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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:25
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I dunno about percentage, I wouldn't trust Vox to be honest about their income.
Let's ask for 12 gpt. Considering the fact that we intend to provide them with Currency, Construction and The Republic for free during the next 20 turns, this is more than fair (after all, it's just 240 gold total).
Oh, and an NDA on every tech that we gift them as part of this agreement, of course.
Last edited by Shiber on 23-03-2003 at 22:54
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:25
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Okay, what do you think of this?
quote:
Respected BetaHound of Vox Controli.
Greetings from the Gathering Storm. I bring you this offer, a revision of our current tech sharing arrangement. You have already brought up this idea to Shiber in a chat you had, so I’ll go straight into the deatails:
1) The treaty lasts for a period of 20 turns.
2) in that period of 20 turns, VC gives the GS 12gpt.
2) The GS shares with VC the techs they have researched or have purchased, as soon as the GS acquires the techs, as long as these do not fall under a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with other teams, in which the GS has agreed not to trade these techs onwards.
3) Out of all the techs given to by the GS in the 20 turn period, Republic, Currency and Construction will be for VC use only- and will not be traded by VC to any other team.
4) VC will share with the GS it’s free medieval technology.
5) The treaty can be renegotiated after a period of 20 turns.
I consider this arrangement to suit the current developing situation better than the one we’ve had so far and hope you find it acceptable.
Cordially
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.
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Last edited by zeit on 24-03-2003 at 03:30
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:25
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Re: tech trading:
I see there's little choice left. Vox wants us to commit to a long-term agreement - probably because they are afraid that we might attack them soon. I suggest straight trades from now on, and no NDAs.
Btw, I suggest that we start working on deals for Construction, Currency and The Republic with GoW ASAP.
Last edited by Shiber on 25-03-2003 at 16:21
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
Btw, I suggest that we start working on deals for Construction, Currency and The Republic with GoW ASAP.
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Shiber- you mean ND, right? as we've split the market so that we get Vox and ND, Lego gets GoW and RP...
I'll PM Borc, and ask him which tech do they want, we'll also offer a discount for taking the three together, i'll update the turn threads accordingly.
As for Vox- they're really naive if they think we'll commit to long term deals at this point- heck! even 20 turns is alot for Vox, which can be dubbed "dead team walking"... 
An arrangement were we get their free MT for Cur+Rep+Const is clearly in their favor, and i ask: "should we?" . On one hand- Vox are goners, they won't be able to trade anything for anyone in the near future, so why not get the tech from them- then end their existence?. I'll quote Aeson, IMO viable plan, of declaring war on Vox in about 14 turns:
quote:
Forgot about WC's.
Our first strike capability comes close enough to the Pyramids build that the upgrade to Horsemen would just be a waste anyways. We can have 2 Horsemen, 4 WC's, and up to 9 Swordsmen (likely want to only send 4 initially) in 14 turns, with the Pyramids finishing in 16. The 6 'fast units' almost certainly would be able to take Dissidentville. I would be very suprised if they have built another Spear there yet (they haven't had the city for 20 turns since Lux left, right?), and we haven't seen any troops moving S... so they very well may only have that one Spear.
Building the road and city as I did in the scenario will allow us to hide our troops until the turn of the attack. By that point it should be more obvious what constitutes overwhelming force... they may have most of their units trying to hold onto their BOB foothold. My initial reaction was just to try and figure out our earliest possible offensive, if Vox starts losing badlyand we need to rush to claim some land. RP could do it perhaps, can't see GoW beating us to the punch, certainly not ND.
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That means we get their MT, and that's, according to schedule, well before we declare on them. We will also avoid serious public criticism- everyone will still love to hate Vox, and we'll have ample of of reasons to justify actions against them. OTOH, deciding to end the partnership, and strike the same deal, not as part of a broader tech arrangement, we might give them a signal: "we're about to dump you...". So, we can strike a deal without making any commitment, and possibly arouse their suspicion, or betray them by making them believe the partnership is still in progress... I can't begin to picture their suprised and angered looks when they see our forces marching towards Diss.
We could just hold on and keep them waiting for now, but we know how stressful they get when kept waiting, so i think that time works against us.
So, what do we do about Vox?
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by zeit
An arrangement were we get their free MT for Cur+Rep+Const is clearly in their favor, |
I don't agree. Yes, the editor costs for what they get add up to significantly more, but they'll have a de facto monopoly. If other civs aren't too busy fighting them, Vox could easily trade their free tech to a combination of other teams for Currency, Construction, Republic, and some gold besides. (Yes, it would require another team or teams to give them Currency and/or Construction before getting the medieval tech, but that's completely possible in a human game.) Jon sounded like they had that sort of arrangement in mind until they heard we'd be getting Currency and Construction, if I caught things correctly.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:25
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quote:
I was thinking more in terms of not trading with Bob at all.
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alva- Perhaps in the future, but all the techs we're discussing- we and Lego agreed on selling them, so Bob would have these. As for Vox. I agree they might get these techs for the MT- but will they have any potential customers? will anyone trade with them? Right now, i hardly think so (except Lego maybe, and i doubt they would pay that much), so even in that regard, Vox trading capability is currently somewhat limited.
But, i actually believe we should go for this trade: we would get Vox's free MT- and lose nothing in comparison to other teams, we trick Vox into trusting us for a longer period, leading them into a false sense of security. We would also satisfy Lego's desire to have that free MT ASAP, helping us to create a long-term tech partnership that could be used to create a tech lead- leaving the Bobians behind.
But we must have a sizable force soon, as we wouldn't want this relationships with Vox to continue- we can't depend on them anymore, and they'll surely want to trade to Bob. They're time in the game is about to end, or so it seems, the conclusion is: taking them out ourselves would be the viable option. If done right- this would leave the Bobians to fight eachother, or so we hope, but leaving Vox alone won't help either.
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:25
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Check the log- some interesting news from Vox:
basically what they're saying is: we might survive, but we'll have to pay- in gearing our production and commerce to war efforts, or as tribute to the "Uncles from Bob"...
Beta also referred to their continuation of our trading relationship, what do we tell them about this, what are they thinking, that we're involved in charity- they practically say they'll have no research capabilities, or an ability to give us gpt for a very long time- how much do they think they're MT will buy for them?
From us- i say nothing, we gave enough, and are going to give enough anyway...
I propose this message:
quote:
BetaHound of Vox Controli.
Thank you for your report, the team is very interested in this kind of information. I have a question for you- have you placed your city on a tile with defensive bonus (=hil) or on plains or grassland? I hope it is on a hill, as this will give you some very important defensive bonus. Holding what you currently have will be the most important task- diplomatically and militarly.
As for the tech partnership- i hope you can see our difficulty in this: We have far more commerce than you have, add to that the your obvious need for cash for warrior upgrades. We are trying to find some arrangement that would suit us both, and still be profitable.
I think you have explained to Nathan your understandable difficulties, at this time, to keep up with our research capacity, but please take ours as well when you review our proposals.
Kind Regards
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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Just read last message from BH. It's good to hear they came up with giving us an update without being asked one. It wouldn't surprise me if the public talk about 'lieing is the worst, it deserves a war' pays off... they need to convince us that they did not promise to leave, or they open up another front, and with the changing tech deal, that is far too risky to them. Good. More pressure means better deals 
As to responding: I would first of all thank them, telling them we were hoping they gave us an update, as the news on the public forum has been worriesome. I wouldn't mind telling them that we think it was their logical choice to expand West, but perhaps the diplomatic side of things got a bit neglected... I wouldn't mind pressing again that the accusations of broken promises did not go by unnoticed to us, the only thing it can accomplish is that Vox feels the need to explain some more, maybe even spilling logs or so.
As to mentioning what has been going on: tell them that we had little diplo contact the past week, and that our most up to date info comes from the public forum. Maybe question the role of RP in this, ask them if they feel that RP is the puppetmaster, pulling strings on both GoW and ND. As to lego: they have not said one word about Vox's situation, but I wouldn't tell Vox anything about that. The least attention Lego gets, the better. They asked before on where we got the techs from, also stall Vox here, not anything needs to be said about lego to Vox...
I would include some sentence, telling them we understand if there are delays on the tech trade, because of the current pression, but also kindly urge them to not forget about it, and to keep us updated on any other tech issues they think coming up.
DeepO
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:25
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Check the Voxian reply: i think we can tell them this- you no longer have the pressure of 3 Bobian civs against you- now you can give us some gpt- that's what partnerhips all about, after all...
please comment on this proposed message:
quote:
Honorable BetaHound of Vox Controli
Thanks again for the information. I'm glad to hear things worked out for you- although you had to back out, and obviously had some losses, it could have been far worse. We were also quite suprised of the way RP handled the situation- we would have expected them to at least keep themselves out of this. Perhaps they didn't feel this was the right time for them to antagonize ND and GoW, therefor they joined their "Off-of-Bob" campaign against you. Maybe if you would have timed this with them, things could have been different, but that's pure speculation... 
As for our tech sharing arrangement:
Now that you no longer have to take care of defensive buildup as much as you had to when you had a city on Bob, i think it would be apporpiate to once again go through the details of our tech partnership. I realize Vox's economy is small, but the agreement we had was that each of us contributes as much as he can. The GS has made alot of effort- both on the negotiation tables with other nations, and in our research labs (or dungeons, to be precise... ), to make sure we both keep up with the tech race, and even have our chances at trading techs.
I ask you to review our last proposal for a revision of our tech partnership. I understand you want this agreement to last longer than 20 turns, but like you said- Vox will need some more time to bring up its economy to be able to keep up with the tech speed of the GS and the rest of the world, and make a decent contribution in research. But for the time being, there's no reason not to contribute in another way. Therefore, i want you to reconsider the idea of you giving the GS gpt for 20 turns, after which the arrangement will be renegotiated, to make it adaptable to the changing situation- yours and ours economic capabilities, other trading options, and the like.
I'm sure that some agreement can be reached, based on our last proposals- the details can be negotiated, of course, but please remember what we have here is a partnership- in which both sides contribute as much as they can.
In that regard, i wanted to ask you- have you promised ND to sell Republic to them? I'm asking this because we are trying to work on a deal with them.
Cordially
Zeit, Chief Diplomat of the Gathering Storm.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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I only know saw Vox quoted me in their last message 
Maybe it's good to explain myself a little (sorry for not doing it before, I wanted to, but 'poly had load problems and I couldn't get in at the right time (forget about it afterwards))
Why would RP be the only ones allowed to put GoW and ND against each other, we could do that too. The comment was intended as exactly that: to point out the obvious that this city swap creates the same kind of tension, only between ND and GoW, instead of Vox vs. Bob. Personally, if I was GoW, I would have asked for that city to be razed by Vox, instead of creating a target far from defendable borders. I don't think they saw all ramifications of their deal before doing it.
I agree on your last message, Zeit, however maybe some more info / advice is in order (I agree we can't tell much ourselves). I would answer the following points to Vox:
- Suggest to Vox that they try to stir things up on Bob, especially if they want to resettle soon. Messages like the above one could work splendidly, certainly if they still have contact with the Bobians. Simply letting them ask to GoW how much they fear ND's reaction could be enough for GoW to think Vox has gotten word from ND that they won't tolerate it.
- Alliance: mention that currently, we are not in any alliance, and as long as we feel comfortable that we can handle our affairs ourselves, we do not need to engage the help of someone else. Maybe once we take on Bob, we'll need a partner (which suggests that the moment we would invade Bob, Vox could join), but not now.
- Ask again for the special role RP plays in all of this. The suggestion that they would have noegtiated with RP before landing on Bob is an excellent one, maybe you can take it farther even. Ask why they do not see any alliance possible between RP and us, for instance, or a RP alliance against GoW. RP really seems to be the puppetmaster on Bob, which makes them the most dangerous team in this game.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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A creative, most likely not workable idea: what would it cost to time Vox's next settlement on Bob with an attack on e.g. RP? If we can get Vox to get a beachhead there, only focused on defense (so on a hill this time (they really need to learn something about city planning), with a couple of immortals, and close enough to both ND and GoW to feel threatened, we should be able to divert enough attention to get us a nice 1 on 1 fight with RP.
The trick would be to convince Vox that we support them in their settlement, and let them believe our invasion of Bob would be a help to them, instead of following our own agenda. We could for instance offer to pay for 6 immortal upgrades, if we are going to be sure Vox puts at least 12 immortals on Bob. It wouldn't sound far fetched if we argued we thought it would be good for instability on Bob. By making one of us two the militaritic one(Vox), and one of us the tech/gold partner(GS), we could keep a healthy relation / alliance between two teams that are growing even farther apart in relative size.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
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Just read the message from Vox.
1. I wouldn't mind to give some comments on the tactical situation, although they have the wrong one if they want sound advice . However, we need to discuss this: would it be appropriate of us to do it, fully knowing we are planning on taking Vox later? Can we refuse to do it, without raising suspicion? Maybe we can give a deal where we outline very precisely what we will do, and what we won't. things like:
- build that city on a hills
- build so that you can reach it with a galley in one turn. If possible, arrange it so that you can ferry 4 units each turn
- rush walls in there
- bring enough immortals, and a few spears. Forget about horses
- try to deal with RP
- don't get intimidated by the others
- in exchange, we want a military update on your empire: how many units? how much cash? (bring it like we would help them plan their forces)
- don't do it if you don't have enough reserves standing by. You will need at least 12 units to put on Bob in very short notice if you want to stand a chance against the upcoming UUs (ND is Arab, right?)
2. they are offering us a world map? great! What about offering Feudalism in exchange, if they can wait with their invasion before we can get it. Or we give them the same deal as the others, and say that for their 160 gold, we will gladly accept their world map, and as a gift (and we know they are short in cash) they can get the extra 40 gold for free. It has the added advantage that they will again realize that the tech deal as we had it is over.
DeepO
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23-03-2003 22:24
at all.
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