnelos- not to mention we have absolutely NOTHING to gain from attack on GoW... any cities would be hopelessly corrupt and GoW being on the other side of ND from us is a BENEFIT to us... it just wouldn't make any sense. If you are scared of an RP attack, you're just being uncontrollably paranoid
[15:35] UnOrthOdO- We feel the real attack is GS/ND and you are just in as assistance.
[15:35] BigFree- ah
[15:35] UnOrthOdO- If it was going that way.
[15:35] BigFree- I assure it is not
[15:35] Togas- assistance? Maybe if they gave us Chiv...
[15:36] BigFree- GS gave us the same deal about our Luxes too
[15:36] Arnelos- ND is definately been making their fair share of belicose moves toward us recently
[15:36] BigFree- they want no NAP tied to them
[15:36] BigFree- 12:4(1
[15:36] BigFree- we tried heavily, but they would not budge
[15:36] UnOrthOdO- ok.
[15:36] BigFree- so your assumption of a ND/GS connection seems valid
[15:36] UnOrthOdO- We agree, great.
[15:37] UnOrthOdO- Can I take something back with me?
[15:37] UnOrthOdO- How soon can you attack?
[15:37] BigFree- so it would be basically RP/GoW gainst ND/GS
[15:37] UnOrthOdO- Yes.
[15:37] BigFree- we willnot attack
[15:37] BigFree- we are waiting to be atacked
[15:37] UnOrthOdO- You will not attack ND?
[15:37] BigFree- we have built for defense
[15:37] UnOrthOdO- Then what good is an alliance?
[15:37] BigFree- wait, that is seperate
[15:38] BigFree- if you want to ally, then attack, then we can plan
[15:38] BigFree- no problems there
[15:38] UnOrthOdO- Thats what Im trying to do...
[15:38] Togas- let me put it this way: We have no PLANS to attack at this time, but we would be happy to make plans.
[15:38] BigFree- we'd need Chiv to help out
[15:38] UnOrthOdO- If we violate, both ND and GS attack.
[15:39] BigFree- we can not plan without an alliance in place
[15:39] UnOrthOdO- We lose more free turns of Iron.
[15:39] BigFree- sure
[15:39] BigFree- like i said ealier though, lego has a aharbor soon, maybe we can trade through it
[15:39] BigFree- do you have a Harbor?
[15:40] BigFree- or are you planning one?
[15:40] UnOrthOdO- We have some, yes.
[15:40] UnOrthOdO- lux trade with GS...
[15:40] UnOrthOdO- don't you read my stories?
[15:40] BigFree- cool
[15:40] Togas- ND would have to blockade one of our harbors to stop trade
[15:40] BigFree- then we can trade Iron to you
[15:40] Togas- our ships could travel around counter-clockwise durign a war
[15:40] Togas- ND's culture won't block our trade.
[15:41] BigFree- Lets make this a part of our alliance
[15:41] UnOrthOdO- Sure
[15:41] BigFree- we trade Iron to you you trade Chiv to us
[15:41] BigFree- plus we can give you one extra lux
[15:41] UnOrthOdO- I think we may want to attack sooner than that if at all possible.
[15:41] BigFree- then lets ally now
[15:41] BigFree- we need that in place
[15:42] UnOrthOdO- As soon as we write it up I can get it signed.
[15:42] BigFree- that is what is holding this up
[15:42] BigFree- cool
[15:42] BigFree- one step before another
[15:42] BigFree- then we strike together
[15:43] Togas- what sort of timeframe are we looking at?
[15:43] BigFree- we both strike on same turn
[15:43] UnOrthOdO- ASAP as far as we're concerned.
[15:43] UnOrthOdO- Ansars are cheaper, the longer we wait...
[15:43] BigFree- ND has their turn, then GoW strikes, then RP strikes (thats the turn order)
[15:44] BigFree- we have Cats that wont make it through the jungle
[15:44] BigFree- we were planning a defensive war
[15:44] BigFree- bu we have some units avaialbe
[15:45] UnOrthOdO- Enough for an offensive?
[15:45] BigFree- mosty just Pikes
[15:45] BigFree- a few MI's
[15:45] UnOrthOdO- We are fairly certain ND was NOT planning defense...
[15:45] Togas- we can adjust, not a problem.
[15:45] BigFree- agree Uno
[15:45] Togas- can we set up a meeting with your CoW and our General?
[15:46] BigFree- send us the alliance deal, signed, we sign it,then we plan
[15:46] UnOrthOdO- Is he here?
[15:46] UnOrthOdO- 
[15:46] UnOrthOdO- Im a very busy man...
[15:46] BigFree- LOL
[15:46] UnOrthOdO- GF left, Aggie on vacation...Vice CALF to the rescue!
[15:46] Arnelos- lol
[15:47] Togas-
[15:47] Arnelos- dejon isn't online, unfortunately
[15:47] UnOrthOdO- And we thought we were being redundant...
[15:47] BigFree- 12:4)1
[15:48] BigFree- we can definately occupy ND down South for a bit, but GoW has the right type of offensive unit that RP doesn't
[15:48] Togas- we'll arrange for a meeting in a few days.
[15:48] UnOrthOdO- Will you guys send me a proposal?
[15:48] UnOrthOdO- Soon?
[15:48] BigFree- sure
[15:48] BigFree- today
[15:48] UnOrthOdO- We will be sitting on the save.
[15:48] BigFree- good
[15:48] Togas- hold on, we cannot attack this turn.
[15:49] UnOrthOdO- Next?
[15:49] UnOrthOdO- I still want it befreo we play
[15:49] BigFree- possibly
[15:49] Togas- you guys don't have to sit on it. Let me consult with my experts to give you a "best case" attack turn.
[15:49] UnOrthOdO- before
[15:49] BigFree- Togas, I think Uno has a point
[15:50] Togas- ?
[15:50] UnOrthOdO- Yes, get us a proposal with this best case, we'll sit on the save and then crush some enemies.
[15:50] BigFree- I agree
[15:50] UnOrthOdO- on the best case...
[15:50] Togas- we can give you something tonight.
[15:50] BigFree-
[15:50] UnOrthOdO- Great.
[15:50] UnOrthOdO- Now to prepare for the GS chat...
[15:51] UnOrthOdO- got any dirt on NYE?
[15:51] BigFree- ViVa the Bob Alliance of GoW/RP!!
[15:51] BigFree- only that they denied our request for a NAP
[15:51] UnOrthOdO- yes.
[15:51] BigFree- 12:4(1
[15:51] BigFree- so you can use that
[15:52] UnOrthOdO- ok...one sec. kids.
[15:54] UnOrthOdO- back.
[15:54] UnOrthOdO- Alright.
[15:54] UnOrthOdO- We'll have a plan tonight?
[15:55] BigFree- yes, for an Allioance against ND and or GS and a MPP
[15:55] UnOrthOdO- Mpp from whom? Lego?
[15:55] UnOrthOdO-
[15:55] BigFree- yes
[15:55] UnOrthOdO- we're crushing the rest.
[15:55] Togas- tonight we will send you an estimate on how soon we can feasibly attack ND.
[15:55] UnOrthOdO- like Lego would commit units...
[15:56] UnOrthOdO- that's fine.
[15:56] Togas- you need to get the alliance drafted and sent to us
[15:56] UnOrthOdO- Ok.
[15:56] BigFree- and also ou alliance would incluse a protection pact against any teams that attack GoW or RP
[15:56] Togas- it would also include iron
[15:56] UnOrthOdO- With any luck we would have our own soon...
[15:56] BigFree- hehe
[15:57] BigFree- UnO: one question?
[15:57] UnOrthOdO- Togas, your the lawyer, can't you draft.
[15:57] UnOrthOdO- I hate that crap...
[15:57] UnOrthOdO- shoot.
[15:58] UnOrthOdO- yes?
[15:58] BigFree- Did you or did younot have any sort of planned or supposed plan to attack RP with ND, even if it was going to include a back-stab of ND?
[15:58] BigFree- and not really attak RP
[15:59] UnOrthOdO- There was talk in the forum.
[16:00] * Arnelos notes that this was his theory
[16:00] Arnelos-
[16:00] BigFree- was there talk between ND and GooW of such things?
[16:00] UnOrthOdO- Yes, they proposed it a while back.
[16:01] BigFree- ok
[16:01] BigFree- just wantted to be sure
[16:01] BigFree- what did you tel them?
[16:01] UnOrthOdO- We couldn't agree to the island split because it makes no sense.
[16:01] Togas- that was our cheif theory -- GoW naval drop, ND invasion...
[16:01] UnOrthOdO- NAVAL DROP!
[16:01] UnOrthOdO- LOL
[16:01] BigFree- lol
[16:01] BigFree- I agree Uno
[16:01] UnOrthOdO- our 4 galleys would bring your doom!!!!
[16:01] Togas-
[16:02] BigFree- I think the only thing that would have happened is that ND would have attacked and GoW would have back stabbed them
[16:02] UnOrthOdO- since one is WAAAAYYY over in lego right now...
[16:02] Togas- no doom, just a show for ND.
[16:02] Arnelos- the GoW backstab of ND was what I argued... it makes no sense what-so-ever for RP to attack GoW or GoW to attack RP unless a backstab of ND is somewhere involved
[16:02] BigFree- exactly
[16:02] * Togas nods.
[16:03] BigFree- but we never did plan with ND
[16:03] BigFree- they never aproached us
[16:03] Arnelos- ND doesn't really talk to us
[16:03] Arnelos- ever
[16:03] BigFree- we have been happy being peaceful till now
[16:03] UnOrthOdO- Talks JUST broke down actually...
[16:03] UnOrthOdO- should we continue that plan?
[16:03] BigFree- really, why?
[16:03] UnOrthOdO- the map thing.
[16:03] Togas- ?
[16:04] UnOrthOdO- we couldd agree to their proposal...
[16:04] UnOrthOdO- backstab...
[16:04] Arnelos- we'd really prefer not
[16:04] BigFree- lol
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:25
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Chat with GoW part 2 of 2
quote:
[16:04] Arnelos- it would be better for us to both attack them before they get the chance to attack either of us
[16:04] BigFree- agreed
[16:04] Arnelos- because I'd rather that battles were being fought in ND territory than near Imperial City or Madrid
[16:04] Togas- Ansars in Cow Valley. Yay.
[16:04] UnOrthOdO- It would put riders on both sides of them. . . .
[16:04] UnOrthOdO- pillage city.
[16:05] UnOrthOdO- 3 turn pillage pillage pillage!
[16:05] BigFree- NICE!
[16:06] BigFree- so,relations between GoW and ND are not good now? Do they suspect an attack?
[16:06] UnOrthOdO- We are still 'debating' the map
[16:06] BigFree- well, maybe they suspect us, but do they now expect GoW?
[16:06] BigFree- what map?
[16:06] BigFree- I dont get it
[16:06] UnOrthOdO- how to split the map.
[16:06] BigFree- ah, you means split the landmass
[16:07] UnOrthOdO- yes.
[16:07] UnOrthOdO- sorry.
[16:07] BigFree- ok
[16:07] UnOrthOdO- Bob.
[16:07] * Togas pulls out his map...
[16:07] BigFree- i was liek WTF does a mp have to do with it
[16:07] BigFree- 12:4)1
[16:08] BigFree- Our first target would have to be Marlowa
[16:08] BigFree- whats your?
[16:08] UnOrthOdO- I don't have it loaded up right now.
[16:08] BigFree- thats ok
[16:08] UnOrthOdO- We were planning a two pronged assault if we backstabbed.
[16:08] BigFree- but Iron will be you first target no doubt
[16:08] UnOrthOdO- NO!!!!
[16:08] UnOrthOdO-
[16:08] UnOrthOdO- I suspect that is heavily defended.
[16:09] BigFree- LOL
[16:09] Togas- we can give you iron, anyhow.
[16:09] UnOrthOdO- Right.
[16:09] BigFree- maybe if you can pillage it, we can send in some pikes to pillage theirs
[16:09] UnOrthOdO- and we have talked to Lego
[16:09] BigFree- their other Iron that is
[16:09] BigFree- cool
[16:09] UnOrthOdO- We could do that with pikes.
[16:09] BigFree- GoW has back ups
[16:10] UnOrthOdO- not as many as we used to.
[16:10] UnOrthOdO- Vox...
[16:10] BigFree- well, RP is your new back up
[16:10] BigFree- 12:4)1
[16:10] UnOrthOdO- Shall I continue to deceive ND then?
[16:10] Arnelos- I don't see how it matters one way or the other
[16:10] BigFree- if you think you need to
[16:10] Togas- in what way?
[16:11] BigFree- maybe an attack on this turn, if we et alliance signed, would be best.
[16:11] Togas- this turn?
[16:11] UnOrthOdO- Let me load up the map.
[16:12] Togas- Right now I'm looking for a natural line that makes sense...
[16:12] BigFree- to dived up Bob with
[16:12] Togas- there's a mountain range North of Mavdad and Trippolis that runs to Neu Theb and then SW of it.
[16:12] BigFree- *divide
[16:13] UnOrthOdO- Lets just say devide it up by number of tiles.
[16:13] UnOrthOdO- Then agree to share all resources.
[16:13] Arnelos- Unortho... personally, I'm more concerned about having a natural barrier such as our current jungle
[16:13] Arnelos- the mountains north of that work... no idea what the number of tiles are
[16:14] Arnelos- such as if we de-militarized the mountain range
[16:14] UnOrthOdO- Oh, you're fearing more backstabbing.
[16:14] UnOrthOdO- And I thought we were paranoid
[16:14] Togas- as a part of the conquest, GoW would be assured the eastern gems and your own source of incense.
[16:14] Arnelos- Unorthodox... oldest rule in teh book: No alliance survives victory
[16:14] BigFree- LOL
[16:14] Togas- we need to discourage any thoughts of future betrayal.
[16:15] BigFree- we can talk exact split later
[16:15] BigFree- I agree
[16:15] Arnelos- a demilitarized zone or at least a buffer zone would be necessary
[16:15] BigFree- there is more than enough room for us two on Bob
[16:15] UnOrthOdO- We can agree to that during the war.
[16:15] Arnelos- agreed
[16:15] UnOrthOdO- Are you guys DIRECTLY AFTER US?
[16:15] Togas- we are
[16:15] Arnelos- yes
[16:15] UnOrthOdO- OOO fun war chats.
[16:15] BigFree- ND-GoW-RP
[16:16] Togas- I'm hoping to have MANY future war chats
[16:16] Togas- bring out the maps and charts
[16:16] BigFree- yes, me too
[16:16] Togas- plan moves, move stack of units
[16:16] Togas- push them around on the big board...
[16:16] Togas- exchange jpgs from our generals
[16:16] BigFree- HAHA
[16:16] BigFree- of naked women?
[16:16] Togas-
[16:17] * BigFree hopes it wouldn't be naked men
[16:19] UnOrthOdO- You guys are pretty fortified.
[16:19] Arnelos- that's at least been our AIM
[16:19] Arnelos- unsure how good it's been
[16:20] * Arnelos feels sad that his "Invasion of Spain" Simulator he was working on will now have to changed to an "Invasion of ND" Simulator
[16:20] BigFree- haha
[16:20] BigFree- yes!
[16:20] BigFree- we can send some disrupting forces now though
[16:20] Arnelos- dejon still gets to be the guinea pig, though
[16:20] UnOrthOdO- We are working one too...just have our units right now...
[16:20] UnOrthOdO- of course.
[16:20] Togas- we need to switch a lot of builds to more offensive units.
[16:20] Arnelos- Unortho - mostly the same here
[16:21] BigFree- some pikes and MI to make them squeal
[16:21] Arnelos- I have all of Bob, all the seas of the rest of the world (to model naval attacks by GS if we want to add that). I have all production and estimated production and buildings for ND and GoW cities...
[16:22] Arnelos- only thing missing is to turn teh clock forward and add extra units to Spain for extra turns of production, give units to ND and GoW and then get people to play the sim
[16:22] UnOrthOdO- I haven't really looked at ours yet.
[16:24] UnOrthOdO- MZ and Panzer were working it, just posted today.
[16:25] Arnelos- yeah... I got busy the last 2 days and haven't finished it yet
[16:25] Arnelos- I sent Togas the template
[16:27] * GhengisFarb (~Java_user@208.12.99.178) has joined #GoW_CoFA
[16:27] GhengisFarb- son of a .........
[16:27] UnOrthOdO- What now, GF?
[16:27] Togas- ha ha!
[16:27] UnOrthOdO- Me or MZ?
[16:28] UnOrthOdO- Or have you seen the forum?
[16:28] * Trip` is now known as Trip[busy]
[16:28] GhengisFarb- I had to look through EIGHT threads to find out what the password was
[16:28] GhengisFarb- I'm getting really fed up with this disorganized crap in the team forum.
[16:29] Arnelos- more resistant to spies that way, GhengisFarb
[16:29] * GhengisFarb suddenly realizes Espaniards are here.......
[16:29] Arnelos- yeah... a bunch of just defected to GoW... no problem
[16:29] Arnelos- yeah WAR!!!
[16:29] GhengisFarb- Oh, I mean, the team forum is WONDERFUL, that's what I meant to say
[16:29] Arnelos- kill! loot! pillage!
[16:29] UnOrthOdO- It was in the RIGHT THREAD!
[16:29] Arnelos- tell me all your secrets!
[16:30] UnOrthOdO- RP FA office...
[16:30] GhengisFarb- Yeah but how I had no idea what team you had in here until I went to that team's thread and found the password.
[16:31] GhengisFarb- What happened to the "x"? Censors get a hold of you UnOrthO?
[16:32] BigFree- anything else to discuss UnO?
[16:32] UnOrthOdO- I don't know
[16:32] UnOrthOdO- it's on my logon.
[16:32] UnOrthOdO- No, and I need to get going.
[16:33] BigFree- Uno
[16:33] BigFree- wait
[16:33] Arnelos- cya
[16:33] GhengisFarb- Did we get Rp to agree to a Chivalry deal?
[16:34] BigFree- Uno, we are having troubel finding somone to write the draft up, I have to go to work and Togas has a play to go to
[16:34] UnOrthOdO- I have another MEETING!
[16:34] UnOrthOdO- And my kids.
[16:34] BigFree- 12:4(1
[16:34] BigFree- then late tonight then
[16:34] UnOrthOdO- must feed them VERY SOON!!!!
[16:34] BigFree- wait
[16:34] Togas- I'm asking Arnie ....
[16:34] GhengisFarb- So I take it we agreed to something, good.
[16:34] BigFree- maybe we can find someone else
[16:35] BigFree- a GoW/RP alliance
[16:35] BigFree- against ND and/or GS
[16:35] UnOrthOdO- Yep, they are writting a proposal tonight, we hold the sav till then.
[16:35] BigFree- yep
[16:35] UnOrthOdO- GF, there is also a chat with GS tonight...
[16:36] UnOrthOdO- just so they can refuse more NAPs...
[16:36] GhengisFarb- I will be readily available, not that it matters any.
[16:36] BigFree- just like they did to us many times
[16:36] Arnelos- Unortho... when we DO go to war, do you want us to sign an in-game alliance?
[16:36] UnOrthOdO- Perhaps.
[16:37] GhengisFarb- See ya UnOrtho
[16:37] BigFree- I think that woud be best
[16:37] UnOrthOdO- It will be obvious anyway.
[16:37] BigFree- in-game alliance is more insurance
[16:37] * GhengisFarb (~Java_user@208.12.99.178) has left #GoW_CoFA
[16:37] BigFree- for both teams
[16:37] UnOrthOdO- Why?
[16:37] BigFree- you have to decalre war
[16:37] Arnelos- not really... rep points don't mean jack, do they?
[16:37] BigFree- or brak the alliance
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- Rep IN GAME means nothing.
[16:38] BigFree- then the other teams can see that
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- oh.
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- ok.
[16:38] Arnelos- BigFree has a point... other teams will see the alliance has been BROKEN
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- I gotta feed my one year old.
[16:38] BigFree- ok adios
[16:38] BigFree- thanks Uno
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- Arn, you drafting?
[16:38] Arnelos- cya
[16:38] Arnelos- I believe
[16:38] Arnelos- yes
[16:38] BigFree- you are great
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- ok, look forward to it.
[16:38] Arnelos- okie dokie
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- ****...
[16:38] UnOrthOdO- forgot logging.
[16:39] BigFree- I can send to you
[16:39] BigFree- give me eamil
[16:39] UnOrthOdO- saving the buffer.
[16:39] BigFree- are you sirulias
[16:40] UnOrthOdO- AOL, yes.
[16:40] BigFree- cool
[16:40] BigFree- I have that one
[16:40] UnOrthOdO- the buffer got it all, though.
[16:41] BigFree- cool
[16:41] UnOrthOdO- Alright, good night. Now to get the kids to bed and talk to NYE.
[16:41] BigFree- adios then
[16:41] * UnOrthOdO (~unorthodo@ACC18C60.ipt.aol.com) has left #GoW_CoFA
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mrmitchell
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quote:
NEWSFLASH!!!
In the #apolyton channel of the chat server:
[09:01:25] nbarclay> Hi. Is now when the GS/GoW chat was supposed to be? Or do I have my times messed up? |
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by dejon
Edit: Did it not occur to anyone that the public poll UnOrthOdOx posted was planned, to gain our confidence? "We have no faith in MZ, RP should be treated better..." BS. |
Yes, as a matter of fact, it did. We all assumed then and continue to assume that the posting of the poll was 100% a publicity stunt.
Look, there's no question that GoW does not have RP Team's best interests at heart here. The point is that there can be mutually beneficial arrangements even between recognized enemies, though obviously they will never be more than temporary and only remain in existence as long as they are seen as beneficial to both parties.
However, I've said it before and I'll say it again... it's a given that you can't trust anyone in a game like this to do things to be nice to you or for your sake... however, you can count on a shrewd opponent to at least do what is in his OWN interest, though no further.
GoW has an easily demonstrable concrete interest (and a powerful one at that) in expanding their territory NOW rather than waiting. They are the smallest of the major civs left in the game, they have the lowest production of the major civs left in the game, are the least developed, and have the lowest GDP, and are out of available free land to expand to. For every turn that goes by, GoW gets that much further behind in the builder game. The only way GoW can tip the scales is to conquer someone, anyone. But there's a problem.... if they attack anyone OTHER THAN ND, ND will backstab them and take their land. Furthermore, any territory other than ND's they take over will be hopelessly corrupt.
GoW's only long-term chance in this game is to conquer ND - period. Now that GoW has their riders and has a sizable force of them (or so it would seem), this is really their one last shot at being real players in this game.
If GoW can get RP Team to agree to "help" them take down ND by coming in from behind ND during a GoW/ND war, then that is an advantage... an advantage that it is in their interests to have.
But that's the point, you see... GoW has far more to lose by NOT attacking ND than RP Team does. If RP Team doesn't attack, we just get further and further ahead as we develop our land in the south. If GoW fails to attack ND, they will CERTAINLY lose the game. So if this turns into a waiting game to see whether GoW or RP Team will attack ND first, why do we care? The clock is ticking away in OUR favor, not their's. Eventually, they will HAVE to attack ND... there's simply no other viable choice.... and when they do so, we'll be ready to take advantage of the situation under the guise of "helping our allies".
We potentially have something to gain from this war... so it's possible we should indeed take part. But don't take the foolish position that we can't ally with GoW simply because they aren't really our friends. Of course not, who said alliances were always about being friends?
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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a PM from Unorthodox:
quote:
Well,
Certainly.
The timeframe is urgent due to one simple fact. Ansars are cheaper than Riders. And, while creative pillaging initially allowed us to create more horses than anyone thinks we could upgrade, we are now out of money and are producing the more expensive Riders. Hiding our strength a bit by not upgrading yet.
We likely have a number advantage now, that will dissolve the longer we wait and into the GA.
I admit that we have not handled this whole thing with you properly up to now, and you are not prepared for an offensive.
As I was saying, our backstab plan calls for a two front assault just from us. Two sizeable fronts. I can't give specifics until an agreement is signed, of course.
However, you are prepared for defense, perhaps simply declaring war with us and building up while we are the initial attack would work fine. If you are right and ND is focused south, it would take them a few turns to move north, or split forces sooner, perhaps making your road easier in the process.
UnOrthOdOx
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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PM sent to Darekill:
quote:
Darekill,
We have not heard back from you yet, and we are getting very anxious about the situation. Worse, we have now spotted 2 of your galleys and military units on the shores. This troubles us greatly, as you can imagine. We are beginning to fear the worst.
However, we have also noticed the GoW Rider division NE of Mavdad. I know you see them too. They could be a part of an attack force on Spain, and we are preparing for that option.
However, given what we know about GoW's military strength, placing 10 Riders in this position means that they have woefully abandoned their northern defenses. Their Capital city is stuck building a useless wonder, and they seem naively trusting that your nation won't attack them.
Furthermore, GoW's reserve units are likely unupgraded Horsemen. That is what is defending their homeland! If your nation can cut the iron and destroy that stack before it upgrades, GoW will be destroyed.
Your nation may never have a better opportunity to strike GoW and destroy them! And we would not be happier to see you do so.
Lastly, we want to express to you our since hope that our nations remain at peace. We have offered you Ivory for trade. We would like to discuss with you what is a fair price for it. Please let us know your thoughts.
--Togas |
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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the following treaty was sent to MasterZen and Panzer via email (because it's too long for PMs)
quote:
Our old Mutual Defense Pact ends after turn 128. Please sign this one and it'll take the place of the old one. It has just been confirmed in our House of Lords.
Spanish - Glory of War Defense Pact
Statement of Purpose
This is an alliance between the nations of Spain and the Glory of War. It is a general mutual-defence agreement, a non-aggression pact, a non-settlement agreement, and a full military alliance upon the event of either party going to war.
Article I
Definition of established territory
The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands on the continent named Bob south of the Spanish city of Toledo.
The territory of the Glory of War is defined as all land inside China's cultural borders, all lands on the continent named Bob north of the Glory of War city of Tatung, and all lands on the island which has the cities of Camulodunum and Zenophobia.
Article II
Redefinition of the territory
Either party may propose to redefine their national territory and the change shall be effective upon the agreement of the other party.
The definition of the territory of both parties may be changed if:
New territories will be found, under the condition that these new territories are fully explored and unsettled by any other nation;
New settlements, that are outside of the land defined in Article I, are founded;
New territory, that is outside of the land defined in Article I, is accuired in any way;
Territory, that is part of the land defined in Article I, is lost in any way.
Article III
Causes that activate the mutual-defense pact
If another nation settles on the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the offending nation that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the settling nation if the party that claims these lands requests this.
If another nation moves military forces into the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the offending nation that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the offending nation if the party that claims these lands requests this.
If another nation attacks any units or cities belonging to a party to this treaty or pillages any improvements within the territory of a party to this treaty, the offended party and the other party to this treaty will declare war on the offending party if the offended party requests this.
Article IV
Non-settlement & Non-agression ageement
Neither party shall settle in the territoriy that the other party has claimed to be his as stated in Article I or II. Neither party shall enter the claimed territory of the other party without prior approval. Also neither party shall declare war on the other, attack the units of the other, or enter the cultural borders of the other without express permission.
Neither party shall commit espionage against the other.
Article V
Full Military Alliance
Upon the invocation of Article III, this Article shall be called into action and war shall be declared on an enemy by both parties. This article may also be called into action upon the agreement of both parties on a common enemy.
Once war has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties are obligated to provide the positions of all military forces in the territory of the enemy, the theatre of war, or on route to the enemy to the other party in order to improve military coordination between the parties.
Once war with the enemy has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties are responsible to keep each other informed of where their military forces will be heading in the coming turns and specifically what cities or other strongholds of the enemy they will be assaulting.
Once war has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties shall share their world maps with one another.
Article V
Duration of the Treaty
The Treaty shall have a lenth of 40 turns, starting in the turn in which it has been signed by both parties.
The Treaty may be extended for any amount of turns upon the agreement of both parties.
Article VI
Settlement of any war
In the case of any war where the alliance has been activated and both parties are at war with another nation, the parties shall jointly agree to any terms for ending the war and no separate peace treaties shall be made between a party and the enemy.
Any and all additions to the official territory of either power as defined in Article I can be temporarily agreed to before the end of a war, but may be altered at the end of the war when a final agreement of permanent borders, as defined in Article I, will be negotiated by both parties as part of the joint peace agreement.
Signed, Togas, King of the Republic of Spain.
Signed,
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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Received the following PM from Unothodox:
quote:
Hey Togas,
Im afraid that most of our real skilled writers are away for the weekend, and I am unable to get ahold of Panzer for any confirmation on what I had written up. So, instead here is a list of changes that we would like made to the contract in its current state.
Article I:
As it stands, it gives us both what we currently have. This is all fine and good, except that RP has far more than ourselves in terms of land.
We would prefer an agreement that the land be split equally once ND is removed.
Article II:
We see this as potentially hazardous at best.
You see we already have units south, if we start taking cities there, they would be close to your territory, for instance. Once ND is gone this would only breed contention between us. Better to agree to split the land after, agreeing to gift cities if needed for such a deal to take place.
I mean, what if ND takes a city from you and we liberate it? By this writing, it would be ours. Rightfully it should return to you, and vice versa should the opposite happen.
Article III:
We really don't want much part of this.
If Lego settles on your land, we see it as your problem unless we extend this MPP/Alliance. Now, GS/ND settling is entirely different of course. Hence the Alliance, so this is not needed. It is also covered in the Brotherhood of Bob to begin with.
Pillaging would require declarations of war. Yes, we can agree that an enemy of the alliance is our enemy as well.
Article IV:
This is only constrained by our contentions in I and II
The Alliance all reads good. However, we would like to add Something if possible:
Both teams agree to share all lux and resources free of charge for the duration of the alliance once activated.
This only assures that we both run at peak efficiency, in our mutual best interest.
An Extension?
Looking at this game in civ terms, it is clear that the winner is likely to be one of three teams:
Roleplay
Lego
Gathering Storm
It is in our best interest to sign on in a long term...employment...with one of these to ensure we are allowed to end the game and prove that mercenaries are worth while. The end-game can include a very fun war for the victor, a declaration of joint victors, or possibly even our stepping down if we are interested in starting up a new game.
It makes no sense for us to sign with any civ outside of bob. Why give them access to our home when we would need to stage a naval assault on them?
This leaves RP as the natural choice. Therefore, we propose extending this here and now, to the end of the game, invading both GS and Lego, finishing off Vox, and enjoying an end game together. Glory of Role Playing War!!!
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:25
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email sent to GoW:
quote:
The following is too long for a PM. Please post this into your forum:
It is with great honor and promise that we send to you this second draft of our Pact. I have seen to it that the requests of Unorthodox have been met, however, if something is not to your liking, please do not hesitate to contact me and I will quickly make the necessary adjustments.
To say that this pact represents our desires for a long term alliance is an understatment. We believe an arrangement like this is vital to our long term survival and also believe that this arrangement may well lead to our ultimate victory in this game.
Without an ally my nation (and your nation as well) cannot ever hope to defeat the great nations of Neu Demogyptica, Legoland, and Gathering Storm. Together, however, we can take them down one by one until only the two of us are left.
At that point, we fully recognize that our nations may go to war to decide which of us shall ultimately prevail ... or not. At that point it will be for US to determine how this game ends, we alone shall decide our fates, no other nation can stand against us if we stand united!
Therefore, it is with great pride and excitement that I await your signature on this bold and historic treaty. Furthermore, to symbolize this great merger of might and resources, I offer to you my most attractive daughter Marisa Sophia Togas, a young, beautiful woman who has recently turned 19. She is of noble blood, the daughter of the King. Her mother is of the Libre family, a wealthy and respected noble family of the highest order in Spain.
You do not need to accept this proposal to accept this Pact, however, if you would entertain the proposal and give us an answer we would be pleased to also send over a dowery to not only cover your expenses in the wedding but to also ensure that she is well cared for.
Spanish - Glory of War Defense Pact
Statement of Purpose
This is an alliance between the nations of Spain and the Glory of War. It is a general mutual-defence agreement, a non-aggression pact, a non-settlement agreement, and a full military alliance upon the event of either party going to war.
Article I
Definition of established territory
The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands on the continent named Bob south of the Spanish city of Toledo.
The territory of the Glory of War is defined as all land inside China's cultural borders, all lands on the continent named Bob north of the Glory of War city of Tatung, and all lands on the island which has the cities of Camulodunum and Zenophobia.
Article II
Redefinition of the territory
The definition of the territory of both parties may be changed if:
New settlements, that are outside of the land defined in Article I, are founded;
New territory, that is outside of the land defined in Article I, is aquired in any way;
Territory, that is part of the land defined in Article I, is lost in any way.
Territory is taken and redistributed via Article III, V, or VI.
Or if each of the parties agrees to a new definition of their territory.
Article III
Causes that activate the mutual-defense pact
If another nation moves military forces into the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the offending nation that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the offending nation if the party that claims these lands requests this.
If another nation attacks any units or cities belonging to a party to this treaty or pillages any improvements within the territory of a party to this treaty, the offended party and the other party to this treaty will declare war on the offending party if the offended party requests this.
Article IV
Non-settlement & Non-agression ageement
Neither party shall settle in the territory that the other party has claimed to be his as stated in Article I or under other provisions of this treaty.
Neither party shall enter the claimed territory of the other party without prior approval.
Should one party request that the units of the other party move or leave their territory, after entry has been previously granted, the other party shall comply as quickly and reasonably as possible.
Neither party shall declare war on the other, attack the units of the other, or enter the cultural borders of the other without express permission.
Neither party shall commit espionage against the other.
Article V
Full Military Alliance
Upon the invocation of Article III, this Article shall be called into action and war shall be declared on an enemy by both parties. This article may also be called into action upon the agreement of both parties on a common enemy.
Once war has begun, both parties shall share all resources and luxuries with each other, and shall gift to the other team all technologies that the other party does not posess. A full tech alliance will be in place for the duration of the war, and both parties shall have an obligation to fullfill their part of the tech alliance.
Once war has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties are obligated to provide the positions of all military forces in the territory of the enemy, the theatre of war, or on route to the enemy to the other party in order to improve military coordination between the parties.
Once war with the enemy has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties are responsible to keep each other informed of where their military forces will be heading in the coming turns and specifically what cities or other strongholds of the enemy they will be assaulting.
Once war has begun and until it ends by mutual agreement, both parties shall share their world maps with one another.
Article V
Duration of the Treaty
The Treaty shall last at least 100 turns, starting in the turn in which it has been signed by both parties, and can be canceled after that time by either party only with 10 turns prior notice. So long as neither party cancels this treaty, it remains in effect.
Article VI
Settlement of any war
In the case of any war where the alliance has been activated and both parties are at war with another nation, the parties shall jointly agree to any terms for ending the war and no separate peace treaties shall be made between a party and the enemy.
Any and all additions to the territory of either power as defined in Article I shall be temporarily agreed to before the end of a war, and shall be altered at the end of the war to conform to the agreement of permanent borders as negotiated by both parties.
At the end of the war Article I shall be amended to fully describe the new territory of each of the parties.
Should the parties enter into a war against Neu Demogyptica, the following additional term shall come into effect:
The total territory of the continent of Bob shall be divided 50/50 between both parties. This division shall happen via negotiations during the war, and shall be enacted peacefully after the war is concluded. Additionally, Glory of War is to be given land that holds spice, gems, and iron as a part of its new territory.
Article VII
Nondisclosure
For the duration of this Pact, neither party shall disclose any part of the terms of this agreement to any other party. Publicly, both parties shall state that any military cooperation was "bought" and/or was the result of a temporary alliance. Both parties recognize the distinct advantage gained through this Pact and recognize that the other nations would not be pleased to learn of it.
Signed, Togas, King of the Republic of Spain.
Signed,
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Nuclear Winter
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quote:
Hello Beta,
Long time since we last talked eh?
Hope you are doing fine, and hope your team is recovering itself.
I come here to ask if your team would now want to become a part of The Church. It would be a simple process. I would convert you, and appoint you as archbishop of Vox, then you would appoint some other number of bishops in your team, and oficially convert in the main forum (Then when your characterdies, you all would vote for new archbishop of Vox) and your team could once part of the church do cool things like enforcing church´s law and making regional edicts, and voting for Pope, and maybe even electing a Pope of yours! (and with a Pope of yours, make edicts regarding all of the faithfull) .
The only effort you would have to put in it would be to convince your team, and later convert a nation by yourself (of course, this only if you felt like, it is a sugestion, not a requirement).
To oficially become a part of it you would hve to accept the true faith in one God, The Bible as His Word, and the Pope as God´s only True representant, and Christ as the son of God.
Although maybe your team has many objections with becoming part of the church, just let me know and I´ll try to clear the doubts from their minds. If your team decides that after all this won´t fit them RP-wise, then it is ok, just drop me a line and let me know.
Have a nice day, and may God bless ya,
Nuke
PS:. Out of this, do you have any preview of when will the engineering deal be ready? Or if it is still up?
And about future trades with RP your team may want, just contact me, I am sure we could get to a nice deal on luxuries, if your population needs them... or strategic resources, maybe?
Just let me know, mkay?
[QUOTE]Hello Beta,
Long time since we last talked eh?
Hope you are doing fine, and hope your team is recovering itself.
I come here to ask if your team would now want to become a part of The Church. It would be a simple process. I would convert you, and appoint you as archbishop of Vox, then you would appoint some other number of bishops in your team, and oficially convert in the main forum (Then when your characterdies, you all would vote for new archbishop of Vox) and your team could once part of the church do cool things like enforcing church´s law and making regional edicts, and voting for Pope, and maybe even electing a Pope of yours! (and with a Pope of yours, make edicts regarding all of the faithfull) .
The only effort you would have to put in it would be to convince your team, and later convert a nation by yourself (of course, this only if you felt like, it is a sugestion, not a requirement).
To oficially become a part of it you would hve to accept the true faith in one God, The Bible as His Word, and the Pope as God´s only True representant, and Christ as the son of God.
Although maybe your team has many objections with becoming part of the church, just let me know and I´ll try to clear the doubts from their minds. If your team decides that after all this won´t fit them RP-wise, then it is ok, just drop me a line and let me know.
Have a nice day, and may God bless ya,
Nuke
PS:. Out of this, do you have any preview of when will the engineering deal be ready? Or if it is still up?
And about future trades with RP your team may want, just contact me, I am sure we could get to a nice deal on luxuries, if your population needs them... or strategic resources, maybe?
Just let me know, mkay? |
For those too lazy to read it it asks if they want to become of the smae religion, asks about the status of the dela for engineering, and about if they have interest in luxuries.
Nuke
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08-07-2003 05:59
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