01-03-2003 18:46									#121
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Okay... the last messages:
1. I still would value screenshots of what Lux can see now. Please get that icluded in the deal, as it will take at least 7 turns before we can get a world map from them (with any delay, it will be a lot more)

2. Tell Vox they do not trade CoL for Lit from RP, for the simple reason we do that already. But let them stall RP a while...

3. not trading republic to anyone: I would like it if it is worded a lot less strong, so we can delay others getting reublic, but could still sell it once we think we're sufficiently ahead, and others can give enough for it. Simply not trading it at all would be good for Vox, but not for us: it means we research the most expensive tech of the ancient era, and can't profit from it. Further, he who builds the GL will imediately get the tech, and is not bound to sell it to the rest of the world... certainly a bad deal.
I agree we should keep it to ourselves for as long as possible, but the moment someone builds the GL, or we fear someone is about to discover republic, we should trade as crazy. This deal with Vox prevents us from doing so.

4. ND: we should negotiate that deal, not Vox. However I certainly wouldn't mind if Vox tries to arrange something after we already got what we needed.

5. future research: Currency seems okay. we've got multiple possible ways of getting construction, we're not very interested in monarchy (and we don't need it either to proceed), so the only thing left in the ancient era is currency. I doubt Vox is going to be the first to research it, but let them spend all those beakers on a tech that someone can research faster, it's better then stockpiling gold for their immortal upgrades.

6. Common research image to the outer world: I've been thinking on that one a lot, and it's not easy. First of all there is the problem that Vox's commerce is less then half ours, the longer our common deal is in effect, the less adv antagous is becomes for us. With republic, we certainly crossed the line of balance, and all techs after that will be a greater loss to us. Somehow, we must tell Vox this, and warn them that this situation can't proceed for ever, no matter how much we liked our deal so far.

Further, if we want to keep an image up, the first thing Vox needs to do is keep its mouth shut on where its techs are coming from, so as long as they are relatively late in acquiring it (say a few turns behind the rest of the world), everybody could have been trading with them, not necessarily us. So, we need to make them understand that us not giving our techs to them before we secured a few deals would be in their best interest.

The moment Vox gives Philosphy to us, it will be clear to the world that they researched it for us, and that there was a longer deal in effect to trade it to us. Not a problem, but they need an explanation why they won't trade it onwards. One of the possible explanations could be that we gave them MM, lit, CoL and whatever we'll get from ND for their 'inferior' tech if they simply do not trade with anyone else. But, this explanation can only be hinted at by Vox when other teams are getting upset of their unwillingness to trade philosophy. Also, if the deals get very sweat, I would allow Vox to cross us on that imaginary deal, and e.g. agree to 500 gold for philosophy (from multiple teams together). Of course,we should get part of the proceeds.

This would keep our deal silent for quite a bit longer, and deny other teams anything to trade to Vox, as they already got it from us. Sounds cool to me

7. last point: I would want to negotiate that Vox is allowed to take Portia back the first moment a Bobian civ lands close to Portia, and is able to take it the next turn. No matter how peaceful it's intentions, or how weak their invasion force, the first foreign warrior adjacent to Portia should mean Vox is not only allowed, but required to take the city back. In order to do this, it will need 1 unit adjacent to the city. Oh, and it should send a screenshot of the situation to both Trip and us before they attack, to proof it's not simply an opportunistic move.

8. really last point: don't we need to discuss in more detail how the deal with Lux will end, by specifying when Portia will be captured back? I favor letting it be retaken by Vox the moment Lux's galley leaves port, but so that any gold won by the victory gets returned to Lux immediately.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 18:48									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Btw, perhaps we should add another clause to our agreement with Lux. Assuming that they're telling the truth about settling in Lego's landmass, they'll have contact with Lego. IMHO we need to bind Lux to gifting Vox and ourselves contact with Lego once they acquire it. Chances are high that as soon as Trip leaves our landmass he'll violate this clause, but it's still worth a shot.

I missed something... Shiber, where did you get information that Lux was going to land on lego's landmass?

DeepO

	01-03-2003 19:13									#123
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In regards to 6, Vox's Scientific trait and resulting first Middle Ages tech will bring things close to even at that point. If we start hinting that we are going to end the deal, it would be in their best interests to end the deal just as they enter the Middle Ages, cutting out our biggest advantage in the deal.

We should stay agreeable in regards to this deal at least up until that point.

	01-03-2003 19:20									#124
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I missed something... Shiber, where did you get information that Lux was going to land on lego's landmass? DeepO

I just heard so many people say that Lux is going to Lego's landmass (e.g. the post by Alva that I quoted) that I can't remember where I heard this first.

	01-03-2003 19:31									#125
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I think Aeson is absolutely right. I'm going to open a discussion thread regarding the ending of our tech deal with Vox (whether, when and how).

	01-03-2003 19:37									#126
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Aeson, you're right, forgot about them being scientific. so we need them until after that at least...
I still think it's good to make a temporary balance with them, as giving CoL and all the techs we got for it were certainly enough to offset what we got from Vox earlier.

Also, another idea might be that we arrange it with Vox that whatever we can sell, and get some additional gold we'll do, and everything we would need to pay additionally for we let Vox take care of. I'm pretty sure that the sold our contacts for gold as well, so it's not the worst for them, we should aim to keep them friendly (for the time being), but nevertheless try to gain most from their weak economy.

Shiber: I'm not certain, but so far, I haven't read anything, the only thing I remember is that Lux said in the log that they were not going for legoland, as they can't be reached. They were rather mysterious as to where they were, but that's not a problem, we could ask Vox to establish an embassy with Lux (or we do it ourselves) once they settled, and by splitting the cost, also gain the intelligence. I don't think it will be hard to convince Vox for this.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 20:06									#127
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You're right about the embassy. We don't care whether Lux knows the exact position of our capital or not, since they already know enough about us (and neither does Vox, in case they are the ones who will set up the embassy). Therefore, we can only gain from setting up an embassy in Lux's capital after they resettle.
I'd like us to be the ones who set up the embassy, though. The downside to this is that Lux will know the position and surrounding terrain of our capital, but as I said, we shouldn't care much about this at this point. The upside is that we may want to establish an embassy with Lux later anyway, to sign some sorts of deals, for example. Furthermore, I wouldn't like Vox to set up the embassy and then be the ones to tell us what they see. What if they decide to lie to us? What if we go to war - we suddenly lose a valuable intelligence tool? (and don't forget that when Vox is eliminated, we'll have to set up this embassy again)

	01-03-2003 20:57									#128
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I'd rather have Vox establish embassies with Lux instead of doing it ourselves. The more we can keep our map to our own, the better. Lux hasn't seen anything from our land yet, except the Western end of the spinebreakers, let's leave it that way... and I don't think Vox realises this disadvantage of establishing embassies. And Lux won't have the cash left to establish an embassy in EotS.

As to lieing: screenshots don't lie

BTW, some English lessons, please: is it lieing, or lying? I'm totally confused

DeepO

	01-03-2003 21:31									#129
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You're right, they probably won't lie to us, I got carried away.
Still, I see no real problems with allowing Lux to see our capital and its 21 surrounding tiles, and I'd rather we have private access to the information from the embassy than have to ask Vox for a screenshot every time we want something, which means that information would be delayed, because it'd take Vox time to respond (or they could also stall us this way if they want to), and because we'd lose this source of intelligence when war breaks out; in any case, I don't think we want to depend on Vox for our intelligence.
What more, when we eliminate Vox, we'll destroy the embassy and have to establish a new one.

P.S. I'm 100% that it's lying.

	01-03-2003 21:54									#130
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If Lux sees our capitol, it is then part of their world map... bad idea.

	01-03-2003 22:08									#131
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It is?
Oh, didn't realize that. Well, if this is true then I'm convinced.

	01-03-2003 22:14									#132
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Something many people overlook; you can see more of the land then those 21 tiles on the capital with an embassy. By hitting Ctrl+M (to see the underneath land), the FoW changes, and the borders of all adjoining tiles are lifted as well. We expose in total the general layout of 45 tiles, if I counted correctly. That's a large part of what we kept hidden from Vox up until now, and over half of what players can't see without going through our lands.
(it's not entirely true, as you won't see if gold, rivers or luxs are present in those extra 24 tiles, but you will be able to see if it's jungle, forest or mountain)

DeepO

	05-03-2003 00:23									#133
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If Vox can get Map Making through Lux instead of through us, that would give our deal with Vox some extra cover and probably leave us with better relations with Glory of War than if we'd pass Map Making on to both Vox and Lux. I'm inclined to think that would be worth the 20 gold we'd have to give up to make it happen. 55 gold (the 75 we got from Vox minus the 20 we'd give Lux back), plus the option to get Construction from Lux if we're willing to wait, plus Lux's free tech if we switch to 1.21 in time and it's different from Vox's, could provide anywhere from a marginal return for the hassle and potential risks of letting Lux live to a very nice one.

Thoughts?

	05-03-2003 00:52									#134
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What about their world map? Is this still part of the deal?
It certainly should be, if we want to upgrade it to our favor.

	05-03-2003 01:10									#135
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How about if we say we're willing to give them the gold, but we still want their world map when they get Map Making and we'd like for them to e-mail us a current minimap that we can use in our planning in the meantime?

	05-03-2003 01:54									#136
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Sounds good, but I suggest that we don't mention the word planning Just saying that we need it as a guarantee would suffice. We don't want to raise any eyebrows, we want our request to look as innocent as possible, and we don't want them to think that we're planning something that would require their minimap (otherwise they'd think that they can delay our plans by delaying the minimap, and therefore have a new bargaining chip).

	05-03-2003 17:40									#137
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Good idea, i thought that from the very beginning we should push for the minimap, or screenshots of their main view.
I guess it makes sense to raise the issue now- Trip is looking for a way to stay in the worldwide trading game (i would have told him to forget that dream- Lux has no economical base on which to build any trading capabilities- they should just stick to survival) and with his WM, and now his minimap (as a guarantee, like Shiber said) they can feel, if only for a short time- that they in the game.

Keep in mind that very soon Lux will have no bargaining chips left, and they will realize that. The new proposal Nathan made is surely a fair one, but it puts many restrictions on Lux. I don't know if Lux will stand the pressure- and they could do something drastic- for the sake of fun, or screwing Vox or us. We must be prepared for this- taking out Lux if they seem to stir trouble.

We also have to ask them what they want us to tell or not to tell GoW- we have our considerations here, but perhaps they could help us elegantly evading those issues.
I thought one way to do that is to direct all GoW's questions to Lux, or maybe stalling their move by first inquiring them about the causes of war between them and Lux.
This way we could divert their attention from Lux whereabouts, and have them defending their actions (which they seem eager to), but we need at least partial cooperation from Lux (some sort of debate, or at least some comments they can send us, maybe some fuss on the board as well...).

	05-03-2003 23:47									#138
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Proposed message to Lux (since I've already been involved in the dealings with Trip since they moved here):

quote: Greetings Trip and Lux Invicta, BetaHound has indicated that you and Vox have worked out an arrangement on friendlier terms than what had previously been the case, but that you'll need 20 gold from us to make it work. We can live with that as long as we still get your world map when one of us gets Map Making, and we'd like to go ahead and get a current minimap from you (via e-mail) so we don't have to wait for the full world map to get a clearer picture of the situation on Bob. If you agree, we'll send you the gold as soon as we get the minimap. Since other formats tend to lose small amounts of information in compression, we'd like to get the minimap in .bmp format. (You can send it to me at nbarclay at hiwaay dot net.) I hope this meets with your approval. The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

Edit: Changed to indicate we want the minimap before we give them the gold and to specify .bmp format.

Edit: Changed to "when one of us gets Map Making."

	06-03-2003 00:13									#139
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I like it. Minimap first, then gold.

	06-03-2003 00:15									#140
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One comment: ask for a .bmp version of their minimap, to avoid all confusion later on.

Other then that, it's okay for me too.

DeepO

	06-03-2003 00:24									#141
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I edited the message to reflect DeepO's and Shiber's thoughts. How does it look now?

	06-03-2003 00:27									#142
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Good editing.

There might be one more thing to change, but I doubt it will make a difference: they can give us their WM the moment we discover MM, not when they get MM. I doubt there will be a lot of delay, but still... the earliest would possibly be one or more turns faster

DeepO

	07-03-2003 03:13									#143
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Given Beta's last post to Nathan...

It is now confirmed: Vox are back-stabbing liars.

	07-03-2003 05:37									#144
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Theseus, I don't see the situation as nearly so black and white. The arrangement Vox and Lux had worked out was based on the circumstances that existed at the time. Presumably, some aspect of the situation (or Vox's perception of the situation) changed, and Lux's behavior almost certainly played a huge role in whatever it was that changed. [Edit: And GoW's latest message tells us what it was that changed.] When you're a guest in someone else's nation, you don't cause them problems and expect to be allowed to stay.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 07-03-2003 at 06:03

	09-03-2003 04:18									#145
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RP is giving them grief over Literature? What a laugh, considering RP shopped CoL around.

They should simply delay GoW on MM. They could present that they are in no hurry to make commitments for gold when GoW does not yet have the tech. I assume Vox knows and is supposed to know that GoW does not yet have MM.

Buy the way, we should discourage Vox from involving any requirements from us for their tech trading. It delays their responses and has the very real potential of blowing the cover of our trading agreement. GoW has demonstrated an impatience with negotiating with teams who have to wait for answers from other teams.

	09-03-2003 04:24									#146
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btw, No skin off my nose if they give GoW Literature and a small amount of their own gold for MM.

	09-03-2003 19:10									#147
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why would RP annoy Vox, while not sending any message to us? I can only think that Togas tries to push Vox in believing we did something unfair, while he knows we would instantly brush it off the table as perfectly acceptable. Of course, Vox is easier to influence then us, and I think RP tries to use that...

DeepO

	10-03-2003 06:01									#148
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Since Philosophy is already available from sources other than us, Vox wants to start shopping it around too. I'm going to give them the green light unless someone comes up with a good reason not to pretty quickly.

	10-03-2003 06:02									#149
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I agree, let them try to get anything they can for it.

	16-03-2003 17:26									#150
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A good idea from legoland: try to sell the lego contact to Vox, before someone else does this. We are not bound by any deal as to not disclose it...

DeepO