06-02-2003 17:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The proposal makes it blatantly obvious that we're pursuing the Great Library. We could hide this in the following way: 1) include no reference to a "secret project" (sounds too much like SMAC), 2) expand the purchasing power of Jokers to include other things beyond techs (Gold, Workers later on, etc.), this way it is not obvious that we'll tech will be our main advantage, 3) waive the time limit on Jokers, but specify that Medieval techs cost 2 Jokers, 4) not elaborate on what we plan to do with their Workers.

I tried to camouflage it, but somehow we're going to have to tell them we go for more research in some way. We could simply tell them we need the workers for wonder(s), but it isn't decided yet which we'll go for. Also, it can depend on what others build first...

2) is interesting, but I'm not sure if I want it. Part of the beauty of giving them techs in return for workers is that it doesn't really cost us anything, and certainly doesn't put Vox on top of us. If we would allow to give gold in return, we would make the situation more dangerous to us, as cash can be used in a number of ways. With techs, it is not so easy to turn against us.

Also, part of the reason to do this is of course to keep Vox small, or at least smaller then us. Limiting its growth is very powerful, I don't want to offset that later on, even if we would relatively gain from it. I rather give them republic for a worker then I would give them 3 workers at the time we get republic (and I doubt 3 would be enough for such a 'loan'). We need the pop-boost now, but I don't want them to get a pop-boost later on. Maybe we can propose the same kind of deal if they need population fast, if they are willing to give us something powerful enough in return.

quote: Personally, I feel the workd 'joker' has a bad connotation for a peaceful proposal. Something like 'credit' or 'favor' would sound better.

Right. Joker is not perfect, but it is used (at least in Belgium) to denote a token, which you can save or cash in. Maybe something like talisman, Holy Storm necklace, Token of Debt or something similar will work. As long as it makes it clear that it is not just a credit they get, but a symbolic receipt which will ensure our loyalty to peace.

quote: Finally, although I hope Vox accepts this kind of offer, I doubt they will. Perhaps we should start thinking of ways to sweeten the deal a bit further (perhaps "forgiving" them for forgetting our border treaty deal was not actually ratified?).

Well.. maybe we can sweeten it a little. Ideas are welcome of course, although I don't think that if we 'forgive' them, they will consider it a gift. It would be arrogant from our side, better to simply not speak of that again (other then trying to avoid it in the future, by signing a codex). Adding some examples might clarify it better, as I think that this is for them a very good proposal, as it will be more or less fair to them (they won't need to give cash for our techs), and keeps them safe for quite a while. Further, it doesn't oblige them to anything: they can still attack us if they want to, but are limited here because they have less growth then normal, and have something quite valuable to cash in, which they would lose. I would take the deal if I was Vox, so maybe they will go for it too.

DeepO

	06-02-2003 23:54									#62
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I think this offer is quite sweet for Vox as it is- and i think we should aim a bit higher with our "workers for jokers" fee. Maybe something like 1 tech for one worker in seven or less turn, 3 for 2, and 6 for 4 (1.5 jokers for worker rounded down).
This will not be too high, as 2 for 1 might be, IMHO, and would still encourage Vox to give up those precious early workers. Anyhow, Vox will bargain as they did with the border treaty, so i believe it would be wise to aim higher when starting negotiations regarding the details of a deal.

Other than that, i think the offer is quite good- especially the "secret project" part- it gives them a sense that they are sharing something important with us, like real allies. As it is not as blunt as "we are building the GL", it can't be used as reliable intelligence by Vox. and even if it was, i don't think it is as valuable to them as you might be concerned- i don't see any serious team drastically changing their plans because of one team (and probably not very appreciated one) is telling them that the GS are planning to build the GL.

All in all, i'm in favor of such offer- we need those workers ASAP. If Vox is not interested we might sweeten the deal, perhaps by revealing our project and offering the "you buy all our GL techs for a discount" deal.

	07-02-2003 00:37									#63
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Zeit, doesn't that become too complicated? I agree that maybe we can create some room on our intial proposal for negotiations, but I would rather do it on the timing side of things. At first tell Vox that any slave gifted in the first 5 turns counts double, and every worker in the next 10 single, and if they complain about that, or ask for some other bonus, we simply delay the duration to 7 turns for 2, 15 for 1 joker (or whatever we name the thing).

I doubt that if we give them less jokers for workers, they will go for it, or even consider it.

BTW, one more amendment: the number of workers gifted in the last period (8-15 turns) can not be lower then the number of workers in the first period (1-7 turns). This to avoid having to give 15 techs away, I think Vox, if it focusses solely on it, can produce 4 workers, sending them to the capital, and donating them to us in 7 turns, and another 3 or 4 in the following 8 turns. That would give, in worst case scenario, 12 techs to give Vox, at the expense of not having to sacrifice any growth ourselves. And I doubt that they are going to do it, but we should avoid them cashing in 4 workers in the next 7 turns, and then not supplying any other worker after that.

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 07-02-2003 at 00:51

	07-02-2003 00:56									#64
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I still think 1 for 2 techs is too much, maybe we can delay as well as raise the cost- if Vox will be interested in the deal, we will realize that, and they will bargain. Then the initiative is ours- we can lower it ourselves- and they can accept or keep bargaining. We must, however, give ourselves the room for manuevering. I just don't see Vox giving so much thought for this deal as you might think- they will probably bargain no matter what we offer them.
If they show interest in the deal but the cost it too high- we can talk, and that is what i'm almost absolutely sure that will happen. Vox won't refuse and say that we insulted them with the offer, i just don't see that happening, and i won't risk earning less just for the possibility it will.

	07-02-2003 01:44									#65
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Double-post...'Poly needs a cracker.

Last edited by Dominae on 07-02-2003 at 02:08

	07-02-2003 01:46									#66
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As it stands, offer makes it very obvious we're pursuing the GL. If Vox has this knowledge, it's a safe bet the other three civs on the big continent will learn of our plan too. This will reduce the effectiveness of our plan somewhat, and may ruin our chances at getting it in the first place.

Further, notice that just our proposal reveals this information. If Vox refuses (as I'm betting they will), we're down one secret.

I'm not saying DeepO's proposal is not a good one, just that we have to consider the repercussions of broadcasting our "secret plan" (yeah right) to essentially all other teams.



Dominae

	07-02-2003 02:35									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO It all depends on how many slaves we will join, and how much total culture we'll have as compared to Vox. Assuming we get 3 slaves from Vox (quite a lot, but as a worst case scenario), and have the same amount of total culture and 2 troops in Hurricane, the chance would be 0. With 0 troops, and our total culture half of Vox, the chance would become 6/8000, or less then 0.1%. It's still very small, but a 0.1% chance means that over the course of 100 turns, you got a 1 in 10 chance of losing the city. Those odds don't seem so small anymore...

You're assuming that Vox would donate two workers to our project, which is, IMHO, unrealistic. They started in a desert, and they just plopped their third city in a jungle - they won't give up three early workers. Two is the max.
In that case, we can keep two garrisons in Hurricane and eliminate the chance of a flip. IMHO this is better than asking them to refuse to take the city if it flips, which sounds to me kinda... pathetic.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae As it stands, offer makes it very obvious we're pursuing the GL. If Vox has this knowledge, it's a safe bet the other three civs on the big continent will learn of our plan too. This will reduce the effectiveness of our plan somewhat, and may ruin our chances at getting it in the first place.

Absolutely right. And that's four civs, btw.
Perhaps there's a way we can hurt Vox's reputation, so that even if they tell someone, they won't buy it?

	07-02-2003 04:36									#68
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Well... maybe we can convince Vox that keeping this secret is in their best benefit too. It's not certain that we'll get the GL, or at least not in our communication to Vox, always tell them we think there is a serious risk. The benefit is that we won't need to make commitments we can't keep, and they won't be all jazzed up about it, already assuming we will have the GL, being scared what all the money could do to us. But again, other wonders will net us enough benefits to make sure this deal can go through, and both teams will get better from it in the end.

What competition is concerned: there is one big competitor for this, Legoland. The rest are undoubtedly too busy building up a defense, even if they go along very well. So if it leaks out, I don't think there is any immediate danger, as long as it doesn't reach the Legos. And even then, we will be rather extreme in our approach, I'm still optimistic on our chances...

DeepO

	07-02-2003 04:43									#69
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Oh, Shiber, before I forget, the most important factor when it comes to culture flipping is the ratio of total culture of the civs. That will decide if a few or even one worker will stay in line with 2 defenders or not. But no worries, starting from a culture graph it should not be a problem to correctly calculate how many troops we need to avoid all flips.
And a rough estimate at flipping chances when we understaff a city should be easy as well... I'll keep an eye on our and enemy cities

DeepO

	09-02-2003 21:43									#70
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quote: I am sorry I missed out on the fireside chat that occured last week (or was it the previous week). I feel that much was discussed I don't know about.

Is it possible that Jon did not post the chat log to their forums?
Are they that much disorganized?

	09-02-2003 23:32									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Is it possible that Jon did not post the chat log to their forums? Are they that much disorganized?

That would appear to be the case. Maybe we should slide the log to diss, discretely of course, so as not to insult jon?

That team is playing so half-assed. Such a liability to our future, but hopefully we can manipulate them for a while and eliminate them when the time comes.

On another note: Diss said there was bickering on the continent. Not a suprise, we can barely stay at peace dealing with one civ, theres no way peace could be maintained (or even desired) with four on a continent. Maybe the diplos couldl sniff around and see if they can figure out the situation. RP seems honest and honorable enough to be frank with us.

	10-02-2003 02:10									#72
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asleep, we heard from Lux that there was a lot of tension on the continent, but I don't think it is the whole truth, how come they share techs so efficiently if they're not friends? But you're right what our position to RPG is concerned, I'm expecting a message from GK soon, if this doesn't arrive by tomorrow evening I'll contact him. I'll ask on how the situation is going.

DeepO

	10-02-2003 06:26									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO asleep, we heard from Lux that there was a lot of tension on the continent, but I don't think it is the whole truth, how come they share techs so efficiently if they're not friends? But you're right what our position to RPG is concerned, I'm expecting a message from GK soon, if this doesn't arrive by tomorrow evening I'll contact him. I'll ask on how the situation is going. DeepO

re: the techs. They are not that efficient at trading techs, as four civs are at most two techs ahead of us.

And recall that Vox said that Lux already had writing (who knows the reality)

I do not doubt that there could be some tension there, but probably not enough to cause war yet, I imagine a fragile peace, with each side trying to gatther the other two as allies to elimate the 4th. not an easy peace. intriguing, I wish that I could watch the action from above, omnipotent god like, to see the interactions among the teams.

	10-02-2003 08:33									#74
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To quote Neo:

"Whoa."

	13-02-2003 02:57									#75
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Nathan, did you post the 'what to research?' message to Vox already? It's not in the logs, but I thought you mentioned somewhere that you were sending it... can't find the thread, and can't remember exactly neither (I know, I've been living in a dream state lately, my memory is abandoning me )

DeepO

	13-02-2003 03:05									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I've been living in a dream state lately, my memory is abandoning me)

Sounds awesome.

	13-02-2003 03:07									#77
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I wish it was... but it's primarily a lack of sleep that is causing it.

DeepO

	13-02-2003 04:30									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Nathan, did you post the 'what to research?' message to Vox already? It's not in the logs, but I thought you mentioned somewhere that you were sending it... can't find the thread, and can't remember exactly neither (I know, I've been living in a dream state lately, my memory is abandoning me )

I just sent out my revised version reflecting our latest communication with RP. (My plans to send the original version yesterday were disrupted when NYE showed up with some concerns, but it looks like the consensus to go for Republic is still solid.)

	16-02-2003 03:57									#79
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Maybe it's best to give Vox 10 gold for contact with ND. They offer it to us for 8, let's be nice for once, they have gotten us a lot, lately.

DeepO

	24-02-2003 04:17									#80
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quote: nathan - I remembered math - it is on the table - but forgot contact with Lux. Diss or I will make sure it is there next turn. Have you heard how they are doing? From everything I have read it doesn't look like they are going to make it.

This comes from a message to Nathan from BH, and to me proves that proves they don't "forget" to include/deliver on time, but are doing purposely....

	24-02-2003 04:23									#81
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It appears that Nathan did not reply to Beta's enquiry as to why we wanted contact with Lux. I can't say I blame them for 'forgetting'.

They were working on a deal and did not want us to upset it. Without their assurances that we would not, would we have done any different if the roles were reversed?

	24-02-2003 04:23									#82
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/edit: oh **** it, just ignore me.

	24-02-2003 04:27									#83
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FP. I agree, I think that Vox' forgetting coincides with any increase in tensions with us and their giving something of advantage.

They are a difficult neighbour. We must be careful not to ruffle their feathers if we wish them to be as useful as they can be.

	24-02-2003 04:42									#84
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F-ck that, they are incompetent scumbag liars.

Have we lied? Have we "forgotten" agreed upon items?

Let's burn'em.

	24-02-2003 04:55									#85
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Theseus at his best.

	24-02-2003 05:11									#86
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Takes a bow.

	24-02-2003 13:53									#87
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Voxes last message reads like I approved the move of Lux. This is not correct. Shiber had called me in the chat, and all I said there is, that this matter needs to be discussed and ratified in the team and that I will post a thread.

Just for correction. I'm still against, and should they have done it, I'd even consider to take the city with a lone warrior and gift it back to Vox.

	24-02-2003 14:18									#88
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If Lux doesn't pop rush a defender next turn, they won't be able to hold onto the city if we force the issue unless Vox is willing to attack Hack to stop him (and they'd have to win the fight). Possible exception: if Lux could build a city and give it away with troops inside, that would teleport the troops to our continent (I think), but they'd have to get the timing right to complete the deal in time. We need to decide whether, if the city is still size 2 when our next turn comes, we want to try to take Lux out. (And we may also have a diplomatic crisis if Vox or Lux notices the possibility.)

Nathan

	24-02-2003 18:55									#89
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quote: I'd even consider to take the city with a lone warrior and gift it back to Vox.

I agree on this matter, (well I should, since I mentioned it earlier ). The least we should is threaten them with it.

	24-02-2003 19:30									#90
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Kill. Vox chose to give away Dissentville. It is no longer Voxian - it's Luxian. We take it, and we KEEP it.

TTA baby! *raises clenched fist*

-Arrian