16-03-2003 17:55									#151
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According to the messages from GoW, either we sell contact with Lego to Vox (in violation of the NDA with GoW; true, we didn't really buy it from GoW, but they made it very clear that they don't want anyone whoring off contact with Lego, other than themselves of course), or we let GoW sell Vox contact with Lego and get half of what they make.
Hmmm... maaaybe if we gift our contact with Vox to Lego while Vox gifts us some gold, as if we sold them contact with Lego directly, we could get around GoW's NDA over the Lego contact. What do you think?

	16-03-2003 22:38									#152
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Vox' stupidity (i.e., a colony) demands that we put them out of their misery.

	16-03-2003 23:52									#153
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Grrrr... these are our tech partners?
Once again, I suggest that we end the tech trade agreement after we get their free Medieval tech and as soon as possible without taking any "rep hits".

	17-03-2003 01:24									#154
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Where did they build a colony? I haven't seen the map in ages?

Actually, it's not stupid if they have peaceful neighbours and a slave grabbed from Lux. With boats floating around, they most likely would want to be able to quickly repel landings. I like that.

	17-03-2003 01:50									#155
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They've built a colony on the iron source that is not near Dissidentville. I think this is wasteful, since they could have just settled nearby and then used the worker to connect the iron, or built a cultural improvement in Dissidentville and then used the worker to connect the other iron.
Of course, of they know that they are about to be attacked by a Bobian civ, then that's completely different... but why didn't they ask for help in the form of units or iron (via a trade route)? That's better than using up an expensive worker (very expensive, since most of their territory is either desert, plains or jungle) for a colony.

	17-03-2003 02:20									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber According to the messages from GoW, either we sell contact with Lego to Vox (in violation of the NDA with GoW; true, we didn't really buy it from GoW, but they made it very clear that they don't want anyone whoring off contact with Lego, other than themselves of course), or we let GoW sell Vox contact with Lego and get half of what they make. Hmmm... maaaybe if we gift our contact with Vox to Lego while Vox gifts us some gold, as if we sold them contact with Lego directly, we could get around GoW's NDA over the Lego contact. What do you think?

No commets on this yet. What do you think?
We could get around GoW's NDA over contact with Lego, as I demonstrated, and make a direct profit, or we could let GoW sell Lego's contact to Vox themselves (though it would take a while, since Vox would probably stall this trade for several turns, thinking that Lego's galley would get to their shores soon) and then get half of the profit, according to GoW's promise.

	17-03-2003 04:42									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber They've built a colony on the iron source that is not near Dissidentville. I think this is wasteful, since they could have just settled nearby and then used the worker to connect the iron, or built a cultural improvement in Dissidentville and then used the worker to connect the other iron.

I'm not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, so I'll comment here.

IMO, Vox are not stupid enough to "waste" an entire Worker on a Colony. The only other possibility is that they're desperate to start building Immortals immediately. I would like to know what has caused this reaction in their team. As Shiber said, maybe they're afraid of a mainland civ. Or maybe they want to advance on us (I know, I know, that's silly, because we're such great buddies now...but definitely not something to discount entirely).


Dominae

	17-03-2003 10:59									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere, so I'll comment here. IMO, Vox are not stupid enough to "waste" an entire Worker on a Colony. The only other possibility is that they're desperate to start building Immortals immediately. I would like to know what has caused this reaction in their team. As Shiber said, maybe they're afraid of a mainland civ. Or maybe they want to advance on us (I know, I know, that's silly, because we're such great buddies now...but definitely not something to discount entirely). Dominae

is that their first iron supply or is it redundant? If it is their first, something might be afoot.

	17-03-2003 14:56									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I would like to know what has caused this reaction in their team.

Perhaps we should simply ask them. Something in the spirit of "we've noticed that you've built a colony on the iron and we'd just like to remind you that if you're interested, your friendly neighbors are willing to establish a trade route with you and trade you whatever other resources that you might need, so that you won't have to waste workers on building colonies".
They might reveal something interesting, or they might get caught with a lie - and then we'd know that something fishy is going on.

Btw, I think it's time we build a galley and send it to explore Vox's shore. It could also be used to spot any immortals, thus further extending the capabilities of our early warning system.

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel is that their first iron supply or is it redundant? If it is their first, something might be afoot.

I'm 99% sure that it's their first.

	17-03-2003 15:07									#160
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Vox are taking their time with the save. They usually play their turn within two hours, sometimes even in less than an hour, but now it's been appx. six hours, and counting.
I'm not saying that this means anything. Could be that their players are all asleep or at work / school.

	23-03-2003 00:42									#161
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quote: [21:36] Shiber: Hi. Some tech talk if you've got a minute [21:37] BetaHound: Hi Shriber - how are you? [21:37] Shiber: Ahem. Shiber. [21:38] Shiber: [21:38] Shiber: What is Vox researching at the moment? [21:38] BetaHound: Ah - sorry. -= Shiber, Shiber. Shiber. Got it. [21:38] Shiber: lol [21:38] BetaHound: Currency - but not at a high research rate. [21:38] Shiber: sorry, taking a 40 seconds break [21:39] BetaHound: K [21:40] Shiber: k, back [21:41] Shiber: we have arrangements to get currency, construction and the republic [21:41] Shiber: you will get them for free, as part of the tech agreemenet [21:41] Shiber: *agreement [21:41] BetaHound: Ah - Legoland? [21:41] Shiber: we strongly suggest that you research monarchy instead [21:41] Shiber: can't disclose details, sorry [21:42] BetaHound: That is awfully generous of you. [21:42] Shiber: Yes, we think so too. [21:42] BetaHound: The techs I am talking about - not the disclosure part. [21:42] Shiber: But we're going to gift those techs to you, assuming that you will gift us your free tech in the next age. [21:43] Shiber: yes, i understood that [21:43] BetaHound: Yes -no problem there. [21:43] BetaHound: But can I ask you if you are trading republic? [21:43] Shiber: we are researching one of those techs that i've mentioned. i [21:44] Shiber: i'm not sure my team would allow me to disclose further information [21:44] Shiber: i mean, there's nothing fishy going on - i'm just not sure what information is confidential and what isn't [21:45] BetaHound: Ok - I think I have figured it out anyway. Does lego get our free tech then, he only reason I am asking is that we were working on a deal of currency and const. for our free tech with Lego. [21:46] BetaHound: We think Lego are great long-term partners. [21:46] Shiber: BetaHound: I dunno, I'm not up-to-date. You're gonna have to ask our ambassador. [21:47] BetaHound: OK - I will have jon chat with Nathan. Thanks for the info. But question - why do we even care about Monarchy? [21:48] Shiber: It has some trade value, mainly for the wonder that it opens up [21:48] Shiber: i'm sure some civs would be interested [21:48] Shiber: we don't have any actual deals with anyone for monarchy, i'm just thinking that since we're going to provide all the rest of the techs for free, [21:48] Shiber: and since you have to research something in the meantime, [21:49] Shiber: then monarchy is actually our only choice. [21:49] Shiber: i mean, you can't just stop researching because there's nothing particularly good to research. that would be against our tech agreement, no? [21:49] BetaHound: yes - understood. Or we accumualte cash and send some to you. [21:49] Shiber: hmm... that's also a possibility [21:49] Shiber: will you talk to nathan about that too? [21:50] BetaHound: yup - will do. I will pass the messages along to Jon. Gotta go. Thanks for the chat. [21:50] Shiber: you're welcome [21:50] BetaHound: see ya!!!

We SERIOUSLY have to work harder on coordinating our trades with Vox.
Beta offered that Vox would cease research, thus accumulating gold, and give GS a share of it. That raises an interesting idea - if Vox can give us eternal gpt in exchange for our techs, then perhaps we won't have to ditch them as we planned.

	23-03-2003 00:46									#162
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Jon Miller says that GhengisFarb told Vox that GoW has 6 cities at the moment, and that there is hardly any room left in Bob - just room for two more cities for GoW and two for ND.

	23-03-2003 00:49									#163
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Well, maybe the way they waste land...

	23-03-2003 00:51									#164
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Anyway, what do you think of the idea of getting gpt from Vox in exchange for tech?
Obviously the tech for tech agreement is not applicable anymore (excluding the free tech from Vox at the start of the next age). We can come up to Vox and offer this instead - I'm confident that they would agree, if we set a decent price.

	23-03-2003 00:58									#165
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The gold idea has potential.

They can still seek tech through trades.

	23-03-2003 01:00									#166
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Well, I'd rather if they just sat there and paid us gpt while we did all the researching and trading. This is for numerous reasons:
1. They aren't as good at negotiating as we are.
2. If Vox gets all their tech from us and doesn't trade with anyone else, then the rest of the world loses another potential client.

	23-03-2003 01:15									#167
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Nathan or Zeit, Jon is requesting that you contact him. He is interested in trading minimaps.
Personally I don't think this is such a good idea, but he wants to discuss it anyway.

	23-03-2003 01:30									#168
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Don't do it.

	23-03-2003 01:33									#169
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Yes, anything we give Vox can end up in Bobian hands. But still, I promised to Jon that I would forward his note so I had to post it.

	23-03-2003 03:04									#170
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No minimap trades- what would we need that for?
Now- the gpt seems reasonable, i'd go for it, since Vox are terribly useless in pretty much anything else, besides giving us their workers and gifting they're cities (well forget that, they're too corrupt anyway... ).

As for the land on Bob- that's bull- look at the map of northern Bob that we have: GoW has 4 cities- even near their core they have space for 2 cities, with a wide 3 tiles spacing. And to their east- plenty more. saying they have 6 cities is just bluffing. I bet Vox would back off once they know what is it that they're standing.

I just don't get Darekill- aren't they better off supporting Vox, so they would hold a bit longer? even if they think of attacking GoW- they need to wait a bit until Vox and GoW are fighting- and this way they might really scare Vox off.
It's either they have a real plan, or they just act from the stomach, i don't know what to think anymore...

At least we have the Legos.

	23-03-2003 04:14									#171
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The Lux map we have could be outdated by now, so GoW could have a few more cities then we know.

	23-03-2003 10:08									#172
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Actually, 6 cities make perfect sense. They had 4 when Lux fleed Bob, now they have 6. Seems reasonable.
Assuming that ND founded 2 additional cities as well, they now have 5 cities. GoW says that there's room for 2 more cities for GoW and 2 for ND (a total of 15 cities on northern Bob), which sounds believable, considering GoW's loose build pattern.

	23-03-2003 10:29									#173
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That's bull. Take another look at the maps. A total of 8 cities?

What is behind Imperial city?

	23-03-2003 10:39									#174
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I count a minimum of 14 city sites, being wasteful. That's just from what we can see.

	23-03-2003 10:41									#175
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btw, ND is using 3 spacing. Many more than 14 city sites.

	23-03-2003 10:58									#176
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I'll say it again... the Bobian teams suck. ND is OK with 3-tile, but nothing special. Jesus wept.

	23-03-2003 15:50									#177
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-Thanks NYE

Now, it's perfectly obvious Northern Bob is larger than "Little Bob".

If i were a judge, i'd say Vox has every right to settle into Bob... a shame non of them even thinks this way- Vox is so far from a serious productive core of any of them, why do they make so much fuss about them, and don't strike a deal instead?

Or have they? do we know how their combined chat ended up?

	23-03-2003 20:14									#178
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Zeit, could you please send Vox a letter proposing the idea that from now on, they pay us with gpt instead of tech (with the exception of getting their free tech for free), and that we see this as fair considering that GS's research speed has grown considerably, and that we are close to getting Vox Construction, Currency and The Republic.
Also, does anyone have any suggestions regarding how much gpt we can ask of Vox for a free supply of tech?

	23-03-2003 20:18									#179
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I'd prefer to keep it to lump sums or individual tech trades. We may very well want to go to war with Vox by the end of our GA.

	23-03-2003 20:39									#180
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That's a long time from now.
Getting constant gpt from Vox has many advantages over getting lump sums, or negotiating for each tech individually. For example, if they take the gpt option then there certainly won't be any point for them to purchase techs from other civs, since they'll already be getting everything from us - that means one less client for the rest of the civs, and less gold going to Bob.
As to war, when we think we'll soon be ready to go to war with Vox, we can simply wait for the current 20 turns gpt deal to end, and when Vox tries to renew it and offers to pay us another 20 turns of whatever sum of gpt we agreed upon, we can tell them that we're not interested in prolonging this arrangement anymore.