16-04-2003 06:42									#121
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From Vox:

quote: Hi Ghengis. What gives with CalcII's recent post about Vox having a lot of Immortals? Probably no big deal at this point - as GS will find out next turn what is coming their way - but still - it is a bit out of step with the plan. And - with your falsifying troop reports - it may reveal your hand as well. But then - once feudalism is had - that sort of becomes a moot point as well. It just seemed to odd. That's all. Beta.

	16-04-2003 08:18									#122
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We will tar and feather CalcII later.
(Most likely 50 lashes as well)

I doubt GS will read anything into Calcs comments.
Tell Beta to calm down...all is well.
The public forum is full of mistruths and blatent lies.
We are doing our part and using official channels to let GS know that their force is only minor.

Also tell him that we suggest he does not give any of his troop movements away...(unless he is lieing)
In the same thread, he announced that troops were 5 tiles away, and had also landed on the east coast.

Also .. Are we getting their maps each turn ?

Regs

	17-04-2003 01:14									#123
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The pic of bunch of immortals was available publicly on forum when they landed on our continent.

Define alot, cause 4 ND swordsmen were called "alot".
Beta is being paranoid cause their team has always been cowering in front of GS during their entire existence. I'm kinda annoyed that he didnt PM me about this matter instead.

	29-04-2003 06:55									#124
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I sent Aggie's suggestion to Betahound today, here is the recent reply:

quote: Agreed. Good idea. There is a good landing spot which puts you on a road - it is the tile due north of the mountain where the first GS observer was killed - or 3-3-2 from Elipolis. It is a major road used by us to transport troops south. But our workers can road the tile to the east to facilitate movement. From there you can use the roads on the eats coast to get south. They are not in our cultural zone. Again - we can use workers to extend the road south. Or - we could give you a ROP agreement and make it even easier. You could use the road which goes down the west coasat to Dissdentville and then out to the plains. The problem there again is that we have a constant flow of troops down that road - and we would be getting in each others way. I will post this in our forum - and someone may come up with a bettr idea - for now - move down the coast and head for the spot I indicated. We have a turn to confirm. Any thoughts on feudalism? .... Beta. quote: GhengisFarb wrote on 28-04-2003 20:42: Aggie has suggested we find a spot north of the front and accumulate a larger force before moving into GS territory. Then we could march south with Pikemen to defend our Horsemen. We could also ferrry units to build up the force. quote: BetaHound wrote on 28-04-2003 18:29: Greetings Ghengis. Bit of a setback last turn - we lost 5 immortals on the plains, in addition to your two horsemen. I would recommend that future insertions be south of Whirlwind - where you will not be immediately reachable by chariots. We have pushed south on the mountains with a large stack of Immortals - and now stradle the two cities of Tempest and Atashi. We will have probably taken a few more casualties next turn - but when we reached it Tempest was defendedonly by a chariot. There will be stronger defence there next turn. On the upside - we have 13 immortals heading for upgrades in the next few turns - and we will be reviewing how best to use them. Wew may want them to show up enmasse - now that we almost have a road built which will bring us right to Arashi. No word yet from RP on their involvement. Which brings me to the last issue - feudalism. Pikemen would be very useful to us in this attack. As we advance - we are getting hit via the road network before the full force of the Immortal attack factor can be brought to bear. And our best defender is a 2. Can we please close the deal on feudalism this turn. You are already at war with them - I'm not sure how trading feudalsim early can damage the relationship now. If you could consider this - it would be appreciated. And try and get NeuD off their duff. If they think they can sit this out - well - if GS wins this war - that may be the whole ball game. Not sure if they can see that point or not. Talk with you soon. My regrets about the horsemen. Regards ... Beta.

	13-05-2003 17:52									#125
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I am in a PBEM with Beta, and took the opportunity to fire off an email regarding the GS war. Basically, I asked a lot of questions, but made sure he understood that he should not take anything I say as official GoW approved policy.

I have merged my email with his responses

I have read the war chat that was done with RP.Getting RP involved is a must.

Yes, getting RP involved is a must. We had three chats last week with RP - BigFree, NW, and Togas. They are in. We have plans set for their involvement. We can discuss further at a 3-way war council.

Lego is financing your war right ? Or are they willing to commit troops ?
Would lego finance a mass upgrade of our riders if we needed ? This could be done through you with/or without their knowledge.

Lego is committing financial resources - big time. They do not think it makes sense to commit troops - given teh distances involved. There is no current sea link between Lego and the EAST coast of Estonia.

Would lego upgrade riders - not sure. We are doing our deals through a loan program of sort. It may be best if we got them involved in our chats.

If you tried to declare peace, would GS come after you immediately ? I have little doubt, that you will be their first target once their planned interstructure growth is complete...but would they press on with the war ? I think they would prefer to spend the rest of the GA in peaceful infastructure expansion...but you have had discussions with them about this...what is your opinion ? What concessions would you have to give...if any ?

Peace and GS. We have considered this - and trying to talk GS into landing on Bob. But GS seems pretty ticked with us - I smile - and I'm not sure if they would even agree to a peace. I am preety sure they are very confident they can tale us out - and their war production to-date is impressive. When we started this war - and we know because we watched the mil.advisor screen each turn - we had the largest army in the world and GS the smallest. We came close to catching them off-guard - but the observer set-up, and feudalism, and their early GA all have worked against us. I agree that they need to be taken out - if they manage to get all of Estonia - they will be unstoppable. More than just the survival of Vox is at stake here.

And just to be clear - we have had several polls, and we are committed to this war. We are a small team, and technically in last place. Our mission now is to see this war through to compeltion. This is where MP civ is sooooo different than playing against the AI.

As to discussions with GS - yes - we have had one-on-one off line discussions, with some of their ..er.. more moderate folks.They even doubt peace will sell. And as we have such a small civ to start with - we are not about to sell much of it to make peace which may be short as it is. I doubt GS will ever trust us as an ally again in this game.

We currently have Lego, GoW, RP & Vox aligned against GS. Have you spoken to ND at all ? We do not know how much to trust them. Their scouts would be the ultimate pillagers.

We have talked to ND. They say they are on our side. But other than nice words of support - there has been lttle in the way of substantive support. Not even a deal for engineering - which is a bit frustrating. (I hope you have not made a deal with them. Given you are getting it for 30 gold - which still aggravates many Voxians. Particularly as this came on the heels of you giving 200 gold to GS for feudalism. But - given the plan regarding Chivalry - if it works - we understand your rationale for holding it back from Vox and RP.)

btw - our plan is to ask NeuD for horses. We are building a harbor - they have two sources - we could really use one or horsemen and eventually knights.

Would you be willing to provide us with a complete detailed listing of your military ?
How our alliance differs from GS, is that they have a single defensive plan. We do not have a detailed multi-team offensive. To do this, we are going to need military strengths of our alliance allies, and jpgs of the front line. Our failed "invasion" of horsemen shows exactly what having no plan will do.

Yes - we can give you a detailed listing of our Military. It is now somewhere in excess of 40 units - the majority Immortals or warriors on their way for upgrades. (and keep in mind - GS has an army roughly the same size as ours.)

And yes - I agree - detailed plans are required.


Finally, would you be willing to gift us a city with a barracks so we can do an upgrade of horsemen to riders on your continent ?

The city and barracks plan has considerable merit. I will need to discuss it back at Vox - but it can be done. We have one existing city near the front with barracks where we do our upgrades. We will have to come up with adifferent production method - or build a new city - which we can do in short order. I will discuss with the team.

Many of our team are desperate to formulate a plan...but we simply lack military information. How much are you willing to let us know ? jpgs of the front line would be an excellent start.

As to information - we have sent screen saves of the front to RP. We are more than willing to do that with GoW. I agree that detailed information is necessary to the success of this campaign. We will also need to consider RoP agreements, in the present situation for you to get south, or in a city swap situation so we are not held back by each others borders.

And below is just stuffed he has provided.


Also - regarding plans - in the recent 'replayed' turns because of the crash problems, I notiice the two horsemen did not land. The mountain is a great gathering spot - as you can no doubt see from the world map.

In conclusion - we are committed to this war. We cannot win it alone. We need allies - militarily and economically. So please share this with your team.

In the future - we will also need a good channel of communications - to discuss detailed moves and planning. I have that established now with RP - BigFree and Nuclearis Winterius III. Please let me know who will be the GoW contact. You and Panzer32?

Looking forward to hearing back from you and your team. We are glad the game is back on track - and the war resumes. Cheers - all the best.. Beta.

	05-06-2003 08:53									#126
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PM from Beta

quote: Master Zen - it is very important that we discuss matters on Estonia as soon as possible. Please let me know when and where you or other reps from GoW would be available. Thank-you ... Beta.

Friday would be the best for me. I'm already EXTREMELY strapped for time especially considering the ND chat comes at a very bad time (RL issues).

He should hang out more in the ISDG chat so we can talk more frequently.

	05-06-2003 14:15									#127
	Remove this text

I guess he wants to talk about this ,,,,,,

	05-06-2003 18:25									#128
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quote: Friday would be the best for me. I'm already EXTREMELY strapped for time especially considering the ND chat comes at a very bad time (RL issues).

I'm free most of Friday except from around 2-3 and after 6 PM EST.

	05-06-2003 19:07									#129
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Im free most Friday as well.

	05-06-2003 19:14									#130
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Some email tag I had with Beta

quote: Beta... We get the save after ND. Here is the Pic. We cant hold onto the save for too long.... Are you on line at all ?

quote: Hi H_E. Doesn't look good does it. Howver - we think we can take the northern city next turn. I will be around this evening for chats. Say, 6pm edt on. I had a good chat with BigFree of RP last night. They are still committed. But to be honest - this is going to take more than 4 units from each of you. Unfortunatley, we have wakened the sleeping giant. . ... Beta.

quote: How can RP get their military to you in time...and survive the GS galley guantlet ? Are they sending you Iron ?

quote: Yes - that is the plan. Rp also has a galley some 5 tiles away.

	05-06-2003 21:38									#131
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I'll probably be connected at night today, let's see if I can catch Beta... if not, I'll PM him to have a chat tomorrow

	07-06-2003 04:28									#132
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Just got email from Beta

quote: And hey, are you and MZ around later tonite to talk ptwdg. Serious times at Vox - we need to make some decisions - and where others sit is key. Talk to you soon. .. Beta.

I have asked for a time... but if anyone can catch up with him...go for it

	07-06-2003 09:42									#133
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I just got an e-mail from him too...

I'm in the chat right now but he's not there. I'm asking him to give us a definite time because I've been busy as of late and have been less in the chat than usual.

quote: Hi MZ. Been trying to chat with GoW for awhile now. Things are somewhat unsettled right now - but not as desperate as some of the public chat may lead you to believe. We need to discuss if you are still on-side. We have not heard from you in awhile, and there is no sign of any galleys - other than the first of the RP expeditionary forces. I have confirmed that RP and Lego are still very much on-side. And we have written NeuD asking about horses. We have yet to hear from them. We would also like to know of the availability of Chivalry - which could be decisive in the current conflict. As H_E, Panzer32, and yourself have all gotten quite quiet as of late - we are curious as to what is up. Please contact me. Thanks - and regards - Beta.

	12-06-2003 23:47									#134
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Chat with Vox at 9 PM EDT tonight

	13-06-2003 05:01									#135
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From Beta(formerly hound)

quote: June 12 Chat - Backgrounder I thought it would be useful to distribute some points prior to the chat to save time for discussion. To start with - here is the peace deal we offered to GS: - they get south Estonia - we gift Dissidentville to them- - we do a public mea culpa - Beta to do that. - we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era. Jon to do this - we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns. -we provide our free tech going into the next era. -we will not attack Inchon -we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia - this includes Harry and his gang trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. (We did this and the units were eliminated.) -and ask if they want to move Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping. -we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression This was rejected by GS. However - they still put a peace deal back up on the screen, and we sent back the deal unaccepted, with Dissidentville added. That was the same turn they eliminated our Immortals who basically left themselves undefended. They were damaged and would have eventually gone down. We are told the GS hawks out-number the doves. We are also told that our deception going into this wear was just too good, and they don't feel they could ever trust us. They are willing to give us some limited time to get off of North Estonia, but they do not want us to stay. They want the entire continent. So - now - GS has landed 7 units in North Estonia. But the good news is that they did not reinforce Inchon. We can take Inchon this turn or next. But we do not have many units in North Estonia. It will be a scramble to defend against the intruders. What we propose is that: 1. Vox publicly post our peace proposal. This will make it look like we are trying to win over world opinion and that you are all still sitting on the fence. 2. This will hopefully protect the RP galley which is now in amongst the GS galleys to avoid being taken out on the GS move. 3. RP land its two horsemen on North Estonia - at a spot to be determined. This will depend on what GS does with its troops. We hope they will attack Elipolis which will keep them further south. The attackers of Inchon will soon be there. 4. RP land its other two units asap. 5. GoW land its 4 committed units (btw - we will provide RoP's to RP and GoW). 6. At the same time as landing the units - and once RP's galley is safe - GoW, RP, and Lego all declare their support for Vox in messages to GS. I suspect this may be sufficient to make them think twice about this. Also - our GA has just ended so GS' will end shortly as well. This turn or next. The good side of this plan is that it does not involve major troop commitments. But GS does not need to know that. The downside is if they call the bluff. By then we will have ringed North Estonia to prevent landings - and loaded all our troops into Elipolis. There may be political fall out for the three of you - but I don't think GS could risk that level of isolation. Even with NeuD not at the table. Where do they stand on this by the way? The strong, silent types. The hint of a future tech trade embargo would be something to think about. You could all convince them that Vox is like a little child which has learned its lesson and will sit in its corner for the rest of the game. But the big concern to all of us is if GS does get the entire continent. I think it will be easier standing up to them now than after they have developed all of Estonia. See you in the chat. .... Beta.

	13-06-2003 05:57									#136
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Send the Mercs to help them remove GS forces north of Elipolis. Also, the mercs help in the land blockade.
ie. we honouring our deal

Only agree to a joint statement backing Vox if all other teams agree....we cannot risk being the only team to show support. We can tell GS we have to do it or face the wrath of Lego's allies.
We must agree on the wording.
It must insist only on "grave consequences" if GS refuse to allow Vox to live in peace.
We can define what grave consequences later
And it does not really commit us to any action

But really, Vox are goners.
GS wont stop.
And this is a dangerous precedent ... We dont want a joint UN demand that we back off on RP in our war.

So... suggest to Beta..
1. They disband Dissidentville...give GS NOTHING !
2. They forget about Inchon. Just rush everything to Elipolis
3. They get rid of those Northern invaders
4 they use units for a land blockade (ours, theirs, RP's)
5. They poor everything they have into the defense of Elipolis
6. Confirm with Beta, that the GoW evacuation plans are still an option. 1 city only, and only until they get Engineering.

	13-06-2003 05:57									#137
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chat is in #tigertalks password kitty on apolyton.

	13-06-2003 08:02									#138
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Session Start: Thu Jun 12 20:56:42 2003
Session Ident: #tigertalks
[20:56] * Now talking in #tigertalks
[20:56] * Topic is 'Conference Room For RP-Vox-GoW-Lego '
[20:56] * Set by BigFree on Thu Jun 12 13:03:52
[20:56] [Panzer_32] hello guys
[20:56] [vondrack] hello, Panzer!
[20:56] * BetaHound has joined #TigerTalks
[20:57] [vondrack] ah, great!
[20:57] [vondrack] hi, Beta!
[20:57] [BetaHound] greetings!
[20:57] [BetaHound] how is everyone?
[20:57] [vondrack] perhaps we could start a bit earlier?
[20:57] [Panzer_32] hello Beta(-hound)
[20:57] [BetaHound] n/p
[20:57] [vondrack] I might not fall asleep then...
[20:57] [BetaHound] GoW expecting anyone else?
[20:58] [BetaHound] Panzer?
[20:58] * vondrack slaps Panzer_32 around a bit with a large trout
[20:58] [vondrack] Panzer!
[20:58] [Panzer_32] I'm here
[20:58] [BetaHound] he's dead - NO he's not!
[20:58] [Panzer_32] I'm reading
[20:59] [vondrack] expecting anyone else from GoW, Panzer?
[20:59] [BetaHound] war and peace?
[20:59] [Panzer_32] Master Zen doesn't normally show up for another hour or so
[20:59] [BetaHound] You are from GoW - just do the first half.
[20:59] [Panzer_32] GhengisFarb and Hot_enamel are online, GF might show up; H_E probably won't
[20:59] * NuclearisWinterius has joined #Tigertalks
[21:00] [NuclearisWinterius] hello all
[21:00] [Panzer_32] Unorthodox might
[21:00] [vondrack] hi!
[21:00] [BetaHound] All Ok with GF these days?
[21:00] [Panzer_32] yeah
[21:00] [BetaHound] good!
[21:00] [BetaHound] HI NW
[21:00] [Panzer_32] reminds me.. I have to set up an election poll
[21:00] [BetaHound] Beta for president of GoW?
[21:01] [NuclearisWinterius] HEy Beta, The man who never answers PM´s
[21:01] [NuclearisWinterius] I vote for Togas as supreme president of GoW
[21:01] [BetaHound] Ah - sorry my dear sir. But conversion to catholicism has not benn high on our - er agenda - as of late.
[21:02] [BetaHound] I hope you can appreciate that.
[21:02] [vondrack] LoL
[21:02] [NuclearisWinterius] I see
[21:02] [NuclearisWinterius] but you didn´t even asnwer to the ones about... err... nevermind
[21:02] * vondrack sets mode: +ooo BetaHound NuclearisWinterius Panzer_32
[21:02] [BetaHound] err - the pictures - with the young ladies ???
[21:02] [NuclearisWinterius] Thanks VOndrack
[21:02] [NuclearisWinterius] eeeh?
[21:02] [NuclearisWinterius] whathe?
[21:03] * NuclearisWinterius has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[21:03] [BetaHound] I din't think men of the cloth were allowed such indilgences.
[21:03] [BetaHound] indulgences
[21:03] [BetaHound] oh well - scare him of as it was.
[21:03] [BetaHound] Sorry Togas.
[21:04] [BetaHound] So - shall we start?
[21:04] [Panzer_32] sure.
[21:04] [vondrack] ok with me
[21:05] [BetaHound] Togas?
[21:05] [BetaHound] earth to Togas...
[21:06] [BetaHound] ...come in please ...
[21:06] [BetaHound] (static in background)
[21:07] [Togas] hello
[21:07] [Togas] sorry, was in the kitchen
[21:07] * Sharpe has joined #Tigertalks
[21:07] [Sharpe] Hi
[21:07] [BetaHound] Ok - welcome; Let's go
[21:07] [BetaHound] Hi Sharpe - welcome.
[21:08] * NuclearisWinterius has joined #Tigertalks
[21:08] * vondrack sets mode: +oo NuclearisWinterius Sharpe
[21:08] [BetaHound] Welcome back NW
[21:08] [NuclearisWinterius] Don´t you hate when you press the sleep key instead of delete?
[21:08] [Togas] I'm ready to start
[21:08] [BetaHound] So - did evryone get the backgrounder?
[21:08] [Panzer_32] ssshhh its about to start
[21:08] [Panzer_32] yes
[21:08] [vondrack] yes
[21:08] [Togas] you mean the PM?
[21:09] [Togas] I got a message that my PM box was full
[21:09] [BetaHound] is it still?
[21:09] [BetaHound] or give me you e-mail and I will send yo the discussion paper
[21:09] [Togas] I'll go clean it out again. I wrote you back via email hoping you'd send it there
[21:09] [Togas] send to tom_ogas@yahoo.com
[21:10] [BetaHound] will do - one sec
[21:10] [Sharpe] Anyone from ND online at the moment (doubtful given the time of day)
[21:10] [vondrack] errrrrmmmm...
[21:11] [Panzer_32] nope
[21:11] [vondrack] I am quite sure I am the only insane Euro here
[21:11] [NuclearisWinterius] Hmm, I didn´t know vondrack was a coin
[21:12] * MasterZen has joined #Tigertalks
[21:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +o MasterZen
[21:12] [NuclearisWinterius] Well, has any of the krauts contacted anyone about their participation?
[21:12] [NuclearisWinterius] hey MZ
[21:12] [MasterZen] greetings
[21:12] [vondrack] hey, MZ!
[21:12] [MasterZen] I actually made it
[21:12] [BetaHound] MZ - hello!
[21:12] [Togas] wait, Beta, BigFree posted your PM to our forum!
[21:12] [Togas] I'm reading it now
[21:12] [BetaHound] MZ- Did you get the backgrounder?
[21:12] [Panzer_32] MZ, did you see the background stuff in the forum (or in a PM)
[21:13] [MasterZen] did you guys just start?
[21:13] [BetaHound] yup
[21:13] [BetaHound] We were waiting for you]
[21:13] [BetaHound]
[21:13] [MasterZen] lemme check... I just got home 2 min ago
[21:13] [Panzer_32] haven't said anything really yet
[21:13] [vondrack] just making sure everybody knows what we are going to talk about
[21:13] [BetaHound] exactly
[21:13] [Panzer_32] MZ - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...635#post2085635
[21:13] [MasterZen] bah, I like impromptu discussions better :P
[21:14] [vondrack] Panzer, the link does not work for me!
[21:14] [BetaHound] me neither!
[21:14] [MasterZen] probably from our private forum?
[21:14] [MasterZen] yep
[21:14] [MasterZen] hahaha :P
[21:14] [Panzer_32] oh thats too bad, VD. you should have join GoW
[21:14] [MasterZen] I'll send you an application form
[21:14] [BetaHound] MZ - you might want to gibve it a quick read - it will save me having to re-post it all here.
[21:14] [MasterZen] don't worry, I'm reading...
[21:15] [BetaHound] k
[21:15] [BetaHound] OK - so you have all seen what we proposed to GS.
[21:15] [BetaHound] And you have seen our proposals regarding holding North Estonia.
[21:15] [Togas] hrm....
[21:15] [BetaHound] The basic question is are you up for it or not?
[21:15] [Togas] I'm pondering this.
[21:16] [BetaHound] Big Free says...
[21:16] [MasterZen] I like point 1
[21:16] [BetaHound] That he has talked to NeuD and that they are on-side - ie will support such a plan...
[21:16] [BetaHound] and will even provide horses.
[21:16] [BetaHound] To Vox
[21:16] [MasterZen] that would be a really big PR hit for GS...
[21:16] [Togas] ND said that they would have a poll on providing horses.
[21:17] [BetaHound] ah? That is different.
[21:17] [Togas] What I'm wondering is this ... has your southern army been crushed? Is the offensive over?
[21:17] [BetaHound] No - not at all. We still have some 20 immortals, 10 pikes, 8 warriors, and 3 catapults in and around Inchon.
[21:18] [BetaHound] We have left 3 pikes to hold D-ville as ling as possible - and to destro roads.
[21:18] [BetaHound] The army is still intact,
[21:18] [NuclearisWinterius] are tehre prospects for raising another one?
[21:19] [BetaHound] % Immortals we moved from the mountains to the plains as a show of good faith were destroyed.
[21:19] [BetaHound] 5 immortals
[21:19] [Togas] Yep, they're not big on Good Faith over there
[21:19] [Panzer_32] why don't you disband Dissidentville and use the pikes for Elipolis defence?
[21:20] [BetaHound] Could do. We want to delay their push north - but that makes good sense.
[21:20] [Panzer_32] It also denies GS a future city
[21:20] [BetaHound] agreed
[21:20] [Panzer_32] You also talk about taking Inchon.
[21:20] [NuclearisWinterius] 4Question: Would Vox have naval means to break a blockade against BEta-by-the-Sea?
[21:21] [Togas] One thing I want to Echo with MZ is ... you should post the peace proposal
[21:21] [BetaHound] OK - so 1 is a go.
[21:21] [MasterZen] yes, ASAP
[21:21] [MasterZen] that way we can all post our support
[21:21] [MasterZen] and tell the world about the Immortal move
[21:21] [BetaHound] as to Inchon - yes - we can take it. This turn or next.
[21:21] [Panzer_32] What would the purpose of taking Inchon be? It would only spread out your defensive line.
[21:22] [BetaHound] As to breaking a blockade - we have 3 galleys - one vet - and catapults. Two galleys on the way.
[21:22] [BetaHound] The purpose would be to destroy their other military force in the north.
[21:22] [BetaHound] We do not want the city.
[21:22] [Panzer_32] What I envision is a circle of units around your lands, with the interior undefended.
[21:22] [BetaHound] yes - agreed.
[21:22] [Togas] We can take care of our galley. Don't worry about that. My main concern right now is that the plan for using our troops in the past is pretty much over. I'm trying to decide if landing troops would do any good.
[21:23] [BetaHound] It would be their appearnace which would have value.
[21:23] [BetaHound] And in fact - two of the units they landed are Chariots.
[21:23] [Panzer_32] Then GS has to attack Elipolis if they want anything - and that will be heavily defended
[21:23] [BetaHound] P32 - agreed.
[21:23] [BetaHound] We would load all pikes and pults into Elipolis.
[21:24] [Panzer_32] Also, is Elipolis building walls?
[21:24] [BetaHound] Has them.
[21:24] [Panzer_32] good
[21:24] [Togas] The goal in the past was to destroy GS. The goal now is just to survive, yes?
[21:24] [BetaHound] yes.
[21:24] [BetaHound] And...
[21:25] [BetaHound] to limit GS's access to North Estonia.
[21:25] [BetaHound] deny actually
[21:25] [MasterZen] is it militarily feasable?
[21:25] [BetaHound] yes
[21:25] [Panzer_32] is there any estimates to how many chariots GS has?
[21:25] [Togas] They have 2
[21:25] [BetaHound] not many
[21:25] [MasterZen] see, the point is that it is only necessary for them to THINK they can't do it
[21:26] [Panzer_32] so the rest is swordsmen?
[21:26] [BetaHound] exactly!!!
[21:26] [BetaHound] med inf
[21:26] [MasterZen] thus the need for deception and bluff
[21:26] [Panzer_32] right
[21:26] [BetaHound] but mostly pikes
[21:26] [BetaHound] and a certain show of solidarity.
[21:26] [Panzer_32] is their GA exhausted yet?
[21:26] [BetaHound] this turn.
[21:26] [BetaHound]
[21:26] [Togas] If the goal is peace, Spain would like to help strengthen the peace without pointing GS over in our direction for a new conflict.
[21:26] [BetaHound] Your welcome.
[21:27] [Panzer_32] I believe, in all seriousness, that it is possible to sucessfully defend Northern Estonia.
[21:27] [BetaHound] Togas - that is why solidarity is required
[21:27] [BetaHound] as do I
[21:27] [BetaHound] Togas - so that you are not singled out.
[21:28] [Togas] I'm willing to stand with Lego and GoW on this, but only if they actually stand with us. Passive support won't do us any good if GS's galleys decide to drop their med inf on Barcelona to get back at us.
[21:28] [BetaHound] That is why GoW has to land its troops as well. And why Lego - who have provided considerable support via other means - both need to nmake their presence felt via PM.
[21:28] [Togas] as you know GS is not very fond of us...
[21:28] [BetaHound] I know.
[21:28] [BetaHound] They blamed you for the start of the war.
[21:28] [BetaHound] What a hoot.
[21:28] [BetaHound] Sorry - I am laughing at GS here.
[21:29] [Togas] I think it would be funny if it was someone else
[21:29] [BetaHound] Agreed.
[21:29] [NuclearisWinterius] GS has it´s greedy eyes turned toward the whole world!
[21:29] [BetaHound] Agreed.
[21:30] [BetaHound] So - MZ, Panzer?
[21:30] [MasterZen] but not before they build
[21:30] * NuclearisWinterius feels itches to release his propaganda machine
[21:30] [BetaHound] Will GoW land its troops?
[21:30] [BetaHound] hehe
[21:30] [BetaHound] me too
[21:30] [Panzer_32] yes
[21:30] [MasterZen] no, seriously, understand their psyche
[21:30] [MasterZen] yes re: land
[21:30] [BetaHound] MZ - yes?
[21:30] [MasterZen] they are a very very mixed team
[21:31] [MasterZen] which a very easily picked with their ego
[21:31] [BetaHound] yes
[21:31] [MasterZen] curiously their military coordinators, Theseus and Arrian are actually the more level-headed of the bunch
[21:31] [vondrack] I believe I can say that Lego is ready to clearly state its support to end this war - be it in public or through a PM to GS. We will do our best to help, but you all know that we are unable to get our units there in a reasonable time frame.
[21:32] [BetaHound] vondrack - understood.
[21:32] [Togas] I am torn about landing our horsemen. Here is why:
[21:32] [MasterZen] we should all make public our support in the as-yet-posted thread
[21:33] [Togas] We had a long chat with GS today, not entirely upbeat, but in the end peaceful. We discussed the presence of our galley in their waters...
[21:34] [Togas] and after a lot of really stupid assuptions and lame arguments and paranoia about it, they finally relented to not killing the galley next turn

	13-06-2003 08:03									#139
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

[21:34] [MasterZen] which GS members did you talk to?
[21:34] [Togas] giving us a chance to finally get a map of their entire island for once, and probaly the only time.
[21:34] [Togas] Shiber, Zeit, and OPD
[21:34] * History_Guy1 has joined #Tigertalks
[21:34] [MasterZen] and those are the level headed ones too...
[21:35] * Retrieving #tigertalks info...
[21:35] * Togas nods.
[21:35] [MasterZen] try talking to Sir Ralph...
[21:35] [NuclearisWinterius] Welcome HG
[21:35] * NuclearisWinterius sets mode: +o History_Guy1
[21:35] [Togas] our saving grace (in their eyes) was that we told them about the galley instead of them just finding it and killing it.
[21:35] [Panzer_32] Togas: how do you get the map?
[21:35] [Togas] since we just moved it there last turn.
[21:35] [Togas] we have only a map of Voxia
[21:35] [Togas] we need a map of GS
[21:36] [Sharpe] so you are planning to scout around the GS coast then?
[21:36] [Togas] we want to, yes.
[21:36] [Togas] hopefully we'll get that chance.
[21:36] [BetaHound] That is the same story GoW used.
[21:37] [Togas] wouldn't surprise me
[21:37] [MasterZen] which they bought :P
[21:37] [BetaHound] yes
[21:37] [Sharpe] admittedly we don't see much of GS at the moment
[21:37] [Togas] that galley holds 2 horsemen. The next galley holds 2 swords, but we can put pikes in it instead, as it's still near the Spanish coast
[21:38] [BetaHound] S - you feel the map of GS is more important than the show of solidarity on North estonia?
[21:38] [MasterZen] swords or med infs?
[21:38] [Togas] we belive that we can show solidarity without landing horses, yes.
[21:38] [BetaHound] And that we will be scrambling to defend cities for the next few turns?
[21:38] [Togas] MZ -- swords.
[21:39] [MasterZen] if they call our bluff we'll be having a shooting war with those guys
[21:39] [Sharpe] How does each team feel about GS anyway?
[21:39] [Togas] there is still the option of us sending iron to Vox. I'm not quite sure why that idea was dismissed.
[21:39] [MasterZen] swords will be at odds to hit pikes
[21:39] [BetaHound] We had originally planned on using that as a sign of non-aggression towards GS.
[21:40] [BetaHound] It may still be a factor - or on the flip side - it may be seen as a sign of weakness.
[21:40] [Sharpe] Togas, wouldn't that leave you without an iron for the moment?
[21:40] [BetaHound] Yes - it does.
[21:40] [Togas] not more than a turn
[21:40] [Togas] we have our workers near the 2nd iron.
[21:41] [BetaHound] Yes - iron would be very useful.
[21:41] [Panzer_32] the one in the mountains?
[21:41] [Togas] yes
[21:41] [BetaHound] But it may also get you on GS hit list.
[21:42] [History_Guy1] That's the trouble.
[21:42] [Togas] oh, it will...
[21:42] [vondrack] sorry for a dumb question... but how do GS find out who is providing the iron?
[21:42] [Togas] giving it away will p*ss them off to no end. Selling it will make them angry, but at least we can justify it and claim neutrality.
[21:42] [vondrack] I read it is "easy"
[21:42] [vondrack] but have no idea...
[21:42] [Panzer_32] They will assume/eliminate others
[21:43] [Togas] they have an embassy with Vox, so they can use the f4 screen to see who has a deal with Vox.
[21:43] [Panzer_32] right
[21:43] [History_Guy1] Vondrack, they seem to have their own suspect's list, they'd narrow things down.
[21:43] [Panzer_32] the embassy doesn't close during war?
[21:43] [History_Guy1] Yes, that's right.
[21:43] [Togas] it closes, but the F4 screen remains a good source of intel
[21:44] [Panzer_32] hehe must make use of that more often in my own games
[21:44] [vondrack] hmmm... if GoW, ND, and RPers all trade SOMETHING to Vox then...
[21:44] [Togas] anyhow, they cannot be 100% sure, but with only us and ND having extra iron ... it's not hard to figure it out
[21:44] [Togas] maybe if ND trades horses
[21:44] [Togas] we send iron
[21:44] [Togas] and GoW sends wine
[21:44] [MasterZen] we send wine
[21:44] [BetaHound] Togas - as to the map - we can give you our world map which shows what you really need to know about GS.
[21:44] [MasterZen] get the stormchickens drunk
[21:45] [Togas] but still, GS is going to assume it's us
[21:45] [BetaHound] And - GoW troops will be visible,
[21:45] [BetaHound] And all nations will have protested their takeover of Noerth Est.
[21:46] [Sharpe] Hmm if ND also traded with Vox, the iron could also come from them?
[21:46] [BetaHound] I don't think they will undertake a cross channel invasion of RP.
[21:46] [Togas] GoW troops = mercenaries. It's no surprise to see them in a fight. Seeing Spanish horses, however, especially after we made such a big fight in chat to get that galley south ... it seems to them like our puppetmaster hands at work
[21:46] [BetaHound] Sharpe - agreed. Especially if ND provdied horses.
[21:47] [vondrack] hmmmm... would it be possible to sell that iron to, say, GoW, who would in turn sell to Voxes?
[21:47] [BetaHound] puppetmaster???
[21:47] [BetaHound] ah - your hands - sorry - slow on the uptake.
[21:47] [Togas] You know, GS's belief that we're the secret puppetmasters that made you fight them
[21:47] [Panzer_32] I don't think thats possible
[21:47] [BetaHound] yes - understood.
[21:47] [BetaHound] bozos
[21:48] [BetaHound] GS that is.
[21:48] [MasterZen] just tell them RP hangs alot with GoW these days and their mercenary ways are starting to stick...
[21:48] [Togas]
[21:48] [BetaHound] sounds good to me.
[21:49] [History_Guy1] Heh. That's not bad.
[21:49] [vondrack] hm, just checking - trading for iron, using it to upgrade whatever is needed and immediately "breaking" the deal is cheating, right?
[21:49] [Panzer_32] I don't think so
[21:49] [Togas] I don't think so either...
[21:49] [vondrack] then what's the problem?
[21:49] [Togas] would it be possible for us to Give, and then you accept, update, and the break the deal?
[21:50] [vondrack] RPers send their iron to Voxes, Voxes upgrade, and break the deal
[21:50] [Togas]
[21:50] [vondrack] GS will never be able to see any trade line on the F4 screen
[21:50] * Nimitz has joined #tigertalks
[21:50] [Panzer_32] it would involve declaring war temporarily. GS might see this and might make a connection.
[21:50] [BetaHound] Other than we can't use it right now. Most of our units are south of Elipolis.
[21:50] [NuclearisWinterius] hey admiral
[21:50] [Nimitz] hey all
[21:50] [Panzer_32] so we wait until we can use it
[21:50] [BetaHound] hello Nimitz
[21:50] [BetaHound] agreed
[21:51] [MasterZen] sounds good
[21:51] [History_Guy1] Hello Nimitz
[21:51] [vondrack] declaring war? why? I think you can break a deal even without declaring a war? or not?
[21:51] [Togas] I see no problem with sending an emergency iron shipment, you guys will just have to break it off somehow.
[21:51] [Nimitz] so whats happenned
[21:51] [BetaHound] OK - but our immediate concern is 7 units in North Estonia.
[21:51] [MasterZen] cut the supply
[21:52] [MasterZen] pillage a road or something
[21:52] [BetaHound] Nimitz - looong story.
[21:52] [Togas] to cut the supply we'd have to do it next turn
[21:52] [Togas] for 1 turn GS would see the trade active.
[21:52] [Togas] and, we'd have to cut BOTH irons
[21:52] [Togas] because if we cut one, we lose our iron, but the trade remains.
[21:52] [NuclearisWinterius] bye all
[21:52] [vondrack] bye
[21:52] * NuclearisWinterius has quit IRC (Quit: )
[21:52] [MasterZen] yes ture
[21:52] [MasterZen] *true
[21:53] [MasterZen] hmm..
[21:53] [History_Guy1] Bye Nuc
[21:53] [vondrack] I would have to test it, but I believe it is possible to break the deal from the F4/trading screen...
[21:53] [vondrack] by clicking on it
[21:53] * Panzer_32 sets mode: +o Nimitz
[21:53] [vondrack] like the war/peace trick we had to use to get over the crash-point
[21:54] [History_Guy1] War against Egypt seems too risky. The only war that could defeat them is a guerilla war in which all of the Bobian civs took part.
[21:54] [Nimitz] this is going to get complex if vox survives the war
[21:54] [Togas] Step 1) Post that peace proposal, perhaps invite those of us who agree with the proposal to state their support.
[21:54] [Nimitz] there going to have to go through the peace war trick
[21:54] [BetaHound] We promise to lay real low. Exit the world stage.
[21:54] [Togas] We all post our support of the peace
[21:55] [MasterZen] and don't forget to mention the "good faith" things you've done
[21:55] [Togas] but if GS refuses to budge on their unreasonable demands, we escallate, threaten to send "peace keepers" to Estonia ... perhaps at Vox's request
[21:55] [vondrack] side-note: Beta, stress how GS slaughtered your troops that "surrendered"
[21:56] [MasterZen] yeah, that was the "good faith" thing I mentioned
[21:56] [MasterZen] tell them of the cruel and horrendous slaughter, as only Beta can!
[21:56] [vondrack] LoL
[21:56] [History_Guy1] I like that. They blackened their honor. Why should they be dealt with honorably?
[21:56] [BetaHound]
[21:56] [Togas] Beta, you could always publicly call us out and invite those of us who believe in peace to send peacekeepers to stop the conflict
[21:56] [Nimitz] the info minister ya
[21:56] [BetaHound] But we continue the war against their trrops in the north.
[21:57] [Togas] frankly, if you kept fighting, I doubt any of us would care much at all.
[21:57] [BetaHound]
[21:57] [Togas] Propoganda-wise, you guys have won the information war.
[21:57] [Togas] it's not as if any of us are going to change our opinions on it now.
[21:57] [BetaHound] hehe
[21:57] [MasterZen] heck, if there was a "propaganda victory", you'd have won the game already
[21:57] [vondrack] hm, but that's "defending the very homeland of The One" (re: fighting in the North)
[21:57] [MasterZen] GS diplomacy sucks
[21:58] [BetaHound] agreed - to both MZ and vondrack.
[21:58] [Togas] GS diplomacy reminds me of Kruschev banging his shoe on the podium and shouting "we will bury you!"
[21:58] [Sharpe] Well GS is the #1 civ right now...
[21:58] [BetaHound] OK - bgut I have the real concern of their troops in North Estonia.
[21:58] [BetaHound] That is why I wanted the RP horses.
[21:59] [Togas] I hear you, but I don't see how we can deal with that stack this turn.
[21:59] [History_Guy1] Aye, they might do just that...
[21:59] [vondrack] right, Beta, tell us - what you can field against this force of GS there?
[21:59] [BetaHound] one sec.
[21:59] [vondrack] and where exactly did they land?
[21:59] [Togas] to the NW of Eliopolis
[21:59] [Sharpe] good point
[22:00] [History_Guy1] Above Eliopolis
[22:00] [Panzer_32] GoW can land 3 units on Estonia this turn and 1 next turn (3 units include a horse, others are slowmovers)
[22:00] [Togas] I think they have 2 WC, 2 pikes, and 3 Inf
[22:00] [Panzer_32] Farthest south we can land is SE of Whittlich
[22:01] [Nimitz] not good
[22:01] [Nimitz] the GS force
[22:01] [History_Guy1] It's a military chokepoint.
[22:01] [vondrack] NW of Elipolis - that is just behind the chokepoint city, right?
[22:01] [History_Guy1] Yep.
[22:01] [vondrack] what is the Elipolis garrison like?
[22:01] [Sharpe] so GS's chariots can reach the square between Beta and Harry by next turn if they want
[22:02] [Panzer_32] sorry, S of Whittlich
[22:02] [BetaHound] OK - the Elipolis garrison is not stellar.
[22:02] [BetaHound] 3 spear and one warrior
[22:02] [Nimitz] not good
[22:02] [vondrack] no chance to reinforce?
[22:02] [History_Guy1] Not stellar? Might repulse the chariots, but other than that...
[22:02] [BetaHound] Surrounding Inchon we have: 3 pults, 6 pikes, 14 immortals
[22:03] [Nimitz] thats not bad
[22:03] [MasterZen] that wont repulse the infs
[22:03] [vondrack] what can you move back to Elipolis? some pikes?
[22:03] [vondrack] at least one...
[22:03] [Panzer_32] I suggest moving all of those to Elipolis
[22:03] [History_Guy1] If they capture, will they burn? It looks too strategically important for that.
[22:03] [BetaHound] Coming back from the south we have: 7 oikes, 4 Immortals, 1 spear, 4 warriors.
[22:03] [Sharpe] yeah any units on that hill SE of Elipolis
[22:03] [Panzer_32] Inchon is not too strategically important
[22:03] [vondrack] taking Inchon does little good, not losing Elipolis does a lot of good
[22:04] [vondrack] exactly
[22:04] [vondrack] moving two pikes back to Elipolis should do the trick
[22:04] [BetaHound] No one can reach it next turn.
[22:04] [MasterZen] what the hell is an Oike?
[22:04] [BetaHound] Just the spears I counted.
[22:04] [vondrack] damn
[22:04] [BetaHound] Voxian pike. An Oike!
[22:04] [Nimitz] pray for luck
[22:05] [MasterZen] two pikes plus the 3 spearman and a warrior should be able to hold for 1 turn
[22:05] [History_Guy1] I ask again...what's the chance of them burning Eliopolis if they catch it?
[22:05] [BetaHound] Probably good.
[22:05] [Sharpe] too bad you can't draft units yet
[22:05] [BetaHound] yes.
[22:05] [Sharpe] well you can poprush at least one unit
[22:05] [BetaHound] yes.
[22:06] [vondrack] will not be technically "ready", I think
[22:06] [BetaHound] nope
[22:06] [vondrack] plus, it would be just another spear
[22:06] [vondrack] regs or vets there?
[22:06] [Sharpe] both true
[22:06] [BetaHound] regs
[22:06] [MasterZen] damn
[22:07] [BetaHound] I say we let them hgit Elipois. It will damage their unitrs and draw the south - which is what we want.
[22:07] [History_Guy1] So, despite the strategic value of the city, they'd probably burn it? If so...I'm sorry, chaps.
[22:07] [BetaHound] n/p
[22:07] [BetaHound] It can be rebuilt.
[22:07] [BetaHound] I would rather they rebuilt it than kept it.
[22:07] [BetaHound] we rebuilt
[22:07] [History_Guy1] Assuredly. I just hope that this one helps to damage Egypt very badly indeed.
[22:08] [Panzer_32] I don't think its necessarily as bad as we think
[22:08] [Sharpe] well with Walls your spears will be like pikes at least
[22:08] [Panzer_32] the spearmen are fortified for more than a turn?
[22:08] [BetaHound] P32 - I agree.
[22:08] [vondrack] yeah, just a little bit of luck is all you need
[22:09] [BetaHound] Yes - one is. Two would just be moving there
[22:09] [vondrack] if at least 1 medinf fails, you have a very good chance
[22:09] [BetaHound] They have 3 med inf, two pikes, two chariots.
[22:09] [History_Guy1] Well, they have five offensive units?
[22:09] [BetaHound] And I for one - hope they use them all against Elipolis.
[22:09] [vondrack] chariots kinda lack the punch though...
[22:09] [Panzer_32] say infs take out 2 spears, 2 WCs have to take out a spear and a warrior. If either one of them fails, its up to the pikes.
[22:10] [History_Guy1] Ah. Well, two are useless in the attack, two more won't break through...
[22:10] [BetaHound] Yes - even the warrior may hold them off.
[22:10] [Sharpe] more likely they would use the chariots to try to intercept any reinforcements coming south
[22:10] [History_Guy1] The Infantry will be making the assault...the Chariots will only go in as a last resort.
[22:11] [BetaHound] MZ and P32 - when can you land the four units?
[22:11] [Sharpe] without iron your reinforcements would likely be archers or spears or warriors which chariots can easily handle
[22:11] [MasterZen] I think the units are ready
[22:11] [BetaHound] Next turn?
[22:11] [Togas] if I were them, I'd use the chariots to cut the roads
[22:12] [BetaHound] Togas - that is what I figure will happen.
[22:12] [History_Guy1] Beta, maybe the are being sent in to tear up as much as they can. It's a raid.
[22:13] [BetaHound] That is my real fear. I would rather they attack Elipolis.
[22:13] [Panzer_32] MZ and P32 - when can you land the four units? 3 units this turn, 1 next turn
[22:13] [Sharpe] Let's say we propose the peace treaty and GS refuses, what then?
[22:13] [BetaHound] Ah - that would work. Whereabouts?
[22:14] [Panzer_32] S of Whittlich is the farthest south we can go to land this turn
[22:14] [BetaHound] South of Wittlich city
[22:14] [BetaHound] great. That is what I am worried about. At all costs we need to protect Wittlich, The Voice and Miller Town.
[22:15] [vondrack] thinking it over, I doubt it is a raiding party - a raiding party would most likely land much further to the North
[22:15] [History_Guy1] Yes, that's the trouble. A guerrila action in the midst of your own country would be much more effective than losing the whole stack taking out one city.
[22:15] [BetaHound] Either way - if it buys some time - and lets us close the gates - then that is Good!
[22:15] [vondrack] agreed
[22:16] [Panzer_32] If you want, we can land the turn after next turn on the hills by Beta-by the sea
[22:16] [BetaHound] vondrack - that was as far north as they could - and I er - left a tile uncovered by mistake.
[22:17] [BetaHound] P32 - I think the Wittlich landing is best. We will grant you an ROP - you can use the roads and do damage.

Last edited by Panzer32 on 13-06-2003 at 08:08

	13-06-2003 08:03									#140
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes, its a long one

[22:17] * WhiteBandit has joined #tigertalks
[22:17] [WhiteBandit] holy crap!
[22:17] [WhiteBandit] good day
[22:17] [WhiteBandit]
[22:17] [BetaHound] hello WB
[22:17] [Nimitz] hey
[22:17] [vondrack] hi
[22:17] [Panzer_32] ok, do we have an embassy with each other though
[22:17] [BetaHound] Thisa si the save Vox's ass chat.
[22:17] [BetaHound] Are you in the right room?
[22:17] [WhiteBandit] i'm on RP
[22:17] [WhiteBandit]
[22:17] [MasterZen] yes he is
[22:18] [BetaHound] j/k
[22:18] [Nimitz] lol
[22:18] [BetaHound] Panzer - not sure. Can you set one up. We do not have much cash. We will pay half.
[22:18] [vondrack] we could help here if cash was the problem
[22:18] [History_Guy1] Hello White Bandit. We're just wondering how to smite the Egyptian scum.
[22:18] [Panzer_32] I'll check
[22:18] [WhiteBandit] gotcha
[22:19] [BetaHound] looks like not.
[22:19] [Panzer_32] ok, how much does it cost for you?
[22:19] [Nimitz] how about you run them into the ground
[22:19] [BetaHound] 73
[22:20] [Panzer_32] 30 for us
[22:20] [BetaHound] Yowzer. We will send you the 15 next turn.
[22:20] * ZargonX has joined #tigertalks
[22:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ZargonX
[22:20] [Nimitz] hey
[22:20] [vondrack] heya, Z!
[22:20] [ZargonX] ah, hello everyone!
[22:20] [MasterZen] heey
[22:20] [ZargonX] finally made it back online...
[22:20] [Togas]
[22:20] [Sharpe] Hi Zargon!
[22:21] [Nimitz] good to see ya
[22:21] [ZargonX] glad to be back!
[22:21] [ZargonX]
[22:21] [BetaHound] Greetings Zargon!
[22:21] [BetaHound] Zargon - we wnated to tahnk-you for the commitement of 10 galleys and 20 troops.
[22:21] [BetaHound] It will help the cause.
[22:22] [ZargonX] heheh
[22:22] [BetaHound]
[22:22] [BetaHound] So - we will do our announcement.
[22:22] [History_Guy1] Hello Zargon
[22:22] [Nimitz] people tell me thes things before you do them ;
[22:22] [ZargonX] hi History Guy!
[22:23] [Nimitz] I need to know for policy
[22:23] [BetaHound] I will leave it up to each civ to respond publicly or directly to GS
[22:23] [BetaHound] GoW will land next turn.
[22:23] [Nimitz] ;
[22:23] [Togas] excellent
[22:23] [BetaHound] RP and the horsemen - I'm still not sure.
[22:24] [Togas] I'm also unsure
[22:24] [BetaHound] I would prefer you to land.
[22:24] [BetaHound] And I think you can see my rationale for it.
[22:24] * Kloreep has joined #tigertalks
[22:24] [Kloreep] Hi.
[22:24] [Nimitz] hey
[22:24] [MasterZen] look, we all must coordinate: first publically via the thread
[22:24] [BetaHound] hey Loreep
[22:24] [Togas] I hear you, but I don't see how landing 2 horses will help much :/
[22:24] [BetaHound] Klo
[22:24] [MasterZen] then with the joint military committment
[22:24] [MasterZen] again, it is a bluff
[22:25] [MasterZen] we hope they won't call it
[22:25] [BetaHound] MZ - exactly.
[22:25] [History_Guy1] Hello Kloreep
[22:25] [Togas] however, since our turn is last, we have some time to think about this and discuss it
[22:25] [Togas] so I will certainly keep this open and hopefully talk more about it with all of you and with my team.
[22:25] [BetaHound] Lnd on the hill south of Beta-by-the sea. Nice resort town by the way, Great women and wine.
[22:25] * MasterZen sets mode: +o Kloreep
[22:25] * MasterZen sets mode: +o WhiteBandit
[22:25] [History_Guy1] It won't help, really. The defensive units are better.
[22:25] [MasterZen] wait till you try our GoW wine...
[22:26] [Togas] it's good stuff
[22:26] [BetaHound] HG - yes - but is the presence that counts.
[22:26] [ZargonX] you haven't had anything until you've had a vintage '50 Pinot Vondrack
[22:26] [History_Guy1] Master Zen...wait till you try our RP squids.
[22:26] [History_Guy1] Try this little guy. Calamari for everyone.
[22:26] [Sharpe] Admittedly GS will hesitate if they see troops from 2 foreign nations in Vox
[22:26] [BetaHound] Yes Sharpe - that is the key.
[22:26] [MasterZen] bah, wait till you try a '69 Dom Panzergnon
[22:27] [vondrack] guys, can we get back to the point, please? 4:30am here
[22:27] [Nimitz] hey were'd you get the grapes
[22:27] [BetaHound] yes - plse.
[22:27] [MasterZen] ok summary:
[22:27] [Sharpe] GS is strong, but they can't be thinking that they can take on 3 civs at once
[22:27] [MasterZen] Beta starts a thread
[22:27] [MasterZen] 2) we all publically show our support
[22:27] [History_Guy1] Sharpe, no, three civs will be a match. Hopefully we can get support from others as well.
[22:27] [MasterZen] 3) military committment gives substance to said support
[22:27] [MasterZen] 4) we keep on chatting to discuss political and military developments
[22:28] [BetaHound] Question - who should approach ND?
[22:28] [Togas] all of us
[22:28] [Togas]
[22:28] [BetaHound] yes - true.
[22:28] [Togas] but MZ and I, I'm sure, can send them a message tonight.
[22:28] [MasterZen] Togas, I think we should at least PM them
[22:28] [BetaHound] That would work.
[22:28] [vondrack] good idea
[22:28] [MasterZen] crosspost
[22:28] [BetaHound] As will I
[22:29] [ZargonX] We can contact ND as well
[22:29] [MasterZen] I can e-mail them tonight
[22:29] [MasterZen] we all should though
[22:29] [BetaHound] OK - great - can vondrack go to bed then?
[22:29] [History_Guy1] We should all approach ND.
[22:30] [BetaHound] And folks - we are serious about lying low for awhile. We will try yo avoid causing this much havoc in the future.
[22:30] [BetaHound] to avoid
[22:31] [History_Guy1] Aye.
[22:31] [Togas] awwww
[22:31] [Togas] what fun is that??
[22:31] [Nimitz] if only things had gone the other way
[22:31] [BetaHound]
[22:31] [MasterZen] Vox is now synonymous with mayhem
[22:31] [BetaHound] yes - we were about 6 turns too late getting there.
[22:31] [ZargonX] One Voice, and boy is it a shouter
[22:31] [BetaHound] hehe
[22:31] [Togas] You're still our heros
[22:32] [Nimitz] while lux is synonymous smoke
[22:32] [Nimitz] with smoke
[22:32] [MasterZen] hahahaha
[22:32] [BetaHound] OK - well one and all. Thank you.
[22:32] [Sharpe] you mean Lux's ruins are still burning?
[22:32] [Nimitz] lol
[22:32] [MasterZen] we turned them into whore-houses
[22:32] [BetaHound] But I do believe we have a common interest here - and it is not about saving Vox.
[22:33] [History_Guy1] Nimitz, Lux is synonymous with just about anything disparaging...
[22:33] [Panzer_32] GoW has respiratory problems b/c of Lux's still burning cities
[22:33] * MasterZen sneezes
[22:33] [History_Guy1] Allergies, eh?
[22:33] [ZargonX] BH: agreed
[22:33] [MasterZen] wait, before we finish...
[22:33] [BetaHound] yes?
[22:34] [BetaHound] team hug?
[22:34] [History_Guy1] Aye?
[22:34] [MasterZen] we have not yet discussed the worst case scenario
[22:34] [Togas] LOL
[22:34] [Sharpe] Yeah, anyone know how strong GS really is? Aside from being #1 that is
[22:34] [History_Guy1] Please, spare us, Beta...
[22:34] [BetaHound] MZ - we have a plan b.
[22:34] [MasterZen] worst case scenario: they call our bluff, and get militarily lucky
[22:34] [History_Guy1] MZ, worst case? Egypt smashes Vox, and kills everyone else.
[22:34] [History_Guy1] That too.
[22:34] [MasterZen] well, that's the incredibly-ridiculously-ludicrously-worse scenario
[22:35] [BetaHound] We run for the hills. With what we can.
[22:35] [MasterZen] hills turn into sea eventually... what after?
[22:35] [Panzer_32] which hills?
[22:35] [BetaHound] Under discussion.
[22:35] [History_Guy1] MZ, I see. That sounds about right.
[22:35] [Togas] gotcha
[22:35] [BetaHound] P32 - do not worry.
[22:36] [BetaHound] But's let think positively!!
[22:36] [MasterZen] we don't worry, you're the ones that should!
[22:36] [BetaHound] Ah - I don't think we are destined to win this game.
[22:37] [BetaHound] We just want to live and have some fun.
[22:37] [Togas] if you survive for a UN vote ....
[22:37] [BetaHound] haha
[22:37] [ZargonX] fun... what is this fun you speak of?
[22:37] [BetaHound] Hadn't thought of that.
[22:37] [MasterZen] UN vote would be just so ridiculously funny...
[22:38] [BetaHound] Vox might for GS....
[22:38] [BetaHound]
[22:38] [History_Guy1] Zargon...that's what we ask when the Egyptians are tying us between two bent palm trees...
[22:38] [BetaHound] SR for Sec Gen.
[22:38] [Togas] god no!
[22:39] [MasterZen] ha ha ha
[22:39] [History_Guy1] Horror.......
[22:39] [BetaHound] sorry Togas. Didn't mena for you to lose your dinner.
[22:39] [Sharpe] LOL GS would probably nominate Grog for Sec Gen
[22:39] [BetaHound] OK guys - so is it a wrap.
[22:39] [Panzer_32] Vox: Remeber to send 15 gold so we can embassy you
[22:39] [MasterZen] well, I'd vote for grog :P
[22:40] [BetaHound] ok.
[22:40] [BetaHound] Next turn OK.
[22:40] [History_Guy1] Grog? He's dead!
[22:40] [History_Guy1] Aye.
[22:40] [Nimitz] good for Vox
[22:41] [History_Guy1] So it is written, so it shall be.
[22:41] [Kloreep] Poor Grog is dead... a candle lights his bed... he's looking oh so peaceful and serene. (And serene!)
[22:41] [BetaHound] OThanks once again folks.
[22:41] [Nimitz] we no longer have to worry about him
[22:41] [MasterZen] no problem
[22:41] [MasterZen] always glad to have a Rest-Of-World conference
[22:41] [Sharpe] LOL as if we have done this before
[22:41] [ZargonX] this is like our League of Nations meeting...
[22:41] [ZargonX] a first!
[22:42] [Togas] true
[22:42] [MasterZen] haha
[22:42] [BetaHound] See you in the public forum - where Vox will play poor down-trodden, peace loving civ that we are.
[22:42] [MasterZen] oh.. if only Trip were here! LOL
[22:42] [ZargonX] seriously, where is our world historian?
[22:42] [BetaHound] Bye guys!!!
[22:42] [Kloreep] Bye Beta!
[22:42] [Togas] peace, Beta
[22:42] [Sharpe] he would say , now why didn't you do this for Lux!!
[22:42] [History_Guy1] Kloreep, his mother waits for the sound of his boots upon the stairs...sounds that will never come!
[22:42] [ZargonX] later, Beta!
[22:42] [vondrack] Bye, everybody!
[22:42] [Sharpe] Bye
[22:42] [Nimitz] lol
[22:42] [History_Guy1] Bye bye, Beta!
[22:42] [ZargonX] 'night, Vondrack!
[22:42] [Togas] funny historical note:
[22:42] * BetaHound has quit IRC (Quit: )
[22:42] [MasterZen] g'nite Beta
[22:42] [History_Guy1] Later, chaps.
[22:42] [Nimitz] no one told him
[22:42] [History_Guy1] Where is Trip?
[22:43] [Kloreep] Bye vondrack!
[22:43] [vondrack] I actually told him to not attend
[22:43] [Togas] When Lux was burning, we met and pretty much decided that Trip was screwed and ... oh well ... nothing we could do
[22:43] [MasterZen] bye vond
[22:43] [vondrack] Trip will be able to read the chatlog in our forum
[22:43] [History_Guy1] Togas, that sounds about right.
[22:43] [Togas] :eek!:
[22:43] [vondrack] no need for his :P's here
[22:43] [Nimitz] hahaha
[22:43] [History_Guy1] Quite
[22:43] [Togas]
[22:43] [ZargonX]
[22:44] [MasterZen] I'm sure he'll laugh when he gets to read this part of the chat.. :S
[22:44] [Togas] We did have a similiar meeting with Vox, GoW, and RP
[22:44] [ZargonX] ah, so this is not a first... alas
[22:44] [Togas] it was interesting, Trip had a lot of battle plans and suggestions that we really couldn't do. We were all caught unprepared by ND
[22:44] [Togas] we kept having to tell him that it just wasnt possible
[22:45] [Nimitz] maybe we should form a LoN
[22:45] [Sharpe] interesting that ND is now so small compared to the rest of the Bob civs ...
[22:45] [Togas] and Gow would go over his strategy with him, then realize that he was toast.
[22:45] [ZargonX] hey, I brought up a UN months ago...
[22:45] [MasterZen] yes, I supported it
[22:45] [ZargonX] it was met with lukewarm reception
[22:45] [History_Guy1] Sharpe, aye. It appears to be equal in size to all, I think.
[22:45] [ZargonX] MZ was with me!
[22:45] [MasterZen] it would have been a great idea
[22:45] [MasterZen] for moments like these
[22:45] [Nimitz] I think its time has come
[22:45] [ZargonX] exactly
[22:45] [Togas] perhaps this war will create it...
[22:46] [MasterZen] yep, perhaps
[22:46] [ZargonX] maybe I'll bring the idea up again...
[22:46] [Nimitz] yes do do
[22:46] [Kloreep] We could send chicken inspectors to GS.
[22:46] [Nimitz] lol
[22:46] [Togas] in the past, I was not keen on the idea, mostly because we had a Bob vs Estonia mentality at the time.
[22:47] [Togas] but with the balance of power shifting so much, it's an idea that, maybe, has arrived.
[22:47] [History_Guy1] Kloreep, there ain't nobody there but them chickens.
[22:47] [ZargonX] I'll dig up the old proposal and dust it off...
[22:47] [ZargonX] see what we can put together
[22:47] [Sharpe] Balance of Power? GS has been in 1st place for a while now...
[22:47] [Nimitz] as foriegn minister for legoland I'm for it
[22:48] [MasterZen] I'm all for it :P
[22:48] [ZargonX] hurrah!
[22:48] [ZargonX]
[22:48] [Nimitz] In fact I think the voted to join
[22:48] [Nimitz] the first time
[22:48] [ZargonX] brb
[22:49] [Togas] The Kingdom of Spain is very interested in the idea as well
[22:49] [History_Guy1] Aye, aye, I support that, Your Highness.
[22:50] [Nimitz] well it seems the world supports it this time
[22:50] [MasterZen] hell, we can start it withouth GS
[22:50] [Kloreep] We still don't know about ND and GS, but with a majority already behind it, I bet at least ND will jump on board.
[22:51] [vondrack] ok, chatlog posted, I am finally off to bed
[22:51] [Togas] ND has been more receptive as of late, and their new government might be all for it.
[22:51] [vondrack] bye, everybody!
[22:51] * vondrack has left #TigerTalks
[22:51] [History_Guy1] Let's hope ND is for it.
[22:51] [History_Guy1] Later Vondrack
[22:51] [Togas] I need to go see what Beta has written
[22:52] [Nimitz] yes me too
[22:52] [Panzer_32] hasn't written anything in the main forum yet
[22:53] [Sharpe] nothing in the forum
[22:53] [Togas] I'll keep an eye out.
[22:53] [Nimitz] well I'll read the log
[22:55] [MasterZen] guys I'm tired as hell, I'm going to take a little "siesta" and come back in a while
[22:55] [History_Guy1] Later, MZ.
[22:55] * MasterZen is now known as MZ|siesta
[22:57] * History_Guy1 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )

Last edited by Panzer32 on 13-06-2003 at 08:10

	13-06-2003 18:04									#141
	Increase Your PM Length

There is no way I am finding time for all that any time soon. can I get a cliff notes version?

	13-06-2003 18:32									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If there's not one when I get back this afternoon, I'll write one.

I don't have time currently.

	16-06-2003 15:45									#143
	Got spare money?

My Email to Beta

quote: Beta, I realise you are going to be bombarded with a lot of PM's & emails, but can we get an update on your plans. Obviously we dont want to have to sacrifice our mercs, but more importantly, what demands have you had to cave in to from GS. ...blah blah blah .. personal stuff & team monkey world domination talk ....

Beta's Response

quote: Hi H_E. Please pass this on to the rest of your team. Dear GoW. As you will see in the recent public post, Vox is left with little choice but to accept defeat and survive.We intend to do it with dignity. That being said, we thank you for your commitment and efforts in the conflict with GS. We consider you a good and trusted friend and hope this relationship will continue. We still have deals to conclude. It is in all our best interests if you now pull your peace keepers from North Estonia. There is little that can be accomplished. With any luck - they will not be noticed. Again - we thank you for honouring previous agreements to the extent possible. We hope to talk to you soon. Regards - Beta - of Vox.

	16-06-2003 15:54									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We need to find out what the final agreement between Vox and GS is.

	21-06-2003 04:01									#145
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Message I sent to Beta

quote: RE : A number of files from the Voxian archives have recently been de-classified. I will post an AAR from Vox's perspective shortly. Beta .. The GoW would appreciate an early preview. Especially if it mentions our roll as mercenaries. I think you will find that we wont object to anything...unless it currently contradicts anything we have told any of the other teams. In that case, we would appreciate the opportunity to request a change and/or request that is still be classified. But really...there is nothing that we would object to. Regs Hot_Enamel

Message I received from Beta

quote: H_E - sorry - I read this after I posted. But as you can see from my AAR, I have made no mention of any other civs - and left much information classified. I appreciate the sensitivities involved. I would however - like to do a debrief with you and a couple of others from GoW. I'm not sure what precipitated the recent internal events in your team - but I have a couple of guesses. From our perspective - we were very disappointed with GoW's support and position during the war. This may have largely been GF (no offense intended) , but in the end it was one of the things that cost us big time. In fact - it would appear that in the overall scheme of things GoW did more to help GS than you did us. As another Voxian put it - "GoW talks big and delivers little." Here are our issues: 1. the engineering deal we were forced into (35 gold) - pretty much at gun point - by GF was absolute highway robbery and not in keeping with the alliance being planned. Given our status at that time - and the need to maintain secrecy - we had no choice to accept. 2. paying GS for feudalism - as GS' AAR states, the cash was crucial to their early defence. It was also notable that both RP and Lego declined to deal with them as part of the cash embargo. Your opportunistic ways cost us big time. 3. then with-holding feudalism from us for 10 turns. Again - this would have helped our war effort considerably, and counter the cash infusion you had just given GS. And then we had to pay 75 gold for it - which in effect is like paying GS. 4. The landing of the horse-men without any prior discussion. To start with - it was a poor place to land - and easily accesible by GS war chariots. This forced us into moving down from the mountains in a gamble to cut some key roads, pressure some GS cities, but primarily to give them more targets than they could handle in the hope that your horsemen would survive. We recognized that an early defeat in this war would discourage GoW. As it is - it was serious defeat for both of us - and as GS has poinetd out - somewhat of a turning point in the war. 5. Your reluctance after that to get more actively involved - either militarily or even publicly acknowledge your position in the war.This may have caused GS to sue for peace earlier if they realized a number of nations were stacked against them. We do appreciate you assistance at the start of the war in maintaining the deception, and your willingness at the end to land troops which may have helped had the end-game gone differently. But for all the reasons mentioned above, Vox is not impressed. I thought it was important that you realize this. We recognize your postion as a mercenary and active trading nation. But there was clearly talk before the war of on-going alliances and friendship. The friendship is still there - as I have great relations with the folks on GoW. It is your commitment to the alliance, and to the war, that we question. Vox gave this war our all, and it has cost us. As GS has pointed out - it was a near-run thing. A little extra push here or there may have made the difference. And GS is now seriously a force to contend with. The war is now history - and Vox moves on. We look forward to our relations with GoW, but you may want to discuss some of those points in your team. Please feel free to post this in your forum. We all have learned something from recent events. ....Beta.

Message I sent to Beta

quote: Thanks Beta .. we appreciate your frank response. GF certainly had a unique method of negotiation. And it did contributed to the recent internal spat. However, as a team, we had to put forward a united front even though some felt we had gone the wrong way. As a team, it is important that this occurs. With GF gone, you may find us a different team. Perhaps this is an opportunity for a fresh start ? Much of your criticism is valid. Some of it is not. I will need to check the save game files, to accurately respond. Beta... I am the official ambassador to Vox. I will keep the communication open between us. I am sure our relations can be rebuilt to favorable conditions. I am a straight shooter, and will tell you everything as I see it. In one old email, you did make mention that GS had been trying to convince you that "GoW was just using Vox as puppets to cause trouble for GS". Please do not fall for that propaganda. GoW was 100% behind you for the entire war. I will repond to your individual comments soon. I appreciate that some of your concessions to GS are confidential, but we are interested in where you will be going, and how you will get there. Regards Hot_Enamel

Message I received from Beta

quote: HE - I agree that we can build solid relations. I too have no doubt of that. And to clarify - I never suspected you wre playing the puppet-master role - and I apologize if I inferred it. I think our frustration stemmed from being taken advantage of at the start, the feudalism deal, and then what we saw as an unwillingness to really commit to the war - especially once we realized what we were upagainst. So - as I said - lessons learned. And yes - frank conversations should get us past any 'history' and into the future. ---Beta.

	27-06-2003 19:32									#146
	Got spare money?

Message from Beta

quote: Greetings H_E. The folks at Vox were wondering if GoW would be willing to reconsider the deal for engineering which has been agreed to. You know my feellings that the deal was very one-sided, and was made when GF had us over a barrel in the days just before "Immortal Beloved" kicked off. Also - we are going to be in dire need of cash over the next while. Engineering is up in 10 turns. The deal was that we provide it fror 35 gold. I appreciate that there were other aspects to the deal at the time, including military support, and the risks internationally to GoW. However, we are asking if you would consider a restructuring of the deal to make it 70 gold for engineering. The additional 35 would greatly help Vox's transition to its new home. A deal is a deal, and we will not renege on the original agreement. But we do ask you to take the above points into consideration when reviewing our request. Thank you. On an un-related note - I tust you will not be offended by a number of Voxian galleys travelling along your north coast. They are travelling singly - and at least two turns (6 tiles apart IIRC). Two are on their way now. There will be two, and maybe three more over the next 10 turns or so. They are carrying one military unit and one civilian unit each - the leading edge of the Voxian diaspora - The Voxodus. Trust all is well with you and the others of GoW. Vox says Hi, and wishes you well. .....Beta ps - how are things on Bob? Any tensions brewing in the aftermath of the Estonian conflict? Or is all quiet?

My Resonse

quote: Hey Beta, Your last question first... Tensions are always high on Bob....but it has been so far reasonably quiet. GS have been more difficult than usual. (They have always been difficult)... Like Vox, they too have told us of their displeasure with our team. Vox complains we did too little. GS complains we did too much. Certainly, our reputation with them took a beating with our horsemen landing. Regarding the Engineering deal, many of our team agree that we got an excellent price. Unfortunately, we are also in not a position to renegotiate...nor, do I believe we would want to. GoW understands your frustration, and we are considering ways to return a good trade deal your way. A heavily discounted tech trade is most likely in the near future. But again .. although we would like send an extra 35g your way, so that we can repair some of the recent diplomatic damage, we are not in a position to do so. Even our very favourable cash trade of chivalry to GS is now in doubt. We have a very angry, powerful, neighbour. Beta, keep in touch, your galleys are welcome to pass our Northern shores. Please do not group then together as you would an invasion force. Also note, our galley has mapped most of the coast of Lego. If they are sending you to "Lego Minor" as GS put it, then be prepared for some average territory. We see desert & mountains so far. Anyway.. best wishes for your voyage. Regards

	27-06-2003 19:57									#147
	Increase Your PM Length

That's funny,

I thought we were getting it for 30 gold...


I could have sworn that was the deal when I was holding him down and GF was prying his sides with the point of a sword...

	27-06-2003 22:50									#148
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Good response

yes, we are currently scrapped for cash

	28-06-2003 09:02									#149
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His response

quote: H_E - greetings friend. Thanks for your response. As discussed earlier - I sincerely appreciate that we can discuss these matters frankly. It clears the way for the future, in my opinion. I respect your position on this, and appreciate the view that this be taken into consideration in a future deal. As to the powerful, angry neighbour, yes - I understand. I still say the basic alliance concept is sound - I just don't think Vox will be the one to lead the charge for quite some time. And I understand that some of that anger may be the result of your involvement in recent events. The galleys will stay separated. Thanks for the recommendation on the workers. And yes - that is the plan with our worker population. The civilians involved are settlers - who left Estonia while peace was still being debated - sort of as an insurance policy. And yes - we have a map of Legos Minor in detail. Not the greatest land - but don't knock it too much. It is our home. Take care - stay in touch ..... Beta.

We could probably gift them Chivalry.
They have no cash for it anyway, and they have no use for it.

We can do it after RP is finished.

	28-06-2003 18:43									#150
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Good idea.