18-03-2003 23:13									#181
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Re: timezone:, Shiber, unless Haifa and Holon are on different timezones, i guess that won't be a problem.
Actually- HotE lives in australia, so i guess this will be a problem, but like i use to say: If you really want something done, you don't let technicalities get in your way.

I really want someone to be there, besides me, since i'm not such an expert in matters of tech dealings, and i'm sure you all have better ideas about the trading options and the like...

Anyway, i'll keep you posted about it.

	18-03-2003 23:25									#182
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I don't quite follow. What does Holon have to do with this?
Anyway, I'll see what I can do after you decide on the time of the chat. I can't promise anything, but I'll try to make it even if it clashes with my schedule.

	18-03-2003 23:30									#183
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quote: probably won't be able to participate in a chat due to timezone differences...

I just thought that if it works for me, it would work for you as well, wrt the time, as i don't see me chatting and trying to mend relationships on 4 am...

	20-03-2003 23:19									#184
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To quote HotE's latest diplomail:

quote: Trust me when I say we value GS as a trading partner...we in fact value every team as a trading partner.

Great. "You're special, just like everybody else".

	20-03-2003 23:22									#185
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In regard to tension on Bob- unless GoW is just bluffing to get our sympathy, or playing very very cautiously- i bet they are in a pretty bad situation, and ND is literally waving the sword in their eyes, ND staring to the North towards their prime lands, and RP playing "neutral" and probably laughing all the way.


GoW seems to be quite afraid from anyone taking sides against them in the upcoming war- understandable- but Vox? well, they probably think we'll help them. Any tip from GoW on a Voxian landing force (maybe that's why Vox is preparing Immortals?) would be most appreciated of course, will that be enough to decide it's time to kick their (Vox's) butts?

What stand should we take in the upcoming war? GoW is having troubles with ND, and RP as well, but they are the only balancing factor left- with RP having plenty of land for themselves, if Gow is out of the game- both RP and ND will probably live in peace, turning focus outside the continent- ND could turn towards our close by continent, and RP to Lego's.
Do you think we should offer GoW aid, in the event of war?

	20-03-2003 23:34									#186
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Do you think we should offer GoW aid, in the event of war?

With ND? Yes, but what we could do is almost nothing.

If they filled us in as to what is going on, we could examine how we could help them diplomatically and in other ways.

	21-03-2003 03:01									#187
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If they have Iron- we could help with upgrade money, if the war comes late, when both have harbors, we can help with Iron.
But other than that- there's little we could do, except actively join the fighting, what would not be viable for us in the short-mid term.

	25-03-2003 00:00									#188
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GhengisFarb's latest PM is obviously very concerning.

I don't believe a word of it of course, it seems like a rather transparent attempt to get us to declare war on Vox.

We should probably contact Vox anyway, just in case.

It might also be worthwhile sending Ghengis a simple PM telling him that if Jon and Betahound told him we have a monopoly of all resources then there were lying.

	25-03-2003 00:23									#189
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet GhengisFarb's latest PM is obviously very concerning. I don't believe a word of it of course, it seems like a rather transparent attempt to get us to declare war on Vox. We should probably contact Vox anyway, just in case. It might also be worthwhile sending Ghengis a simple PM telling him that if Jon and Betahound told him we have a monopoly of all resources then there were lying.

Good points

Vox has one iron and some luxes (right?) Why would they need what we have? What we do have that they need is good land. Clearly GF gambled here and erred. One would think that the immortals would tip him off that they have iron, which is far more important for vox than horses.

Seems GoW is playing for the eventual Bobian war- If we take Vox out soon, then we would be quite the ally to whatever civ wins our favor. GoW is thinking, "we give them the tip now, then they will help us out later."

But nonetheless, I think we should eliminate Vox ASAP. Their latest misadventures could cost us.

	25-03-2003 01:56									#190
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I won't take GF's note too seriously myself- and even if this was true- fact is that we've discussed almost anything with anyone: alliance with Vox on Bob, a combined attack with GS on Vox, tech partnership with Lego- and keeping the other's advancement at bay.
Another sign of GoW ill manner of conducting diplomacy- a blunt note like this is not going to cause much damage to our relationship, but may give us some insight on those who sent it.

	25-03-2003 02:46									#191
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I wish we had one of those CIA profilers to give us a psychological of GF... It'd be an interesting job, I'd bet.

Some very good points made in here. I would add that it's possible (though far-fetched) that he sent this message hoping that we would reply, saying that Vox are lying, and detailing what luxes and resources they have to prove our point (which is the info GoW is really interested in). This seems like typical GF behavior to me.
I suggest not to mention in our reply exactly what resources Vox has, only that they are lying. Also, make our reply brief - we don't want to look like we're taking his note seriously.

	25-03-2003 02:58									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Also, make our reply brief - we don't want to look like we're taking his note seriously.

I agree.

	25-03-2003 03:12									#193
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GF's warning becomes even emptier as ND declares war on Vox. Unless this is some clever plan... but this is unlikely, since the Bobians don't excell in continental cooperation, to say the least.
Btw, I'm REALLY surprised that Vox decided to settle on Bob anyway. What were they thinking??
Btw 2, I hope they settled on the hill instead of on those plains. Otherwise "West Wittlich" is toast. With a city on a hill and some immortals and spearmen, they would have a fighting chance, at least until the second wave on ND troops arrives. However, I'm afraid that if I counted the turns correctly, they could not have settled on the hill on turn 79.

	25-03-2003 04:13									#194
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I hear the drumbeats...

	25-03-2003 04:51									#195
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GF's note is empty, but may serve us well. Between GoW giving us this 'info' (it may very well be a lie, but we trust GoW ), and the BOB reaction to Vox's 'invasion', we can probably declare war on Vox in the near future without any backlash from the other teams.

Vox is almost certainly dead now, and we should claim up to the bottleneck at least ASAP. It will take us about 10 turns to get some Warriors upgraded, we should have their free tech well before then.

We have HBR right? We can spend the 20 gold per WC to upgrade them now. We could probably take Dissidentville (giving them no warning by using fast troops) if we get a road in the proper place (doable, wasting a few worker turns for a city capture), but don't really want to trigger our GA just yet.

I think we should request that Vox move their Warrior on the E coast Mountain away, saying that we are planning to build our cities in the area soon. We offer to reciprocate by moving our Warrior near Dissidentville away so that they can free up their Warrior nearby for the coming war (hoping they take it somewhere else... anywhere else). Our northernmost Worker gets a road at least 2 tiles connected to the jungle clearing 6 of Dissidentville. This just needs to be done before our units are ready. May be enough time to build a road all the way there, but not sure.

6 of our Warriors in the S, other than the one on the Hill NW of Tempest, and the one on the NE coast head to Barracks to be upgraded (they can wait to time getting their with the Iron being connected). We should be able to swing it so we are in a Republic by the time our garrisons have to leave. Our Spear in EotS heads to the Mountain 9 from Arashi, the other Spear moving into Hurricane for Garrison duties and to maintain better movement by being on roads already.

The timing should be just about perfect for us. Vox gets enough time to move some more of their armies (if they have any, average to us with 2 spears, 2 Warriors, and 2 Immortals doesn't leave much room for them) to BOB to fight, we upgrade, Dissidentville grows to size 3 (I don't think they have the shields to get a Settler out yet), and then our 5 Horsemen (upgraded WC's we can have at that point) hit Dissidentville, with Swords (4 should do) moving in on roads, and our N Warrior cutting off Vox's Iron (won't everyone love us for this?).

Sorry for the length of the post...

	25-03-2003 05:00									#196
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I agree with the consencus here that GF's note was bull, he used similar tactics with regards to the luxian situation.
-
Now if we just could get paid to take out Vox
-

(strangely enough, some part of me is actually saidened by the fact, that Vox will be gone soon...,no, really, I mean it... )

	25-03-2003 05:55									#197
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Does the new war change the agreement we are seeking currently with Vox?

Personally, I think we should wack them ASAP.

And Aeson is correct, we wont take a diplo hit if we break this treaty and attack vox soon.

We need to take out Vox before the Bobian civs can. We mustn't allow them to gain a foot hold in our land.

Perhaps we should make a treaty with GoW or someone, exchanging their gains on our continent for a defensive alliance and gold.

	25-03-2003 07:16									#198
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nm, wrong thread.

Last edited by alva on 25-03-2003 at 07:41

	25-03-2003 12:28									#199
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I agree with the general opinion that Vox is doomed to destruction whether we declare war on them or not. For this reason, we should declare war. I'd rather have Vox's territory in GS hands than in the possession of ND, or especially GoW.

We're not ready just yet, of course, and would need a few turns to get ready. I don't think we'll have much time....

	25-03-2003 12:46									#200
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ND can't realistically cross the straights for some time. They may not have a coastal city yet, and if they do it is almost surely corrupt or on the W edge of BOB.

GoW by themselves would have a tough time taking out N Vox... remember they don't have Iron, and it's hilly up there. Also their coastal cities are pretty far away as well. Horses (landed from ships) vs Immortals in hills would be a slaughter in favor of Vox.

The unknown is RP, but they seem more like they'd let GoW and ND do the fighting.

If Vox does have 6 Immortals like Jon hinted at, they could hold out for quite some time on BOB. With Spear support, Horses aren't too scary for them, and if they just sit in their city they get first shots at any approaching Sword stacks. I wouldn't want to walk my Swords up to a city with 6 Immortals in it... likely to lose the whole stack.

	25-03-2003 13:19									#201
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet We're not ready just yet, of course, and would need a few turns to get ready. I don't think we'll have much time....

A few turns? We don't even have full garrisons yet. Let alone any kind of advantage in strength vs Vox.

	25-03-2003 14:10									#202
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That's the traditional British understatement in operation there.

	25-03-2003 14:25									#203
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War Chariots upgrade directly to knights, not to horsemen. We need to be prepared with workers and swordsmen/horsemen in case Vox manages to pillage the road when they see our troops coming.

If we go after Vox at all, I don't want to do it with anything short of overwhelming force. By the time we have the makings of overwhelming force (and I would regard additional vet warriors for upgrade to swordsmen as a key ingredient), we should know whether the Bobians are going to attack Vox in the near term.

	25-03-2003 16:58									#204
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Forgot about WC's.

Our first strike capability comes close enough to the Pyramids build that the upgrade to Horsemen would just be a waste anyways. We can have 2 Horsemen, 4 WC's, and up to 9 Swordsmen (likely want to only send 4 initially) in 14 turns, with the Pyramids finishing in 16. The 6 'fast units' almost certainly would be able to take Dissidentville. I would be very suprised if they have built another Spear there yet (they haven't had the city for 20 turns since Lux left, right?), and we haven't seen any troops moving S... so they very well may only have that one Spear.

Building the road and city as I did in the scenario will allow us to hide our troops until the turn of the attack. By that point it should be more obvious what constitutes overwhelming force... they may have most of their units trying to hold onto their BOB foothold. My initial reaction was just to try and figure out our earliest possible offensive, if Vox starts losing badlyand we need to rush to claim some land. RP could do it perhaps, can't see GoW beating us to the punch, certainly not ND.

	29-03-2003 17:15									#205
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We need some discussion on the ideas Hote raised on his last message:

1) One-sided (Ha Ha Ha!) Protection Pact against Vox- they can't be serious, we'll make war on our own terms.

2) Tech alliance with GoW? worth discussing IMO.

3) Loan shark- as the above. We can't commit on any given sum, but we can still discuss the interest and so forth.

4) Trading Iron- will require quite an investment from us (harbors, galley for finding a path), and we'll need some compensation- any ideas?

Please comment.

	29-03-2003 18:12									#206
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1) No thank you, however explore the options here. I am interested in getting a secret GoW pact, in which they pay us for protection against Vox (not ND). I wonder how much they'll give.

As to a common pact against Vox: maybe mention that we're not interested in a pact against Vox for the simple reason that in the event of a war, we do not want to avoid any other team to conquer a city on our continent. In fact, it may be even so that we will protect Vox from outside attacks when they are getting hammered by us, protection that would be diplomatically at first, but might turn militaristic real fast.

2) first of all, tell them that "alliance" might be too strongly put when it comes to our deal with Vox, even if it just concerns tech. I was sorry to see that term spilled in chat, but by downtoning it, everything could be solved again.
Further, tech deals with GoW certainly interest us, specifally if we could strike gold for tech, or tech for tech deals. We assume GoW's research potential is smaller then ours, legos, and RPs (because of the relative isolation fo those 3 civs), which means that GoW researching themselves might not be their best option, as they would always be last to discover something (there are only 3 possible tech paths at most times in the middle ages). Gold certainly is a good compensation for us.

3) Loans: yes we are still interested, also in the form of virtual loans: we give them tech, for which they don't pay a fixed price, but rather a downpayment for 20 or so turns. Ask about what they would see as good rates, and how much gold they would be wanting to loan from us, as a guideline of how much we'd save. Also tell them that these are of course depending on situation, and that all loans should be asked well in front, to avoid us spending our treasury on something else or planning to spend it next turn.

4) Indeed, mention the cost, but also mention that it will be possible, and we would be willing to be the suppliers for GoW.

DeepO

	29-03-2003 18:23									#207
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1) Actually, I think this is beautiful. We wish to go to war with Vox anyway, so we might as well get paid for it. If and when Vox decides to attack GoW, it'll be high time for us to attack them from the south, while most of their forces are on Bob, and if we can get GoW to pay us in exchange for a commitment to strike at Vox should they attack GoW, which is something we are going to do anyway, then why refuse?

2) According to Ixnay's maps, GoW has lots of rivers, which means a good research speed. So yes, #2 is worth considering.

3) Agreed. I suggest that we propose a low interest, since we want GoW to feel that we're being fair with them; the fact that they used the expression 'loan shark' would imply that they think they are going to be ripped off and are inclined against such a deal, and we want to change their minds.

4) True, some investment would be needed, but IMHO the profits would exceed the investments. Plus, we're going to have to build a harbor anyway, so we might as well be compensated for the investment.

	29-03-2003 18:29									#208
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2) it's not the commerce that is the problem, but GoW needs to save a lot more cash, and so can't put their slider to 100% tech like we have been doing. We still don't need the cash, so if we can just make a bit of money from tech deals, and get some gpt deals to pay with maintenance, they can't possibly surpass us.

3) No... ask them for a deal, before proposing something ourselves. Interest rates will depend on amount of money asked, and risk involved, no need to give them one idea now, and later on have to revoke it

DeepO

	29-03-2003 18:55									#209
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Regarding 2), I think we and Lego need to discuss a joint research and tech sales policy. Including GoW as a third partner could be useful, but might be dangerous if Riders sweep over Bob before ND and RP are ready to deal with them.

Regarding 1), I'd rather keep our options open if practical. And a lot depends on what happens in our negotiations with Lego. If Lego is interested in dragging Vox along to contribute what gold they can to help Lego's and our research, letting Vox live at least a while longer might remain profitable. (And we won't look nearly as scary to the Bobians if we don't own the whole of Estonia.) But if Lego wants us to accept being able to sell techs to Vox as something of roughly equal value with their being able to trade techs to someone else, Vox becomes a liability. In any case, I don't want to make any kind of commitment that could hurt our standing with Vox until we're sure we're better off taking them out.

Regarding 3), I think that's something that should be discussed in light of the situation that exists when the time comes. We may or may not be in a position where we feel like we have gold to spare.

Regarding 4), we might feel out GoW's luxury situation (and also RP's and ND's). If a harbor would let us do some major luxury trading, that would make it more worthwhile for us to make a harbor a high priority than if we do it solely to sell iron to GoW. I'm not quite sure what a fair price would be selling iron to GoW, but it's likely to be higher if we have to significantly accelerate building a harbor compared with what would make sense otherwise.

	29-03-2003 19:06									#210
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4): I was thinking on letting them pay half a harbor + galley as guarantee the deal will be possible, afterwards e.g. 1 lux for iron for 20 turns. What is iron going to be worth to GoW anyway?

3) true, but we can still ask what they were thinking about, it will create a friendlier image of us

Vox - Lego... it will become a problem. We should discuss this with lego, however we need to do it in a way that we don't give a lot of info.... not that easy

DeepO