24-02-2003 19:43									#91
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I don't we will be able to keep it though. Vox got a substantial amount of gold for it, which puts Vox in a rather powerfull position.

Scenario 2:

1. GS takes City..
2. GS SELLS city back to Vox
3. Now Vox is weaker, (smaller city, wasted production, etc)
4. GS comes out on top

	24-02-2003 20:23									#92
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Hrmph. Maybe. Or we could just raze it.

-Arrian

	24-02-2003 22:25									#93
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I too think we should capture Portia, and I think we should keep it (although if we think it'll be useless then we could always raze it). If they're gonna hand us a city on a silver plate then we should take it.

there's always a chance that Lux will pop-rush a spearman when our warrior moves within range - in which case we'd have to back off, but it would set them back even further anyway. They deserve it.

	24-02-2003 22:25									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Kill. Vox chose to give away Dissentville. It is no longer Voxian - it's Luxian. We take it, and we KEEP it.

That could be considered as a violation of the border treaty, and I'm not so sure we want that wretched jungle city that much anyway. Besides, we don't want to look too opportunistic, we save that for Vox.
I suggest that we sell it back to Vox for 100 gold (in cash or gpt, their choice).

	25-02-2003 00:17									#95
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Could Lux poprush a spearman in their turn, before our warrior can take it? if they can, we have lost our opportunity. Our other option is to extort Lux, upgrade one or two warriors (which we need anyway), and just wait for Lux to build a spearmen or any other military unit - something we simply state that is unacceptable by us.

Re Vox: If we play this right, we can use all those little insults Vox throws at us as a cause for future war- we can say they scheme to bring us down by bringing Lux here, and so forth.
Let's not blow the relation with Vox before we're ready folks, this could eventually turn in our favor...

	25-02-2003 08:37									#96
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I suggest a chat with Vox ASAP. We need to feel out their level of commitment to Lux.

Jon Miller will most likely be on tonight.

Nathan?

	25-02-2003 12:37									#97
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I chatted with Jon Miller. Posting logs.

The long and short of it is that Vox may well agree to the one unit in Lux territory, and they would snuff Lux themselves if we are too fussed.

	25-02-2003 12:38									#98
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Oh, and they seem to agree not to send tech to Lux. All this should be shored up officially by Nathan, of course.

	25-02-2003 13:43									#99
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Another fantastic display of Voxian ignorance of and/or lack of attention to the game's mechanics:

quote: - For compensation of this treaty, the Lux Invicta team hereby agrees to send to the Vox Controli team, a sum of 6 technologies total. 3 of these will be the free technologies given to scientific civilizations per era, ...

But wait. Vox is also scientific, so there is only a very tiny chance that Vox will get more than four techs out of the deal, and they're likely to get just three. And that assumes Lux can keep up well enough to get techs Vox doesn't already have.

Nathan

	25-02-2003 14:23									#100
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I agree Nathan, that seems like a very odd clause. I can't see Vox really benefiting from it.

	25-02-2003 20:01									#101
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Here's another thing: Portia is now Lux's capitol, right?

How, exactly, are they supposed to GIFT it back to Vox as required by their agreement?!?!

Vox will have to march in and capture it to get it back, because you cannot gift your capitol to someone else.

-Arrian

	25-02-2003 20:51									#102
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quote: Vox will have to march in and capture it to get it back, because you cannot gift your capitol to someone else.

Not to mention that some of it's inhabitants are very likely to be Luxian's

	25-02-2003 20:56									#103
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Arrian, I thought Lux already mentioned something in this respect, that Vox was supposed to march in once their galley + settler left.

scientific techs clause: very strange, and most likely simply something to keep Vox from thinking they will only get 3 techs out of it. But I even doubt that Lux is going to live long enough to give Vox 1 tech, so I don't mind.

What I find stranger is that I read somewhere Trip saying there was no gold reserve left, as everything was already gifted to Vox, while OTOH they say they are willing to buy writing and MM from us for 150 gold, and all that gets left of their treasury goes to Vox. So, was Voxed paid before or not? (this might be simply because I haven't found the time to read the complete chat log yet). I can't imagine Vox just accepting the deal without any guarantees, but then again, they are Vox...

DeepO

	25-02-2003 21:09									#104
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And Lux IS going to screw someone whatever happens.

It's just a question of who it will end up to be !!??

	25-02-2003 21:54									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO What I find stranger is that I read somewhere Trip saying there was no gold reserve left, as everything was already gifted to Vox, while OTOH they say they are willing to buy writing and MM from us for 150 gold, and all that gets left of their treasury goes to Vox. So, was Voxed paid before or not? (this might be simply because I haven't found the time to read the complete chat log yet). I can't imagine Vox just accepting the deal without any guarantees, but then again, they are Vox...

I think I've read somewhere that Vox didn't demand for all of Lux's money, but a certain amount of gold (200 IIRC). Lux may well have had more than that in its treasury, and that would explain how they're going to pay us.

	25-02-2003 21:57									#106
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I agree, Alva, given their reputation I would assume they are going to screw someone, so I would do everything possible to keep it from being us.

Not sure this is the right thread (I'll repeat if I find the right one), but I propose two changes:
1. trade 150 gold for writing, and the first agreement at staying so close to our borders, unprotected.
2. Once we've got MM, we trade it to them for their worldmap (it should be possible to do this in one deal). No map = no MM.

Add to this the screenshots demanded now, and we should be adequately protected against Lux. If they cross us, and build military instead of settlers, we wouldn't lose that much.

DeepO

	26-02-2003 13:56									#107
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Note last nights logs.

Nathan will be along soon, I am sure.

	26-02-2003 17:43									#108
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nye, interesting log, but allow me to point out you posted it in the wrong thread, it's in the Lux log, not the Vox log...

I'm getting mighty confused on the deal between Vox and Lux, obviously one of the two is not telling everything. Vox thinks Lux has no money left, Lux is offering us 150 gold for the two techs (after having paid Vox).

ND researching literature would be strange, but perhaps possible, but most likely they want to sell RP's literature onwards to Vox.

DeepO

	26-02-2003 17:51									#109
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO nye, interesting log, but allow me to point out you posted it in the wrong thread, it's in the Lux log, not the Vox log...

This IS the Vox log, mate.

	26-02-2003 17:52									#110
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quote: I'm getting mighty confused on the deal between Vox and Lux,

So am I, hence the other post

quote: ND researching literature would be strange,

They could have gambled/hoped on getting a GL to get the GL while at war with LUX (and they are still building units, so the chance that they will be going after one of the other civ's is pretty high and makes sence too).

	26-02-2003 18:17									#111
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet This IS the Vox log, mate.

well, I meant of course the chat log of GS-Vox was posted in the Lux diplo log

DeepO

	26-02-2003 23:28									#112
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Oh darn.

	27-02-2003 06:08									#113
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quote: Originally posted by alva They could have gambled/hoped on getting a GL to get the GL while at war with LUX (and they are still building units, so the chance that they will be going after one of the other civ's is pretty high and makes sence too).

Well... I think they're smarter then that, they won't gamble that risky, IMHO. But you might be right...

It wouldn't surprise me if they were simply selling RP's literature, though

As to them building units: it's very possible that they continue on this path, as their last military build up didn't net them much, but also didn't cost them anything. Switching without gaining would get them relatively behind, so they won't do it now that they know they have a superiority in military force. I doubt they're going to take RP, though, I think GoW makes at least as nice a target.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 08:04									#114
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New messages from BetaHound are in the ambassador's office thread, both regarding our deal with Lux and regarding how to deal with Bobian civs' tech trade inquiries to Vox.

	01-03-2003 08:25									#115
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that new patch certainly had unforseen consequences to the Vox-lux deal. Would be sweet to start the dark ageswith mono and feudal or engineering. Of course, they could both get the same advance, but who knows how random, random is.

Of course, I could see lux easily reneging on this point of that deal, once they are off the island.

	01-03-2003 10:04									#116
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1 small comment regarding MM to Lux.
I still think we should homd it from them until they are able to use it. IE when they have he required shields to complete their galley.

Btw: will vox reclaim their city once lux is sailing away, or will they wait until lux has settled next to lego?
(No city = no research, which will probably mean another 6 to 7 turns at least before completing construction)

	01-03-2003 18:13									#117
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If Lux really builds as crazy on 3 things, a spear, a settler, and a galley, they should be able to finish it rather quickly, certainly if Vox improves their lands. I'm not sure if there is a need to keep MM from them, but of course we could wait to see if we first can sell it to someone else

As to the reclaiming: you're right on the research, but that's Lux's problem. I would rather have Vox take their city back asap, to minimize risk of it getting discovered by the Bobian civs.

DeepO

	01-03-2003 18:17									#118
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Did Vox give Lux permission to pop rush btw, they could end up with some very unhappy citizens

	01-03-2003 18:19									#119
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I don't know... possibly it was never discussed. It would be a good option for Lux, as the city can grow quite easily with the wheat and fish...

DeepO

	01-03-2003 18:24									#120
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quote: Originally posted by alva Btw: will vox reclaim their city once lux is sailing away, or will they wait until lux has settled next to lego?

Btw, perhaps we should add another clause to our agreement with Lux. Assuming that they're telling the truth about settling in Lego's landmass, they'll have contact with Lego. IMHO we need to bind Lux to gifting Vox and ourselves contact with Lego once they acquire it.
Chances are high that as soon as Trip leaves our landmass he'll violate this clause, but it's still worth a shot.