30-01-2003 00:59									#31
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quote: what appears to be the team consensus, namely that we should trust Vox 100% and plan accordingly

Is that really the consensus? I don't trust 'em. I agree we ought to REX (and not try for the GL). I through the Colossus out there as an option, since it will do a lot less harm to our REXing, and Hurricane is coastal, on a river with a couple of luxury tiles, and is close to EotS (low corruption) making it a good spot for it.

But that got very little reaction, and that's fine. If the only options are GL or full REX, I vote full REX.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 01:07									#32
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I'm not big on the Colossus option, to tell you the truth. I much prefer having Hurricane as a unit-producer. But this is probably because I'm not a big fan of the Colossus in general (except in OCC!).


Dominae

	30-01-2003 01:33									#33
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Understood. Like I said, I'm just throwing it out there (and as you can tell, I'm a big fan of the Colossus - to me, it passed the cost benifit analysis test).

By the way, I noticed the "Spartan Academy" thread had fallen to page 2, and wanted to bring something up, so I posted in it. But no matter how many times I refresh page 1, the thread has not popped back up. It's still on page 2, and shows nbarclay as the last poster (until you click on last post, then you get mine). Wierd.

-Arrian

	30-01-2003 01:46									#34
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The poly database is effed up, if you ask me.

	04-02-2003 13:36									#35
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quote: quick note we have been playing as if it was ratified so since it has been ratified on both sides it is good, BTW, we are about to meet another nation

Interesting. Should we offer them a deal of writing in exchange for both their contacts (Lux and the other nation)?

	04-02-2003 14:56									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Interesting. Should we offer them a deal of writing in exchange for both their contacts (Lux and the other nation)?

Right now Vox is probably operating under the assumption that we've accepted their "trade all techs discovered, at least for the time being" proposal. We haven't explicitly accepted it, but I said if we accepted the Alphabet for Iron Working deal in game, we'd either accept it or give them something else of value (to be determined later) to compensate for the fact that they could have gotten Alphabet more cheaply from another source. In the absence of further word from us, the idea that we've accepted the arrangement they proposed would be the logical conclusion.

The question is, starting from that point, what's the best way to go? And how do we fit that in with the Great Library project?

	04-02-2003 17:36									#37
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Let's tell them this: to compensate for their loss of a good deal on Alphabet, we are offering them Writing, a tier 8 tech and 160% the cost of Alphabet, at the ridiculous price of 2 contacts.

	04-02-2003 18:58									#38
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Shiber, good idea. Further, it would be wise to have a summary of things we agreed to, so that Vox doesn't work from the wrong assumptions.

DeepO

	04-02-2003 19:10									#39
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Also a good idea. I don't want them to get the impression that we've agreed to that tremendously unbalanced "we give them whatever we get and they give us whatever they get" deal.

	04-02-2003 19:34									#40
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"A tier 8 tech"???

	04-02-2003 20:22									#41
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tier 3, obviously.

Further, I don't think we have to compensate anything: they agreed on the double deal, if the situation changed beyond our control, we don't have to pay for it. The deal with the 2x2 techs is over, and no further compensation for that should be given to Vox.

This doesn't say that we can't accept an advantagous deal for Vox next time, we know they are smaller then us, and so we need to keep them in shape to be of use for us. But last deal is over, and they cannot be allowed to bring it into a future negotiation again.

DeepO

	04-02-2003 20:30									#42
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay "A tier 8 tech"???

I meant a tech with the cost factor of 8.

	04-02-2003 20:35									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Further, I don't think we have to compensate anything: they agreed on the double deal, if the situation changed beyond our control, we don't have to pay for it. The deal with the 2x2 techs is over, and no further compensation for that should be given to Vox.

Technically, we don't have to compensate. The deal was fair, and they committed to it. However, we want them to take the writing deal from us, instead of from another civ. IMHO, if we offer them this "compensation", they'll feel that if they take the deal from another civ, they'll miss out on some compensation or advantage and prefer to take it from us.

	04-02-2003 20:38									#44
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What I want to avoid is to tell them it is compensation, as it will mean that Vox will remember that if they wine, they can get a better deal out of it. No, we must be clear that we consider the previous deal as fair, and certainly as honorable (which is more important to us than fairness). Therefore this deal is cheap to them as a gift, and not compensation as there is nothing we feel we need to compensate for.

DeepO

	04-02-2003 21:12									#45
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I agree with DeepO, a compensation won't convey the message we want to deliver Vox- equal partnership. Even if we compromise with them on various deals, we must not make it seem like we treat them any better than they deserve, as this might spoil them- and perhaps also alienate them.

	04-02-2003 22:24									#46
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Remember the key to diplomacy: Figure out what the other side really needs/wants. Vox isn't just looking for a single tech. They're looking for a way to stay in the game tech-wise as much as possible for as long as possible. Vox's fear is that if they give up contacts, they'll end up getting left out of the tech trading loop, so the best way to get the contacts from Vox is to offer some kind of commitment in return (whether participation in the Great Library deal or something else) that preserves their ability to obtain tech on favorable terms at least for a while after we get contact and thus stay in the tech race.

Of course they have to know (and we can remind them in case they've missed it) that once galleys start making contact, their contact monopoly will end. So as long as we can offer a package that leaves them in a stronger positon when that time comes than they would be otherwise, it's in their best interest to take it.

Nathan

	04-02-2003 23:09									#47
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Good idea. Mention to them that we would rather get the contacts from them, in exchange for a tech, than to have to send a galley out and meet the other civs ourselves. This might even give them the idea that we're very close to Map Making (which is not true, but we are going for Map Making next, as I understand), and they will think that they have even less time than they really do.

	05-02-2003 04:01									#48
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Nathan, I agree we need some kind of longer plan with them, but for the moment, they don't do badly by giving us contact with Lux (the other can be negotiated) for writing. Wrap it as a gift, and the Voxians will be delighted, as long as it paves the way for more techs.

DeepO

	05-02-2003 04:03									#49
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Shiber, I didn't hear anything about going for MM next, but of course it does seem high priority to get. We need literature first, with the only exception if we can get MM and lit before the palace prebuild ends in Hurricane.

DeepO

	05-02-2003 05:24									#50
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I'm just about to write a response to LI, and it depends a lot on how and when we're going to contact them. This in turn obviously depends a lot on Vox. Do we have any concrete plan of how we're going to get Map Making or trade for contacts?

Someone please answer soon ("We have no plan" is fine too), I'm planning on getting this message out tonight.


Dominae

	05-02-2003 05:59									#51
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No final decisions have been made regarding Map Making or trading for contacts, although a few possibilities are under consideration.

	05-02-2003 22:26									#52
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We probably need RPG's response regarding the writing release, although we would probably want to contact Lux when we get it if we get a reasonable price from Vox. As for contact with galleys- it'll take a while, but maybe we'd rather wait for that and not pay Lux whatever they want for the contacts. Anyhow, contact with Lux will probably be traded through Vox,

	05-02-2003 23:15									#53
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I've sent a message to LI, in which there is a hint that they may want to purchase contact with us from the Voxians. If they do so, we're in business.


Dominae

	06-02-2003 05:38									#54
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A sligthly other deal proposal for Vox, as we need those slaves early.

quote: We are planning to work on a peaceful project, in which we would like you to participate. It's kind of secret still, and details aren't outlined, but we are certain that we can offer you the following deal: 1. For every worker you supply us the coming 7 turns, you will be allowed two jokers, for every worker given to us in the coming 15 turns, we will give you 1 joker. 2. Per Joker, you can buy any tech from us we have access to, and you like. You can save your jokers, or spend them immediately (e.g. on writing, which we will discover shortly). 3. For as long as you possess Jokers, we oblige ourselves to not start a war between our nations, or to not willingly provoke you into one. We do not expect the same solemn promise from you, but hope that the possibly huge value of the jokers will prevent you from attacking us. Of course, this deal only holds if parties agree to a minimum of respect, we don't intend to start wandering your territory with a large army, unwarned, so please don't do the same to us, we could see it as an act of war. 4. To avoid dishonesty, the Jokers have a lifetime... They need to be used before the end of the Ancient age. More precisely: they can be used for any ancient age tech. If Vox has 3 Jokers, and reaches the 3rd last ancient tech, they will automatically get these 3 techs the moment this is possible for GS (i.e. when GS knows, or is notified that the 3 last techs have been reached, and the rest of the Jokers are cashed in). If somehow GS is unable to cash in Jokers in time, as not enough techs are discovered before Vox has them, the Jokers will extend to the first 'newer' tech that GS discovers. If that is reached by Vox first, the next one, and so on... All this time, the non-aggresion function that the Jokers have will hold. 5. Once all Jokers are cashed in (either before the end of the Ancient age or after it), of course it is not neccesary to end other long term deals. But for the moment, the current planning seems to be wise, as it commits a lot from both teams, to the edge of what long-term duration we are currently able to discuss. Longer deals can come once more trust and friendship between our teams has grown. 6. Last thing; those workers you would supply don't become enslaved in our country, we plan to integrate them into our culture, into our cities. In the unlikely event that one of those cities would flip towards you while you still have Joker(s), you are expected to refuse it. If you don't hold any Jokers, it is yours to decide to accept a cultural flip, but we expect that our relation will at that moment be of such a nature that you wouldn't want to accept it anyhow

How's that?
I think it handles the indefinativeness of our relation, keeps a good timing, and doesn't tell exactly what we're up to. It doesn't say we're going to build the GL, as a Pyarmids build and subsequent GA will make sure we can deliver the techs to them too.

The what-if-we-fail side of things is nastier, as we won't have Vox to trade techs with, but are supposed to simply hand them over...
Something tells me that Vox is going to either get one worker to us very soon, or just deliver 1 worker from us, buying our peace for at least the Ancient age.

Note that even if we get to the Modern age, if Vox still doesn't have all the ancient age techs, they can still hold their last Joker, and thus buy our friendship. I doubt that they are going to play like that (e.g. by not getting Literature and monarchy for the entire game), but maybe we should foresee it, and include another note to counter that.

DeepO

	06-02-2003 05:53									#55
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Maybe another ammendment: add a few examples for them, letting them see their options.

1. If they give us one worker 14 turns from now, they can be 100% protected from our aggresion during the full duration of the ancient period, which can possibly spend another 1000 years.

2. if they give 2 workers fast, they get 4 free ancient age techs, which they possibly can trade with other nations. 2 workers do make up nearly a city, but with the border treaty they have with us, it might be worth the risk of a little less growth, keeping a healthy, and wealthy empire.

3. if they would somehow be able to deliver 5 workers to us in the next 7 turns, they are guaranteed to get the first 10 techs from us, which extend well into the middle ages. Combined with their own research, it could create a stable relationship for the next 150 turns, or without any research it it makes unlimited funds possible for at least well into the middle age.***

*** note to self: even well after the GL. Might want to check exactly how many workers Vox can give in 15 turns.

DeepO

	06-02-2003 06:03									#56
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Nice proposal, DeepO. Some comments:

The proposal makes it blatantly obvious that we're pursuing the Great Library. We could hide this in the following way: 1) include no reference to a "secret project" (sounds too much like SMAC), 2) expand the purchasing power of Jokers to include other things beyond techs (Gold, Workers later on, etc.), this way it is not obvious that we'll tech will be our main advantage, 3) waive the time limit on Jokers, but specify that Medieval techs cost 2 Jokers, 4) not elaborate on what we plan to do with their Workers.

Personally, I feel the workd 'joker' has a bad connotation for a peaceful proposal. Something like 'credit' or 'favor' would sound better.

Finally, although I hope Vox accepts this kind of offer, I doubt they will. Perhaps we should start thinking of ways to sweeten the deal a bit further (perhaps "forgiving" them for forgetting our border treaty deal was not actually ratified?).


Dominae

	06-02-2003 14:33									#57
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Good proposal! You have a very creative mind.
I just have one comment: #6 seems unnecessary to me. Since we'll be integrating all Voxian slaves in Hurricane, I don't see how it's supposed to flip to Vox. Only border cities may flip.

	06-02-2003 15:21									#58
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Shiber, not only border cities can flip, but any city in which either a tile within its radius, or one of its citizens in foreign...

With the bigger culture, and the present troops, it is highly unlikely that we encounter a flip, but just in case... I also tried to keep it in the middle if we're going to add all of the slaves to one city, or rather take 2 or 3 different cities...

As to giving away that we're going for the GL: maybe they suspect it in this way, but at least it is not certain. With the pyramids, or tons of contacts through the lighthouse this same proposal would be possible to keep to.

DeepO

DeepO

	06-02-2003 15:26									#59
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You're right. I rechecked the formula and found a case proving your point. Still, I think the chances are too unlikely to mention, given the importance of the distance to palace factor, and the fact that we'll probably build temples and culture faster than Vox will thanks to our religious trait and Vox's slow production.

	06-02-2003 16:49									#60
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I hope you didn't found one of my examples proving my point, that would be a cross-reference

It all depends on how many slaves we will join, and how much total culture we'll have as compared to Vox. Assuming we get 3 slaves from Vox (quite a lot, but as a worst case scenario), and have the same amount of total culture and 2 troops in Hurricane, the chance would be 0. With 0 troops, and our total culture half of Vox, the chance would become 6/8000, or less then 0.1%. It's still very small, but a 0.1% chance means that over the course of 100 turns, you got a 1 in 10 chance of losing the city. Those odds don't seem so small anymore...

Again, we're in the disadvantage culturally, as we can build temples giving 2 culture but no extra happiness (everyone is happy already), while Vox can build libraries giving 3 culture and more research. Religious is a good thing when it comes to avoiding anarchy, but compared to a scientific civ, it is not nearly as good culturally, certainly not on chieftain. If you use your bonus to get a extremely early temple it pays off, otherwise cheap libraries are always better. I do not assume we'll get more culture then Vox...

DeepO