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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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Part II
Theseus> Roleplay - RP's relocation is clearly mandatory. We need to negotiate the ability to return them to Spain at some point... perhaps no sooner than X turns?
Theseus> (Get ready for a barrage...)
Theseus> Lego / Vox - I'd like to see them involved as well. I've always envisioned this as a worldwide gangbang on ND.
Theseus> Territitory - I'd like to split Bob at the jungle.
Panzer32> so basically we would get the ND core
Theseus> Gold - You are mercs, and need to be paid. How much (wait for the sum total of terms before answering)?
Theseus> Techs - TBD
Theseus> Resources - We should guarantee to each other full access to one of each resource we together control.
Theseus> Military Coordination - If we can do a deal this is critically important.
Aggie> will there be a unified command
Theseus> Competion of Contract - In this case, we think it will be the destruction of ND, not just their removal from Bob.
[GoW]UnO> I'm personally very tired of removals.
Theseus> We have put some thought into this. 
MasterZen> what if Lego gifts them a city?
MasterZen> just silly suggestions btw, but plausible
Aggie> question"if rp accepts removal but remains at war with us, will you make them make peace for ww ending purposes
Theseus> We would like to involve Lego as well.
Cort> then you'll be able to get a foothold on lego, MZ 
Theseus> Yes, peace with RP... whatever this plan takes.
Theseus> BRB
Aggie> thats important
Cort> Yes, Aggie, we would insist upon that
MasterZen> i'd cry "exploit" if it didn't happen anyway
Aggie> excellent
Cort> We recognise we would have to keep RP in line ...
Aggie> well they be your pet, so you haver to clean up after them.
Cort> but they'd have to be offered a token themselves...
Cort> a feeling of security in return.
[GoW]UnO> We can play the prod, you play the carrot.
MasterZen> letting them live is a token in itself
Cort> Yeah, so we'd have to ask them to take down their banners howling at you guys,
Aggie> well actually i like those banner
Cort> lol
Cort> but they need to know that you don't want to eradicate them - as long as they're neutered.
MasterZen> and offshore
Aggie> well assure them that we don't
Cort> in a hypothetical future, GoW would have nothing to fear from tiny Spain,
Aggie> that is true
MasterZen> tiny Spain might get others to do their dirty work for them
MasterZen> tiny Spain has twisted minds
Cort> so MZ, do you personally want to remove them from the game?
MasterZen> as long as they remain not a threat, I guess I could live with it, I just happen to be a twisted mind myself so I know how other twisted minds think
Cort> Funny you should mention that..
Theseus> Uh, I have a little kitten jumping around (GS is used to this), so if I seemingly type anything weird...
Theseus> I think Rp can be persuaded.
Theseus> I think they can be given religious territory.
[GoW]UnO> I am going to need to get to bed soon. Theseus, I am sure will as well.
Theseus> I think all of us roleplaying with RP will play a part.
[GoW]UnO> Theseus, CortHouse, Let's see this all through.
Theseus> I'm gonna let UnO get it all out...[]''6666666666666666666666666666666666666666
Theseus> That was the kitty.
Theseus> 457=10.;.
Theseus> again
MasterZen> LOL!!!!!!
MRex> haha
[GoW]UnO> Now, GS is proposing that GoW retains the land above the Jungle, the land below is split between the other allies, correct?
Theseus> Yes
MasterZen> speaking of kitty, check this thread out: http://central.masterzen.net/index....t=0&#entry39158
[GoW]UnO> Now, the rest of that seems either common sense (coordinated military, sharing resources) or insignificant.
[GoW]UnO> So, this is the real heart of the matter.
Theseus> UnO: I think that's pretty good for you... certainly more than under the current circumstances.
[GoW]UnO> Am I correct in assuming this?
[GoW]UnO> Now, I will present where the difficulties will arise as far as GoW is considered.
Theseus> Yes. But there is more, not unimportant.
[GoW]UnO> such as?
Aggie> like the following Lego sw, rp sc, Gs se
[GoW]UnO> What more did I miss?
[GoW]UnO> RP returning?
[GoW]UnO> The rest of it is only what is neccessary to carry out the war from what I can see, having just went through everything you posted above.
Theseus> No, I am sorry, Uno is entirely correct. The hinges of evrything are that RP leaves Bob and GoW attacks ND.
Theseus> Everything else follows from there.
[GoW]UnO> Now, here is where we currently stand.
[GoW]UnO> Gathering Storm, in our eyes, has broken a NAP with us. I am well aware we disagree here, but this is our feeling on the issue.
[GoW]UnO> Roleplay has broken countless agreements.
[GoW]UnO> Neu Demogyptica, to this point, has not borken anything.
[GoW]UnO> That is not to say they are not a threat.
Theseus> I am past all of these things.
Theseus> Wow, that was a big statement.
[GoW]UnO> The way the game currently stands, Lego has a nice chunk of land, and a nice little vassal state courtesy of GS.
Theseus> I think we have all been learning what counts, and what does not, in this type of game.
[GoW]UnO> The way you are proposing it is that GS will have a nice chunk of land, a nice little vassal state courtesy of ourselves.
[GoW]UnO> Both of these two forces will also have a beachhead on Bob.
Theseus> Tell me what YOU want.
[GoW]UnO> GoW may indeed have the largest land at that point, but we all know land takes time to make productive at all.
[GoW]UnO> OPD in a PM stated something about needing to have techs 'flow from GoW to GS' as an "act of good faith".
[GoW]UnO> This is out of the question at this point in time.
** Octavian_X has joined #GoW_CoFA
[GoW]UnO> RP returning will be a difficult sale, frankly. I think that COULD be agreed to in the future, though.
Theseus> All 'deal points'. We obviously want to get to GP ASAP... we have been made aware that saltpeter is rare.
Theseus> This is going to come back to haunt me, personally, but I have been angling for RP's end-game stance to be sort of Tibetan.
[GoW]UnO> However, given how this game goes, nature has been for the teams to follow the easiest and most profitable path.
MasterZen> proving this game is a microcosm of real life
Theseus> No sh*t.
[GoW]UnO> At this point, that would seem to be, upon the removal of ND, for Lego/GS and their respective vassals to remove GoW (aka the EVIL BACKSTABBING mercenaries) from the game.
[GoW]UnO> We will need some guarantee of this not happening.
[GoW]UnO> At least not easily.
[GoW]UnO> And therefore see it only fair that a foothold of porportional size be also allocated to GoW on Stormia.
Theseus> Furthest thing from it... I'm not speaking for all of GS here, but I LOVE the idea of you guys being mercs.
Theseus> Uh... no foothold on Stormia... very different proposition.
Theseus> But we can provide a guarantee.
[GoW]UnO> Of what sort?
Theseus> Give me a sec to say this right...
[GoW]UnO> Keep in mind who you are talking to. Internal PBEMS have taught us to trust but one person. Ourselves.
Theseus> Responding to UnO's last comment: I am a trusting sort. Either I deal with straight-up people or not. The log covers the issue, for me.
[GoW]UnO> Look, I'm going to be frank and honest.
[GoW]UnO> You are offering us more land, I give you that.
Theseus> OOOH, there's a teaser... I was about to propose something, but will wait.
[GoW]UnO> You say 'better' land, but 'better' is all relative.
Theseus> I was going to propose something good.
MRex> so propose it
[GoW]UnO> We have been acting on the current contract to the best of our abilities. Changin now would be difficult.
Theseus> [Theseus likes negotiating with UnO... straight up stuff]
[GoW]UnO> [then why did it take two hours to get here?]
[GoW]UnO> Now, I have in our forum stated I don't think you guys are serious about this.
Theseus> Hand shaking.
Theseus> We are 100% serious.
[GoW]UnO> You contacted us nearly two weeks ago, and I sent several requests.
Theseus> My fault...RL./
[GoW]UnO> Yet, here you come to talk only when you are threatening our cities.
Theseus> Also my fault...
Theseus> Let me speak...
[GoW]UnO> You may very well take some cities as well, but you will find that we are not the kind to back down, and will go down swinging if it comes to that.
Theseus> UnO, I kindly ask a moment...
Theseus> 0 
[GoW]UnO> We have been bold, some would say rash in our plans, and there would be no real change if this continues the way it is.
[GoW]UnO> Sorry, go ahead.
Theseus> Whoa...
Theseus> OK, let me organize...
Theseus> Moment... Amy is on the4 line.
Theseus> (really)
** [GoW]UnO sets mode: +o Octavian_X
[GoW]UnO> Hello there Octavian. You scared me when I saw you enter.
[GoW]UnO> wasn't sure which team you were on.
Octavian_X> No one truly knows to whom I belong... 
Octavian_X> Seriously, I would hope you know that I'm a citizen of the Gathering Storm.
[GoW]UnO> I didn't have my members list in front of me. Wasn't sure.
Aggie> well i believe you, why would one so claim if they weren't
[GoW]UnO> Im horrid with names.
Octavian_X> That's ok. all you Apolytonians are just one person to me...
MasterZen> I'll remember that next time we chat
MasterZen> j/k
Aggie> actually we are one person, just one very disturbed person
Cort> lol
Octavian_X> Honestly, at this point, that wouldn't suprise me...
MasterZen> Aggie, UnO and Panzer are all my DLs
Theseus> Back.
[GoW]UnO> I feel like it most the time.
[GoW]UnO> Theseus, your floor.
Theseus> I want to get past some of the pst animosity,
Theseus> [Sorry, I have a 5 week
Theseus> kitty attacking everything in sight]
[GoW]UnO> We are looking to the future, I can assure you. I don't see what you possibly can offer as a guarantee right now, but we are willing to listen.
Theseus> Land.
Theseus> The current situation is not tenable for anyone but Lego.
[GoW]UnO> On Bob. With Lego and GS BOTH having footholds just begging for a mutual enemy and a 'build off'
[GoW]UnO> Or a war.
Theseus> Yes.
Theseus> Do you expect more from ND?
[GoW]UnO> And how does this guarantee anything but our destruction as you and Lego kill us off?
Theseus> We would be offering a locked alliance,
[GoW]UnO> ND would be sharing our nation.
Theseus> ??
[GoW]UnO> Should the two of us be all that remained, that is.
[GoW]UnO> So, you are not interested in only ND, but with Lego as well.
Theseus> BRB
Theseus> Three, and then one. Unless you think something else would be more fun?
[GoW]UnO> ?
Theseus> So no, we are not asking you to commit against Lego.
Theseus> Everyone, what we are proposing is simple.
Theseus> We will evacuate RP to N. Stormia.
MasterZen> in summary: kill ND until they die
Theseus> Master of Zen? Try Master of Understatement... 
[GoW]UnO> Trust for Trust. We are giving you a beachhead should we agree. One in return is not out of reason IMO, I fail to see what your hold up is, you are gifting much of it to RP anyway.
Theseus> Yes, we take down ND. Ideally (and this is just me) I'd like to do it as a worldwide gangbang... no reason, just cause.
Theseus> I am operating waaaaaay without charter here, UnO... beach head in N. Stormia acceptable?
[GoW]UnO> Is it at least negotiable?
Theseus> I am not sure I see the point... but yes.
[GoW]UnO> N stormia for S bob. Not equal SIZE but porportional. (stormia is smaller, so smaller beachhead)
Theseus> What complicated webs we weave...
[GoW]UnO> Point is naval invasion is damn near impossible, it provides SOME route should you not honor your 'locked alliance'
[GoW]UnO> Or whatever.
Theseus> We will honor such locked alliance... period. Did you you see my earlier point, btw? Locked and equal resources? I thought that a good idea.
[GoW]UnO> That is a good idea.
Theseus> There is a deal to be made here... logical, profitable, and fun.
Theseus> AAnd I gotta say... you brought up naval invasion... I cannot WAIT to try epic game Scandy. Seafaring rocks.
MasterZen> lucky those who have C3C already... :P
MRex> like me
[GoW]UnO> So, GS will discuss giving us a small beachhead in N stormia?
Panzer32> I'm playing Napoleonic Europe conquest... its great. I've got 4 armies that are killer.
Theseus> Yes. I am thinking of this as we go along, but if we do so you will be next to a very weak RP...we would would covenants that you not rape them.
[GoW]UnO> I know that will make some GoW members very much less pararnoid.
Theseus> Fine.
MasterZen> as long as RP doesn't pose a threat to us, we will not pose a threat to them
[GoW]UnO> Then, we have all this to discuss with our teams.
[GoW]UnO> RP off of Bob.
[GoW]UnO> GoW/GS attack ND, hope to include Lego.
[GoW]UnO> Once ND is destroyed, Land from Jungle North is GoW, south is Lego/GS
[GoW]UnO> RP is allowed to return eventually and GoW gets a beachhead.
Theseus> I would like to go futher... I see an alliance through at least a 3 team finale. Seriously, feel free to ask the Legos, I made a statement tonight that I would like to see GoW STRONGER>
Theseus> BRB
[GoW]UnO> I don't know if we can make that a deal for after the war, perhaps...
Theseus> We have at iming issue...
Theseus> timing
[GoW]UnO> Theseus, CourtHouse, Octavian, it is becomming late for me. I need to be off to bed, I suggest we continue this another time and take what is already here back to our teams.
Cort> yep - it's almost tijme for me to get up...
[GoW]UnO> Timing can be worked with the teams, and I am sure other issues will present themselves once this is digested.
[GoW]UnO> LOL, reminds me of doing the turnchats, cort.
Theseus> Agreed. Please note, much of which I have presented has already been discussed and approved wihtin GS. We are ready to deal.
[GoW]UnO> Wake up a 2AM to civ before work.
[GoW]UnO> I will be in touch tomorrow, Theseus, and we can schedule another chat then.
Theseus> Also, fyi, we have touched base with various members of Lego... if GS and GoW agree on this course of action, as far as we can tell they will join in.
[GoW]UnO> Gnight folks, looks like the Eagles won. btw.
Cort> Goodnight all ....
Theseus> GN
Aggie> goodnight
** Cort has left #GoW_CoFA
** [GoW]UnO has left #GoW_CoFA
MasterZen> goodnight
MasterZen> doh, too late
** Disconnected
Session Close: Mon Nov 10 00:12:19 2003
Last edited by vulture on 11-11-2003 at 14:53
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:26
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Don't know how it can be fixed, unless logged it to a file with mIRC. Anyway, here's some clarification, of what I had of the chat....
Session Start: Mon Nov 10 22:21:28 2003
Session Ident: #GoW_CoFA
(22:21:28) ((
(22:21:28) —› now talking in: (#GoW_CoFA)
(22:21:28) ((
(22:21:28) —› users: (8), Ops: (7/88%), Voiced: (0/0%), Regs: (1/13%)
(22:21:28) —› join synced in: (0.062) secs
(22:21:28) ((
(22:21:30) (@[GoW]UnO) RP returning will be a difficult sale, frankly. I think that COULD be agreed to in the future, though.
(22:21:50) (@Theseus) All 'deal points'. We obviously want to get to GP ASAP... we have been made aware that saltpeter is rare.
(22:23:01) (@Theseus) This is going to come back to haunt me, personally, but I have been angling for RP's end-game stance to be sort of Tibetan.
(22:23:04) (@[GoW]UnO) However, given how this game goes, nature has been for the teams to follow the easiest and most profitable path.
(22:23:36) (@MasterZen) proving this game is a microcosm of real life
(22:23:51) (@Theseus) No sh*t.
(22:24:01) (@[GoW]UnO) At this point, that would seem to be, upon the removal of ND, for Lego/GS and their respective vassals to remove GoW (aka the EVIL BACKSTABBING mercenaries) from the game.
(22:24:32) (@[GoW]UnO) We will need some guarantee of this not happening.
(22:24:36) (@[GoW]UnO) At least not easily.
(22:25:05) (@[GoW]UnO) And therefore see it only fair that a foothold of porportional size be also allocated to GoW on Stormia.
(22:25:10) (@Theseus) Furthest thing from it... I'm not speaking for all of GS here, but I LOVE the idea of you guys being mercs.
(22:25:48) (@Theseus) Uh... no foothold on Stormia... very different proposition.
(22:26:13) (@Theseus) But we can provide a guarantee.
(22:26:27) (@[GoW]UnO) Of what sort?
(22:26:47) (@Theseus) Give me a sec to say this right...
(22:27:27) (@[GoW]UnO) Keep in mind who you are talking to. Internal PBEMS have taught us to trust but one person. Ourselves.
(22:28:47) (@Theseus) Responding to UnO's last comment: I am a trusting sort. Either I deal with straight-up people or not. The log covers the issue, for me.
(22:29:56) (@[GoW]UnO) Look, I'm going to be frank and honest.
(22:30:22) (@[GoW]UnO) You are offering us more land, I give you that.
(22:30:30) (@Theseus) OOOH, there's a teaser... I was about to propose something, but will wait.
(22:30:43) (@[GoW]UnO) You say 'better' land, but 'better' is all relative.
(22:30:49) (@Theseus) I was going to propose something good.
(22:31:26) (@MRex) so propose it
(22:31:28) (@[GoW]UnO) We have been acting on the current contract to the best of our abilities. Changin now would be difficult.
(22:31:33) (@Theseus) [Theseus likes negotiating with UnO... straight up stuff]
(22:31:50) (@[GoW]UnO) [then why did it take two hours to get here?]
(22:32:07) (@[GoW]UnO) Now, I have in our forum stated I don't think you guys are serious about this.
(22:32:07) (@Theseus) Hand shaking.
(22:32:27) (@Theseus) We are 100% serious.
(22:32:31) (@[GoW]UnO) You contacted us nearly two weeks ago, and I sent several requests.
(22:32:42) (@Theseus) My fault...RL./
(22:32:42) (@[GoW]UnO) Yet, here you come to talk only when you are threatening our cities.
(22:33:07) (@Theseus) Also my fault...
(22:33:19) (@Theseus) Let me speak...
(22:33:25) (@[GoW]UnO) You may very well take some cities as well, but you will find that we are not the kind to back down, and will go down swinging if it comes to that.
(22:33:56) (@Theseus) UnO, I kindly ask a moment...
(22:34:19) (@Theseus) 0
(22:34:20) (@[GoW]UnO) We have been bold, some would say rash in our plans, and there would be no real change if this continues the way it is.
(22:34:30) (@[GoW]UnO) Sorry, go ahead.
(22:34:43) (@Theseus) Whoa...
(22:34:59) (@Theseus) OK, let me organize...
(22:35:35) (@Theseus) Moment... Amy is on the4 line.
(22:35:43) (@Theseus) (really)
(22:38:02) —› mode: ([GoW]UnO) sets (+o Octavian_X)
(22:38:18) (@[GoW]UnO) Hello there Octavian. You scared me when I saw you enter.
(22:38:29) (@[GoW]UnO) wasn't sure which team you were on.
(22:38:59) (@Octavian_X) No one truly knows to whom I belong...
(22:39:54) (@Octavian_X) Seriously, I would hope you know that I'm a citizen of the Gathering Storm.
(22:40:18) (@[GoW]UnO) I didn't have my members list in front of me. Wasn't sure.
(22:40:25) (@Aggie) well i believe you, why would one so claim if they weren't
(22:40:37) (@[GoW]UnO) Im horrid with names.
(22:40:53) (@Octavian_X) That's ok. all you Apolytonians are just one person to me...
(22:41:21) (@MasterZen) I'll remember that next time we chat
(22:41:25) (@MasterZen) j/k
(22:41:34) (@Aggie) actually we are one person, just one very disturbed person
(22:41:46) (@Cort) lol
(22:41:54) (@Octavian_X) Honestly, at this point, that wouldn't suprise me...
(22:42:10) (@MasterZen) Aggie, UnO and Panzer are all my DLs
(22:42:22) (@Theseus) Back.
(22:42:30) (@[GoW]UnO) I feel like it most the time.
(22:43:11) (@[GoW]UnO) Theseus, your floor.
(22:43:22) (@Theseus) I want to get past some of the pst animosity,
(22:44:16) (@Theseus) [Sorry, I have a 5 week
(22:44:40) (@Theseus) kitty attacking everything in sight]
(22:44:48) (@[GoW]UnO) We are looking to the future, I can assure you. I don't see what you possibly can offer as a guarantee right now, but we are willing to listen.
(22:44:58) (@Theseus) Land.
(22:45:21) (@Theseus) The current situation is not tenable for anyone but Lego.
(22:45:42) (@[GoW]UnO) On Bob. With Lego and GS BOTH having footholds just begging for a mutual enemy and a 'build off'
(22:45:55) (@[GoW]UnO) Or a war.
(22:46:07) (@Theseus) Yes.
(22:46:16) (@Theseus) Do you expect more from ND?
(22:46:41) (@[GoW]UnO) And how does this guarantee anything but our destruction as you and Lego kill us off?
(22:47:21) (@Theseus) We would be offering a locked alliance,
(22:47:23) (@[GoW]UnO) ND would be sharing our nation.
(22:47:32) (@Theseus) ??
(22:47:34) (@[GoW]UnO) Should the two of us be all that remained, that is.
(22:48:02) (@[GoW]UnO) So, you are not interested in only ND, but with Lego as well.
(22:48:28) (@Theseus) BRB
(22:49:23) (@Theseus) Three, and then one. Unless you think something else would be more fun?
(22:49:59) (@[GoW]UnO) ?
(22:50:00) (@Theseus) So no, we are not asking you to commit against Lego.
(22:50:21) (@Theseus) Everyone, what we are proposing is simple.
(22:50:44) (@Theseus) We will evacuate RP to N. Stormia.
(22:50:46) (@MasterZen) in summary: kill ND until they die
(22:51:27) (@Theseus) Master of Zen? Try Master of Understatement...
(22:52:39) (@[GoW]UnO) Trust for Trust. We are giving you a beachhead should we agree. One in return is not out of reason IMO, I fail to see what your hold up is, you are gifting much of it to RP anyway.
(22:52:52) (@Theseus) Yes, we take down ND. Ideally (and this is just me) I'd like to do it as a worldwide gangbang... no reason, just cause.
(22:54:00) (@Theseus) I am operating waaaaaay without charter here, UnO... beach head in N. Stormia acceptable?
(22:54:57) (@[GoW]UnO) Is it at least negotiable?
(22:55:36) (@Theseus) I am not sure I see the point... but yes.
(22:55:39) (@[GoW]UnO) N stormia for S bob. Not equal SIZE but porportional. (stormia is smaller, so smaller beachhead)
(22:56:10) (@Theseus) What complicated webs we weave...
(22:56:20) (@[GoW]UnO) Point is naval invasion is damn near impossible, it provides SOME route should you not honor your 'locked alliance'
(22:56:28) (@[GoW]UnO) Or whatever.
(22:57:36) (@Theseus) We will honor such locked alliance... period. Did you you see my earlier point, btw? Locked and equal resources? I thought that a good idea.
(22:57:59) (@[GoW]UnO) That is a good idea.
(22:58:24) (@Theseus) There is a deal to be made here... logical, profitable, and fun.
(23:00:02) (@Theseus) AAnd I gotta say... you brought up naval invasion... I cannot WAIT to try epic game Scandy. Seafaring rocks.
(23:01:18) (@MasterZen) lucky those who have C3C already... :P
(23:01:38) (@MRex) like me
(23:01:43) (@[GoW]UnO) So, GS will discuss giving us a small beachhead in N stormia?
(23:03:08) (@Panzer32) I'm playing Napoleonic Europe conquest... its great. I've got 4 armies that are killer.
(23:03:36) (@Theseus) Yes. I am thinking of this as we go along, but if we do so you will be next to a very weak RP...we would would covenants that you not rape them.
(23:03:53) (@[GoW]UnO) I know that will make some GoW members very much less pararnoid.
(23:04:02) (@Theseus) Fine.
(23:04:23) (@MasterZen) as long as RP doesn't pose a threat to us, we will not pose a threat to them
(23:04:31) (@[GoW]UnO) Then, we have all this to discuss with our teams.
(23:04:38) (@[GoW]UnO) RP off of Bob.
(23:04:57) (@[GoW]UnO) GoW/GS attack ND, hope to include Lego.
(23:05:30) (@[GoW]UnO) Once ND is destroyed, Land from Jungle North is GoW, south is Lego/GS
(23:05:56) (@[GoW]UnO) RP is allowed to return eventually and GoW gets a beachhead.
(23:06:04) (@Theseus) I would like to go futher... I see an alliance through at least a 3 team finale. Seriously, feel free to ask the Legos, I made a statement tonight that I would like to see GoW STRONGER>
(23:06:11) (@Theseus) BRB
(23:06:14) (@[GoW]UnO) I don't know if we can make that a deal for after the war, perhaps...
(23:07:56) (@Theseus) We have at iming issue...
(23:08:01) (@Theseus) timing
(23:08:45) (@[GoW]UnO) Theseus, CourtHouse, Octavian, it is becomming late for me. I need to be off to bed, I suggest we continue this another time and take what is already here back to our teams.
(23:09:01) (@Cort) yep - it's almost tijme for me to get up...
(23:09:13) (@[GoW]UnO) Timing can be worked with the teams, and I am sure other issues will present themselves once this is digested.
(23:10:05) (@[GoW]UnO) LOL, reminds me of doing the turnchats, cort.
(23:10:12) (@Theseus) Agreed. Please note, much of which I have presented has already been discussed and approved wihtin GS. We are ready to deal.
(23:10:16) (@[GoW]UnO) Wake up a 2AM to civ before work.
(23:11:11) (@[GoW]UnO) I will be in touch tomorrow, Theseus, and we can schedule another chat then.
(23:11:30) (@Theseus) Also, fyi, we have touched base with various members of Lego... if GS and GoW agree on this course of action, as far as we can tell they will join in.
(23:11:31) (@[GoW]UnO) Gnight folks, looks like the Eagles won. btw.
(23:11:46) (@Cort) Goodnight all ....
(23:11:50) (@Theseus) GN
(23:11:55) (@Aggie) goodnight
(23:11:56) —› part: (Cort) (Cort@82-35-54-44.cable.ubr03.camd.blueyonder.co.uk)
(23:12:03) —› part: ([GoW]UnO) (~unorthodo@ACC77083.ipt.aol.com)
(23:12:19) (@MasterZen) goodnight
(23:12:22) (@MasterZen) doh, too late
(23:12:41) —› quit: (Theseus) (~richard@pool-141-157-220-53.ny325.east.verizon.net) (Quit
(23:19:05) —› part: (Aggie) (aggie@adsl1a-243.ktc.com)
(23:32:48) —› quit: (Panzer32) (Panzer32@DU94.N213.ResNet.QueensU.CA) (Quit
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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From UnO, titled:
Many apologies, um , too long... part 1
I must apologize,
I meant to get back with you yesterday, but I got EXTREMELY sidetracked when I received a shipment of bones.
Yes, bones. I am a bit odd, and have taken to collecting them, in case you didn't notice that over at MZO. However, there were and are inherent difficulties to such a thing as I am discovering. That said, I spent most my free time cleaning and sorting my first shipment yesterday.
I was asked to forward this by a member who was unable to attend the chat:
Again, let me be quite frank and honest.
There are some on the team that harbor some hostility towards GS. I am sure that GS feels the same about us.
Compound that by the fact that this came across, intentional or not, as a threat more than a negotiation with troops sitting outside our cities. We have a history of dealing with teams that threaten us. Lux threatened us, Roleplay threatened us, and we had a way of dealing with them both. We also feel that, while costly, we could win a war to remove GS from off of Bob. Some may have even lost sight of the game due to that fact, frankly.
Now, the majority of the team still wishes to win this game, however. To do that, ND will have to be dealt with at some point. This is our best opportunity to do such a thing, but there are concerns that it only speeds us to a point where Lego/Vox and GS/RP are desiring to end the game against each other.
Currently, we like the proposal on many points. We would certainly prefer to be allowed to destroy Roleplay, but most are willing to concede on that point.
You know...what is sad is that if things had gone as I attempted before this war, we would be have either begun this already, or have been heading to lego by now.
How are things being received in GS? And, when is a good time for a second chat? Friday is out of the question for me. Tomorrow is POSSIBLE, but in general bad. Saturday is certainly my best day, personally. However, any evening both Master Zen and Panzer are usually available and willing to talk, so we can easily defer to your schedule.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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From UnO, titled:
Grumble,,, too long part 2
Asked to forward the following:
quote:
If this was my PBEM, I would send them something like this before the next chat.
Theseus, we appreciate your upfront attempt at the chat last night.
Unfortunately, our team still has some concerns and grievances that we need to discuss/settle.
1. GS broke our NAP. (We can agree to disagree on this matter)
2. GS backstabbed us. While we were negotiating a “gangbang” on Roleplay, the forces you were amassing to attack Roleplay was then used against us.
3. One of GS’s biggest beef with Vox, was that GS had to waste their entire GA on military to crush Vox. Because of GS’s interference in the Roleplay war, it has taken many more turns and a much bigger military buildup that we expected. Instead of a quick war against RP, the war has been drawn out, and we blame GS for GoW having to waste their GA on military
4. We find it very difficult to believe that your views are a correct reflection of the views from the rest of your team. Anybody can reread the Spite & Malice threads to get an indication of GS’s true perception of GoW. With so much hatred for our team, we find it difficult to believe that you are willing to simple bury the past and work together in the future.
5. Have a reread of Vels thread. He has made it quite clear that the game is no longer about winning, but more about honour and rebuilding RP to its former glory. Again, must we just take your word that this is no longer true ?
6. Even if you convince us that your current active membership has a different view of GoW, what guarantees do we have that your older membership will return with their old grudges against us ?
7. You dare demand that we gift you all of our tech to make a show of good faith ? From our perspective, it is NOT GoW who needs to show good faith.
8. All of your plans demand that RP remains within the game. GS hates us… but the attitude from RP is tenfold against GoW. We have plenty of PM’s which clearly states how much RP wants to hurt GoW. How can you expect us to leave team alive in this game, who will obviously conspire against us for the rest of the game. If you don’t believe us, read the sig on Bigfree’s next post in the ISDG.
9. GS has shown that they are willing to exploit some of the games mechanics. An example of such is the warping of units. But the most recent example is a credible threat we have received that if we don’t agree to certain terms from RP, that RP will get a city from GS, and maintain a perpetual war against GoW and cripple our economy. We have been told that GS will go along with this plan from RP and protect the last RP city on Estonia. Again, GoW finds this as an abuse of the game mechanics, and are in disbelief that GS would even consider it.
Please be aware this is only one member, not the team.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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From UnO, titled:
Sigh... too long part 3
Again, only one member, keep that in mind.
quote:
10. The odds are, that The Alamo & Yellowknife will fall to your knights. It is our belief, that ND and our reinforcements should take back The Alamo, and our core cities in the North will never be taken. So..you are yet to really threaten us. We don’t see any reason why yours and RP’s demands require so much concession from GoW. GS chose to butt in on our war. We gave you warning of it so that you would not interfere.
11. Theseus already admits, that GS cannot win the game from their current position; they need GoW help against ND and Bob land. GS admit they know that they got screwed on the resource allocation. So what incentive does GoW get for giving you what you need so that the most powerful nation in the world can get even more powerful.
So… given all of the above, you must understand why we feel slighted when it is demanded that.
1. We must show the sign of good faith and give you our techs
2. We must allow RP to live and possible return to their homeland.
3. We must allow you access to resources you are lacking
4. We must allow you land & a beachhead on Bob
5. We must allow Lego land & a beachhead on Bob.
6. We must take the biggest risk against a backstab against ND (Everyone else’s core cities are on a different continent and not bordering ND)
7. Lego has a voxian vassal, GS has a RP vassal, Gow has ??? a shared continent with the two most powerful nations in the game ?
We are mercs….we can be bought. But we will not bend over, and allow GS to screw us over yet again.
As a sign of good faith from GS…and allow us to fulfil or contract with ND, why doesn’t GS remove its forces back to Estonia.
Allow us to destroy RP.
Allow us to receive payment from ND, and the division of land.
We do have concerns that ND will backstab us. But if this occurs, we will allow you and Lego free access through our territory, while we meet ND head on. (A fight we believe we could win)
Once this is done, then we can talk about contracts & alliances.
And you must trust us on this… we fear other teams more than GS. We will be looking for a contract from you …such as we were attempting to do before the RP war.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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UnO, I am going to respond to your 3 PMs all at once. Rather than do the quote thingie or different colors, I am just going to start and end each of my responses with *s (elite* responses that the are! ).
Unfortunately, this makes for a very long missive…. Let me suggest that we not keep adding to each other’s posts in the future, and start to move towards a contract.
Also, please note that this very my own personal response, albeit vetted and edited by rest of active GS.
_________________________
[Reminder: * means from GS, otherwise from GoW]
I must apologize,
I meant to get back with you yesterday, but I got EXTREMELY sidetracked when I received a shipment of bones.
Yes, bones. I am a bit odd, and have taken to collecting them, in case you didn't notice that over at MZO. However, there were and are inherent difficulties to such a thing as I am discovering. That said, I spent most my free time cleaning and sorting my first shipment yesterday.
* Dragon bones, perhaps? J *
I was asked to forward this by a member who was unable to attend the chat:
Again, let me be quite frank and honest.
There are some on the team that harbor some hostility towards GS. I am sure that GS feels the same about us.
* Yes, I am very cognizant of this. Things have been quite heated at times, and have veered into the personal. I will be addressing this further below, but let me start with an intensely personal response. I believe in something I call ‘Apolyton Spirit’, which is why I’ve been hanging around this place for almost two years (and this is the only online community in which I participate (well, MZO too , but that’s kind of related)). And, for the Civ3 community here, I like to think that I’ve played a part in maintaining that Spirit… for those on GoW that only know me from DGs, I have been active in the General and Strat forums, especially in helping newer players, and I also founded Apolyton University, which is the most collaborative of such efforts as I am aware. Although I did not found GS, I was and have continued to be one of its biggest recruiters, including especially the many Strat forum posters. The PTWDG was supposed to be FUN, and a learning exercise for the ISDG… in certain ways, it strayed faaaar from Apolyton Spirit, which bums me out. I do not have any hostility towards ANYONE in the PTWDG, and am going forward trying to return the Spirit to the game.*
Compound that by the fact that this came across, intentional or not, as a threat more than a negotiation with troops sitting outside our cities. We have a history of dealing with teams that threaten us. Lux threatened us, Roleplay threatened us, and we had a way of dealing with them both. We also feel that, while costly, we could win a war to remove GS from off of Bob. Some may have even lost sight of the game due to that fact, frankly.
* Two points to address: 1) We felt that we needed both a carrot and a stick in this situation… that may offend, but given the expected resistance, emotional and otherwise, we felt (and feel) that we needed both, sorry. Also, we do need a Plan B!! 2) Yeah, you’re right, there’s no way we can successfully take on both ND and GoW… but neither of us is going to win following that path, rather ND or Lego will.*
Now, the majority of the team still wishes to win this game, however. To do that, ND will have to be dealt with at some point. This is our best opportunity to do such a thing, but there are concerns that it only speeds us to a point where Lego/Vox and GS/RP are desiring to end the game against each other.
* Um… I was sorta thinking GS/GoW/RP against Lego/Vox. Ya ready for this? I’m thinking of RP as a JOINT vassal. Yeah yeah, I’ll get to your relationship(s) later. (/me is going to get EVISCERATED by the RP players in the post-game review.)*
Currently, we like the proposal on many points. We would certainly prefer to be allowed to destroy Roleplay, but most are willing to concede on that point.
* As was said in the chat, we don’t even have a contract with them… meaning it’s really an emotional response on our part, or a point of honor. BUT… (keep reading).*
You know...what is sad is that if things had gone as I attempted before this war, we would be have either begun this already, or have been heading to lego by now.
* Never too late to get started!! When I broached this path to GS, I was met with disbelief… but now everyone is on board.*
How are things being received in GS? And, when is a good time for a second chat? Friday is out of the question for me. Tomorrow is POSSIBLE, but in general bad. Saturday is certainly my best day, personally. However, any evening both Master Zen and Panzer are usually available and willing to talk, so we can easily defer to your schedule.
* GS absolutely unequivocally without-any-question wants to do this deal. I am not so sure we will have time for another chat… we need to go to contract.*
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
If this was my PBEM, I would send them something like this before the next chat.
Theseus, we appreciate your upfront attempt at the chat last night.
Unfortunately, our team still has some concerns and grievances that we need to discuss/settle.
*Bring’em on!! J *
1. GS broke our NAP. (We can agree to disagree on this matter)
* Agree to disagree.*
2. GS backstabbed us. While we were negotiating a “gangbang” on Roleplay, the forces you were amassing to attack Roleplay was then used against us.
* I’m not gonna agree with ya there either. MORE importantly: it’s water under the bridge… we have grievances too, which I ain’t gonna touch.
3. One of GS’s biggest beef with Vox, was that GS had to waste their entire GA on military to crush Vox. Because of GS’s interference in the Roleplay war, it has taken many more turns and a much bigger military buildup that we expected. Instead of a quick war against RP, the war has been drawn out, and we blame GS for GoW having to waste their GA on military
* Sorry. But, as precedent, we didn’t let that beef get in the way of a cordial Voxodus, did we?*
4. We find it very difficult to believe that your views are a correct reflection of the views from the rest of your team. Anybody can reread the Spite & Malice threads to get an indication of GS’s true perception of GoW. With so much hatred for our team, we find it difficult to believe that you are willing to simple bury the past and work together in the future.
* I truly, truly, truly regret that period of the game and the community… but I also was/am fascinated by it: The degree to which some pretty smart people got wrapped up in an ON-LINE COMMUNITY GAME is simply amazing, especially ‘cause we are talking about Civ, and everything that means about the people involved (needs much more thought, on my behalf at least). Now that things have settled (slowed L ) down, I think that the people who are still around can separate the game from the relationships; the best direct analogy I make is watching the original SPDGers in action together in the ISDG… evidently there was some historical rancor, but now it’s like clockwork. In fact, when you think about it, this effort (GS & GoW) is the first attempt to really get past the early MPDG issues (cool!). So, yeah, we’re past it… Wait, I’m not done: There is no hatred for your team. Period.*
5. Have a reread of Vels thread. He has made it quite clear that the game is no longer about winning, but more about honour and rebuilding RP to its former glory. Again, must we just take your word that this is no longer true ?
* Ah, Vel. Um, yeah. J Vel is, Vel. Errrrr. What can I say? I love the guy, respect him tremendously, wish he were around more. But he is a bit like a dog with a bone… He had actually never really participated much in GS; I personally have called on him for help when GS was in trouble, and in each case he jumped in with two feet. In re the flame wars, he very creatively took a stance on honor, and went for it with gusto (fer chrissakes, several of us were “blessed” and given titles by Pope Calixtus of Spain!!). Let me re-interpret: We have a self-imposed moral commitment to RP, and will act within those bounds… but that is just one element in how we will play out this game.*
6. Even if you convince us that your current active membership has a different view of GoW, what guarantees do we have that your older membership will return with their old grudges against us ?
* One, I just don’t see it happening. Two, GS ‘culture’ is such that any commitments made by the team of NOW will be honored by the team of the FUTURE (now don’t get started on the NAP thing… I am making a different point in direct response to the above question J ).
7. You dare demand that we gift you all of our tech to make a show of good faith ? From our perspective, it is NOT GoW who needs to show good faith.
* I’m not sure where that came from… did we make such a demand? I think good faith in this regard works both ways, btw: What techs do we each have and want? How do we coordinate?*
8. All of your plans demand that RP remains within the game. GS hates us… but the attitude from RP is tenfold against GoW. We have plenty of PM’s which clearly states how much RP wants to hurt GoW. How can you expect us to leave team alive in this game, who will obviously conspire against us for the rest of the game. If you don’t believe us, read the sig on Bigfree’s next post in the ISDG.
* Again, we don’t hate you. OK, that was the easy one. Yes, dealing with RP will be tricky. Again, I’d like to hold out the analogy of the stick and the carrot: Stick) RP is done, yes? They live by virtue of our loyalty, and yet also at our sufferance. Carrot) We offer them a meaningfully way to play out the game (in my mind, Tibetans)… but, on their terms, that means that we (i.e., GoW and GS) will need to ‘feed their satisfaction’. THAT means roleplaying… are you guys ready to pay respect to the Pope? That is what must happen. We at GS are more than ready to broker a rapprochement between RP and GoW, FOR REAL, including the symbolic. Think of the benefits… you already see, I think, the opportunities that would come from a GoW/GS teaming… now add in the benefit of a third core and partner. TOUGH to contemplate, I know, but the best course of action for ALL of us.*
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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In terms of the team’s commitment, let me say that we are very consensus oriented, and I would never send all this to you without team approval. Somewhere above, you asked if GoW had to take my word that this is all true… when we have a contract ready, I will personally round up every GSer I can find, and either have them virtually sign the contract, or send you PMs, or whatever is needed to make sure you understand our commitment.
I… do not have the words that I want to speak. In history, I admire such as Caesar, and Truman, and Churchill, and Kennedy, and hope to deliver stirring words and thoughts such as they did.
NOW is out time to take control of this world!
The past? It is PAST.
In recent days, we have had delivered to us C3C… I haven’t played it yet, but the WW2 Pacific Conquest is evidently amazing… and stunning, as in everyone who has reported on it thus far has been stunned by the extent of action, units, etc., and jumping into the middle of a game that had not been played from 4000 BC.
Do you all understand my point?
THROW OFF THE FLAME WARS!! In this game, the PTWDG, we are where we are… can anyone credibly argue against a GoW/GS alliance in all due logic?
This thing that we do, the PTWDG, is one of the most amazing phenomenon in the Internet and gaming world… it pains me that it has suffered as it has, and that team participation has lessened as it has… but nonetheless, it is a harbinger of things to come.
When the time comes, I want my name attached to this. And further, I want me and mine to be seen GLORIOUSLY… this idea? GoW and GS together, out of nowhere?
Tremendous. 
Let’s do it… and then, in the final showdown, let the chips fall as they may.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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CivTheseus: You avoiding me?
Raguil79: hehehe, couldn't be avoiding ya if I just added you to my AIM list ;-)
CivTheseus:
Raguil79: I was at the dentist, just got back
CivTheseus: You ok?
Raguil79: yes, just a regular check up, everything in working condition
CivTheseus: I've been reading about Armies at 'poly (weekend catch-up).
CivTheseus: They are stunning.
CivTheseus: "So a 4xSipahi Army with max bonus is friggin' 16 attack??!! And moves 4 tiles?? And blitzes? And pillages?"
Raguil79: yes, though I still miss my military leader rushes
Raguil79: it's almost impossible as hell to rush an ancient wonder now on emperor and above
CivTheseus: I got a SGL in one of the Conquests.
Raguil79: I got one in the epic game (in the beta) but that was only in the very early industrial when I had finally gotten ahead in techs (this on demigod)
Raguil79: I used it for a scientific GA. Wasn't really that helpful actually. Fortunately I had done prebuilds for ToE and Hoovers
CivTheseus: Hmmm... come to think of it, this will prolly be the biggest determinants of difficulty level. At what level can you reliably be the first to research techs?
Raguil79: well, I only played three full games. Two on emperor and one on demigod. Demigod was pretty hectic. I only leveled with the AI after the early industrial
CivTheseus: I am going to start my first epic game after playing the PTWDG turn.
Raguil79: most of the game I spent waging war just to get techs for payment
Raguil79: then again, I wasn't playing that seriously. Rushed through it, beat it in 9 hours
CivTheseus: Yeah, I tried the first two Conquests on d-g... between the change in objectives, some of the new changes, and the diff level... got my ass kicked.
CivTheseus: Didn't you have to play more during the beta?
Raguil79: My main job was actually helping with the spanish translation files
CivTheseus: Ohhh.
Raguil79: I didn't really have much time to play the game. Started a bunch of games, but only finished three
Raguil79: Sid is outrageously difficult. AI to AI trade rate of 200!!!
CivTheseus: Yeah, I saw screenshots that Catt posted... and they start with 18 units!!
CivTheseus: (I think)
Raguil79: it's like fighting a tank with a toothpick
CivTheseus: Well, the RNG has to cut you a break then. ;-)
Raguil79: during the beta I only heard of one guy winning on Sid in an epic game, and that was (he admitted it himself) a map which favored him greatly
CivTheseus: Jesus, I happen to be looking at a chart of the diff levels... Sid also gets 24 free support.
Raguil79: lol... takes us mortals about 2000 years to make an army that size
CivTheseus: So, uh, about the PTWDG...
Raguil79: to be honest I've been a bit awol this week regarding the PTWDG, damn ISDG has got my hands full dealing with our feisty neighbors CFC
Raguil79: but go ahead anyway, I'm all ears
CivTheseus: Ah... I 've been following that too, although I don;t post all that much. You guys are doing a fabgulous job.
Raguil79: thanks
CivTheseus: Re PTWDG, we want to do a deal. It's the only way we see both of our teams having a shot at the win.
Raguil79: ok, did you convince RP for doing an RPodus(tm)?
CivTheseus: I'm of Russian decent...
CivTheseus: I am now banging my shoe on the conference room table.
CivTheseus: NOT RPodus!! lol
Raguil79: "We will bury you!"
CivTheseus: If GoW and GS come to agreement, yes, RP will be relocated to the projects, uh, I mean North Stormia.
Raguil79: LOL!
Raguil79: we're still a bit uneasy at them returning to Bob though, if that's part of the plan
Raguil79: people forgive, but they never forget. RP will never forget this, and if they get even one chance of trying to screw us later they most likely will. I know I would ;-)
CivTheseus: How about if there were a restriction that their territory could not touch GoW's?
Raguil79: maybe
Raguil79: btw, everything I say is "unofficial"
CivTheseus: Think about it... GS will do all the work of resettling... it'll be up to us what cities they get.
CivTheseus: Yes, unofficial... but I need to play the turn.
Raguil79: when do you think the resettling could take place?
Raguil79: because until that happens we are technically still at war and still allied to ND
CivTheseus: Do you mean by RP? Not until after ND was gone, certainly.
Raguil79: ah, I was referring to them going to tha projects
CivTheseus: OH, sorry.
CivTheseus: Next turn?
Raguil79: wow, that's pretty soon
Raguil79: I say this because frankly the team isn't entirely convinced yet, we're still debating it
CivTheseus: I'd like to suggest a one turn ceasefire between GS and GoW (not RP, btw).
Raguil79: I wish I could say "yes" but Aggie would have to respond to that one
CivTheseus: I know.
Raguil79: have you tried PMing him?
CivTheseus: No... dumb of me.
CivTheseus: UnO just logged on.
Raguil79: yes, I noticed
CivTheseus: I think he's going to try to set up an AIM chatroom.
Raguil79: ok
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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Start of #GoW_CoFA buffer: Fri Nov 14 17:28:58 2003
*** Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
[GoW]UnO> SirUlias: Look, GS has done an honorable job, they have
done more than neccessary already.
[GoW]UnO> SirUlias: NO ONE, and I do mean no one can say that GS
has not done their best and most honorable job in keeping RP
alive.
Theseus> Hey.
*** MZ[Food] sets mode: +k squid
MZ[Food]> there, everything is secure
[GoW]UnO> Ok, Theseus, continuing my line of thought.
[GoW]UnO> The thing is, we would like to be given the opportunity
to honorably finish our contract with ND.
[GoW]UnO> If ANYONE can understand that it is GS.
[GoW]UnO> You have told us that you don't have a CONTRACT to save
RP, but we DO have one for their removal and preferable
destruction.
MZ[Food]> I like the latter myself
[GoW]UnO> I'm sure you can see how this all feels like finding a
way out more than completing the contract.
Theseus> Correct. We would see you entirely completing the
contract... so I don;t see the problem.
Theseus> Let me be specific... RP would not set foot on Bob until
ND's demise.
[GoW]UnO> What I am asking, to put it more bluntly, is would GS
consider allowing us to finish it here, and not keep RP alive.
[GoW]UnO> I really don't see our team subjugating to the pope, nor
do I see us trusting them again.
[GoW]UnO> This also brings problems up with the cease fire you
propose.
Theseus> How so?
[GoW]UnO> It would look awfully strange to others if no action
took place, would it not?
[GoW]UnO> Secrecy is of the utmost importance.
[GoW]UnO> upmost.
Theseus> Nah, not for one turn... we'd fortify everything on hills
and mountains... if you wanted to ping us with Cats that'd
probably be OK, and would be reasonable.
Theseus> Thank god there are no C3C Armies involved.
[GoW]UnO> GS wouldn't have rushed a wonder, I can tell you that.
Theseus> And none of that "subjugate to the pope" crap will be
allowed. I think of their surviving status being a lot more like
Tibet than Vatican City.
Theseus> Some roleplay would be involved though.
[GoW]UnO> You are expecting me to control the posting and roleplay
habits of the like of Ghengis and HotEnamel?
Theseus> LOL
MZ[Food]> that'll be well near impossible
Theseus> Hey, we all do what we can. We can make provisions for
that. I'll bring Nathan back in.
Theseus> Boy was that part of the game painful.
[GoW]UnO> So, there is no way GS will consider Roleplay's
destruction?
MZ[Food]> c'mon have some fun fer christ sakes, game will be
played faster with one less team
Theseus> LOL
Theseus> I won't say no, but it's REALLY hard.
* [GoW]UnO is uncomfortable with the situation of small teams and
votes...
* MZ[Food] also
Theseus> Do you mean a UN vote?
MZ[Food]> yep
*** MZ[Food] is now known as MasterZen
[GoW]UnO> It's possible. You allowed Vox to live...you are saving
RP's ass...
Theseus> Vox vote for GS?? You gotta be kidding.
MasterZen> well, maybe that was part of the contract... 
[GoW]UnO> For all I know it was a requirement of the Voxodus.
Theseus> Nope... we shoulda thought of it, though.
Theseus> Damn.
Theseus> 'Cause we would have gotten it... double damn. 
MasterZen> you guys needed an evil scheming diplomat on your team.
There's spare material in GoW, next time maybe there'll be a
pre-season draft
Theseus> Given that, I don;t think the UN vote should be an issue.
[GoW]UnO> God that forum better not ever be made public 
MasterZen> what forum?
Theseus> Yeah, we are defintely not evil enough.
[GoW]UnO> GoW
MasterZen> lol
* MasterZen makes a mental note to delete all his GoW posts before
the game is over
Theseus> Re the death of RP: It's just really emotionally hard,
even for me.
[GoW]UnO> Yeah, too bad the search don't work on Private forums.
MasterZen> don't worry, Theseus, our glee will compensate your
saddness over RP's loss
Theseus> Thanks a bunch.
[GoW]UnO> Look at it from our side, we have SIGNED something, made
it EXTREMELY public...
MasterZen> Yeah, Togas even calls us "ND's *****es"
Theseus> Man, we're proposing to send them to the projects!!
They'll have maybe 4-5 crap cities in N. Stormia.
[GoW]UnO> And later be back on Bob.
Theseus> You beat the living hell out've them.
Theseus> And they'll have CRAP cities on Bob.
[GoW]UnO> Theseus, the Glory of WAR would like to off someone for
once...geez...
Theseus> I threw out an idea to MZ earlier... what if there were a
restriction that their territory on Bob could not touch GoW's?
[GoW]UnO> If we finally decide to allow them to live, that wont be
a problem. It's the allowing them to live thing.
Theseus> Uh, UnO... you can have the coup de grace on ND, OK?
Theseus> LOL
Theseus> How come it was OK for Lego to save Vox?
Theseus> They were absolute scumbags to us.
MasterZen> they made it funny
[GoW]UnO> That was between you and Lego, I personally made it VERY
public I preferred them to be destroyed.
MasterZen> RP was never funny
[GoW]UnO> I don't like the idea of vassals.
MasterZen> you funny = you get to survive. You boring =
dieieieieeeeee
[GoW]UnO> I wouldn't want to play out a game like that.
Theseus> Well they're a friggin' laughing stock now.
[GoW]UnO> My son is enjoying King Kong...it's rather funny.
Theseus> I don't see what good RP is going to be from a 'vassal'
perspective.
MasterZen> they'll find a way...
[GoW]UnO> Look, we're not in a position to sign the deal right
now, that is obvious.
Theseus> Correct.
MasterZen> there's always a way
Theseus> I'm gonna take a chance...
Theseus> I believe we can get this done... with or without RP.
[GoW]UnO> I meant today, MZ, let the hotheads time to settle
down...
[GoW]UnO> WITHOUT RP would definately be closer...
Theseus> I am unilaterally entering a cease fire for one turn so
we can get a deal done.
Theseus> All units in your territories are going to be fortified,
and no new ones will enter.
Theseus> You guys do whatever you gotta do. I suggested some Cat
pinging.
[GoW]UnO> I can say that we are not in a position to attack
anyway, but may bombard if only for appearances.
Theseus> I've gotta play the turn. Is it OK if we leave this open.
or start a new room specifically for GoW/GS discussions?
[GoW]UnO> Erm, what more needs discussing?
[GoW]UnO> unless you allow us to kill RP...
Theseus> Doing a deal.
Theseus> There's a lot of deal points to settle. Also, I'd like
to continue to address other GoW members' concerns if
necessary... inlcuding whoever wrote the long letter.
Theseus> And, I know that other GSers want to participate.
Theseus> And, maybe you can convince us to let RP die.
[GoW]UnO> Well, I'm afraid that this isn't the best time for me.
I was just here to see to the ceasefire, I am really sorry.
Theseus> If this is going to stay open, Cort Haus can't get in.
[GoW]UnO> I have my kids and can't concentrate/babysit at the same
time.
Theseus> UnO, I'm not saying we have to deal now... I know later
is better.
[GoW]UnO> I just saw your message, and you, and was trying to get
the emergency done.
Theseus> I'm just saying it might be helpful to keep a chatroom
open.
Theseus> And thanks for showing up by the way.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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Start of #GoW_CoFA buffer: Fri Nov 14 21:31:17 2003
*** Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
Cort> welcome back
Theseus> I got knocked off for some reason.
Aggie> welcome
Cort> brb - getting a drink
Aggie> i ahve a hypothetical question. Lets say we currently on
contrct to get RP off Bob. But I could get ND to allow RP to
stay(and my team, really really hard). Could you get RP to accept
a peacedeal that left them on the coast. This is unlikely, but
could provide a more direct route to the future we all want.
would you then withdraw from Bob or do all agreements require a
GS presence on BOB
Aggie> excuse the typos
Cort> We went into this war looking for a presence on Bob
Aggie> like I said ND would almost definitely not accept it and my
team would kill me for even thinking such blasphemy
Aggie> could it be a "colony presence" or must you have cities
Cort> I think we were looking at production as well as resources
Aggie> ok
Theseus> In the end, we are all vying for the ability to
economically compete with Lego.
Aggie> well thye got LUCKY with a continent of their own
Theseus> No sh*t.
Aggie> we had 4 on BOB
Aggie> and you had 2
Theseus> For a short while.
Theseus> Meant Bob.
Aggie> hehe, well i knew there was no way that would last
Aggie> wells i feel sorry for lux, they got as unlucky as Lego got
lucky
Cort> I think we liked the idea of us taking RP Cites while they
get some in Stormia, and if they're really good and helpful they
get to live and get some of Spain back in maybe 40 turns
Aggie> question" do you know where SP is located
Aggie> on Stormia and BOB
Aggie> i ahve that impression from earlier in this chat
Cort> Well my current guess is under those 4 ND Muskets by the
Alamo,
Aggie> ok
Cort> but all we really know is that we've been told we haven't
got any on Stormia
Aggie> really, who said such a thing and are you sure they tell
the truth.
Theseus> Which ws... surprising.
Theseus> ws
Theseus> was
Cort> Well it was suggested in our forum that it was a ruse to get
us running around like headless chickens - which it did in a way
Cort> so there were doubts
Theseus> HEY, don;t talk about chickens that way!
Aggie> hehe
Theseus> Cort is part of GS aristocracy, and never trained the
chickens.
Cort> And it was probably another reason why we were hoping for
Gunpowder asap
Aggie> i can understand that
Cort> THey've al been upgraded to Knights by the time they marcj
past my window!
Cort> march
Aggie> same here. I hear we raze our iders from the mud. But
they're all cleaned up by the time i see them
Aggie> i mean raise
Theseus> Like Orcs?
Aggie> apparently
Aggie> also that is another thing I noticed in C3C, resources are
much more limited
Theseus> So I hear... GOOD. There were too many before. Should
result in more KAIs, and tougher games overall.
Aggie> yes
Aggie> it is nice
Aggie> i has 1horse,2iron/1sp/1coal on my whole continet and it
was significant
Cort> Now you mention it, I wonder what the source for that story
was. Not Mr Blair's intelligence dossier, I hope. (excuse UK
satire)
Aggie> hehe
Cort> Damn, so my peceplay trading games are forked then.
Theseus> I think that ultimately the source of our being informed
that we had no SP was... Lego.
Cort> There's always some dopey AI that'll sell the coal, rubber,
iron etc I need for my puny empire to survive and win
Cort> This like playing Poker with someone who's seen your cards
Cort> Yeah, Lego
Aggie> yes it is. how much do you trust lego. I mean imagine we
make allaince against ND. Then we plan the atatck but suddenly
LEgo atatcks us or you from the rear. could be disasterous
Cort> Our rear has been a talking point of late
Cort> Do they have Nav?
Cort> Lego's internal politics make them unpredictable
Aggie> no idea
Cort> They have opportunists and builders amongst them - and
whoever holds sway at the time shapes the policy at the timne -
just my guess
Aggie> very possible
Cort> So we're not worried about them until Navigation - but
basically we have a cunning plam to defent the east
Cort> defend
Aggie> thats good to know
Cort> think we might actually be able to send on the save in a
minute. Someone get Theseus a stiff drink. I'd recomend a
Stolichnaya - it's what I'm drinking
Aggie> we're still at the stage where amphibois attacks are
difficult. Alcohol is our good friend. I can see an endorsement
deal" the official drink of the Poly PTWDG"
Theseus> LOL
Theseus> I just made myself a drink... new vodka I found called
Svedka.
Aggie> i've seen that. How is it and what type of drink
Cort> Nostravia! (sp)
Cort> I just need a smoked salmon blini to go with it
Theseus> And caviar!
Theseus> Aggie: It's good... I like the taste.
Aggie> thats what matters
Cort> Stolichnaya is to Vodka what Guinness is to beer
Aggie> in that case it must be good
Cort> What's Svedka like?
Theseus> It's got a little bit more taste than Absolut, less than
Stoli.
Cort> Sounds Ok then - I've got this Black label Stoli my gf
brought back from a visit to Tel Aviv - +1 attack strength
Theseus> lol
Aggie> though this conversation is intoxicating, I must go eat.
Still I might try ti be back online for the multiplayer game
unortho/uber et al were talking about. I've never actually play
mp over the net. later
Theseus> Ditto.
Cort> Food is for wimps. Panzer, you still there?
*** Aggie has left #gow_cofa
End of #GoW_CoFA buffer Fri Nov 14 21:31:17 2003
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:26
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Sent to Aggie split accross 4 PM's . Let's hope it all arrived.
quote:
We, the peoples of the Glory of War and the Gathering Storm, in recognizing the threat posed to both of our glorious nations by Neu Demogyptia, agree this nation must be removed from the face of the earth. Therefore, we agree to put our lives, fortunes, and honor to risk in our chance to eliminate this threat once and for all. We pledge to unleash the great power of our Riders and War Chickens for the sake of returning this world to peace!
ARTICLE I - Objective
1. The two nations of Gathering Storm and Glory of War, whose sovereign interests have until recently been opposed in a titanic struggle for balance of power on the continent of Bob, have come to recognize that the stalemate in the Second Bobian War can serve the interests of neither side.
2. The source of the clash of interests - GS's MPP defense of Spain and GoW's contract to remove the RP Civ from Spanish soil must be honourably resolved.
3. A realignment of the balance of power is understood by both sides to be their only realistic chance of victory, with the ultimate need of both sides being to have enough productive land and access to resources to be able to eventually compete with the power to the west, Lego, enjoying a large productive continent to itself, and unimpeded in its economic development thus-far by conflict.
4. The primary obstacle to the aspirations of both GoW and GS, however, is recognized to be the Bobian power of Neu Demogyptia. This contract between the nations of Glory of War and Gathering Storm defines the terms and conditions of the hiring of the mercenary nation of GoW by GS to join and co-ordinate forces in a military and economic alliance to remove Neu Demogyptia from the game.
ARTICLE II - Honouring existing contractual obligations
1. GS agrees to respect the existing contract between GoW and ND requiring that RP to be removed from the continent of Bob.
2. GoW respects the existing alliance contract between GS and RP including Mutual Protection Pact.
3. GS shall clarify to RP that their continued protection and alliance with GS is dependent on RP making and maintaining peace with GoW as required by GS.
4. RP and GoW will mutually end all hostile and destructive intent and actions against the respective parties.
ARTICLE III - Conclusion of hostilities between GoW and GS
1. All Roleplay cities on Bob to be transferred to GS.
2. GS transfers selected cities on N.Stormia to RP.
3. Peace offered and accepted between all parties.
ARTICLE IV - Payment for Contract
1. Delivering the removal of RP from Bob, and enabling GoW to fulfil their existing contract with ND is seen as part payment from GS to GoW against the GS contract with GoW to eliminate ND from the game.
2. An agreement on land rights to make GoW the dominant landowner on Bob upon eventual defeat of ND will be made.
3. Allied participation between GS and GoW to defeat ND, with GoW taking the lion's share of the territorial spoils - giving them a large contiguous portion of Bob as far south as the jungle - would be seen as a substantial balance of the payment.
4. Once GS have Gunpowder, GoW can select a technology they would like GS to research for them as part payment of the contract. On completion, GS will deliver that technology to GoW.
5. GS is also able, in the medium and long tem, to deliver a majority portion of the overall research effort to also constitute a portion of the net payment.
6. For the final part of the payment, GoW are to be awarded the honour and glory of inflicting the final blow to ND.
ARTICLE V - Non Aggression
1. Neither nation shall attack the other during the duration of the contract unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners.
2. Neither nation shall declare war on the other during the duration of the contract unless it is mutually agreed to by both partners.
ARTICLE VI - Technology
1. At the time of the signing of this treaty, GS lags behind GoW in tech, but as soon as they are level, they will be able to contribute strongly to a shared, co-ordinated research program.
2. GS has partially researched Invention, but will need the remainder of that technology and Gunpowder to (a) be aware of the location of Saltpeter deposits, (b) deliver Musketmen to the battlefield, and (c) start contributing to a joint research program.
ARTICLE VII - Optional Rider Upgrade Program
1. In recognition of the unique battlefield abilities of the famed GoW Rider Regiments, developed in combination with the military productive power of Leonardo's Workshop, GS considers that the contract may be more swiftly completed by diverting a portion of its own commercial output to their partners GoW for the purposes of upgrading Horsemen/Chariots to Riders. For the purposes of concluding the contract, it makes more sense for GS gold to be spent on upgrading a 3-move knight at half price than a 2-move knight at full price. GS would continue to produce its own Knights, though less than it could otherwise produce.
2. GS would like to offer GoW the opportunity to benefit from this scheme, in appreciation of the efficient military machine that the GoW Civ has constructed, and to the mutual benefit of both parties.
3. Under the program, the transfer of GS economic power into GoW military power would be a firm indication of the trust and honour placed in GoW by GS. By strengthening their partners relative to themselves, GS is offering GoW a fail-safe security guarantee against a hypothetical GS 'backstab'.
4. The level of gpt transfer would be determined by the economic conditions, capabilities, and logistics on the ground, and thus beyond the scope of this document. It might also vary from turn to turn as is pragmatic, rather than fixed-rate deals. A rule of thumb would be 'to significantly strengthen GoW's capacity to fulfil the contract without significantly leaving GS vulnerable to a balance of power deficit in relation to their partner'.
5. Should GoW wish to take up this option, they will be enjoying an additional payment to the already-comprehensive renumeration package offered by GS in Article IV, and will also gain a security guarantee from GS. In a reciprocal gesture which would both honourably provide GS with a security guarantee from GoW, and serve the mutual interests of the fulfilment of the contract, GoW would deliver to GS the technologies of Invention and Gunpowder, with the benefits to both parties that would bring as described in Article VI
6. GS intends to deploy the economic potential of the RP refugees in protected northern Stormia to contribute to the ongoing struggle against ND, by making GPT payments to GS. It is apparent that this source of income could make a valuable net contribution to the proposed Rider Upgrade Program, thus assisting the contractual partners GoW and GS to fulfill their mission. It would be hoped that if GoW choose to partake in this program they would see the value of RP's alliance to GS in their contribution to the mutual cause.
ARTICLE VIII - Luxuries
Both parties agree to share available luxuries with each other as far as is reasonably possible.
ARTICLE IX - Strategic Resources
1. Ideally, full access by both parties should be arranged to all necessary resources - preferably under full urban control, but through trade if necessary.
2. In case of insufficient access to enough of each resource, parties with sole access should co-operate with temporary trade arrangements to allow the other side to upgrade / initiate builds.
ARTICLE X - Wonders of the World
The partners shall inform each other of what Great Wonders of the world they are planning to construct.
ARTICLE XI - Status of the Spanish nation of Roleplay
1. In addition to Article II para 3 above, GS will clarify to RP that their full co-operation with the GoW-GS contract is required under the terms of the existing protection arrangements offered to RP by GS. This co-operation will require the Spanish refugees in N.Stormia to undertake solely economic development work in their new home, with surplus commercial output being made available to GS so that it may contribute to the cause of eliminating ND.
2. Under these demilitarized conditions, RP will constitute no threat to GoW, but will instead be a net contributor to the goal of the contract.
3. Should the Spanish people not accept the terms of their continued protection by GS, perhaps for religious reasons, and given that GS has already paid a substantial price in the cause of their protection - they may elect to dissolve themselves as a nation and exit the game, delivering all holdings to GS.
4. Should the Spanish people accept the terms, and loyally demonstrate a commitment to the requirements of GS and their partners GoW, and if substantial political realignment were to take place in that nation to banish their hostile intent towards GoW, they should be allowed to return to a restricted portion of southern Spain, into areas not sharing a boundary with the intended southern borders of GoW upon completion of the contract.
ARTICLE XII - Envisioned Map and border agreements
After completion of the contract:
1. All lands north of the Bobian jungle to be GoW's
2. Land south of the jungle to be allocated to GS and other possible GoW allies in the fight against ND, in accordance with Article XI para 4.
3. Exact status of border area - tbd
ARTICLE XIII - Completion of Contract
1. Completion of contract shall be deemed to have occurred upon the delivery of the final blow to ND to remove them from the game. The satisfaction of this act shall be granted to GoW in accordance with the terms of payment above, unless both parties agree that the timing of the final act is essential for the necessary elimination of ND on that turn.
2. Upon completion, a mandatory 20 turns of peace shall exist between both parties to this contract.
3. In recognition that GS is not GoW's only potential customer, GS would seek to be given an option, prior to and close to the completion of contract, for the re-hiring of GoW in a subsequent assignment.
ARTICLE XIV - Ratification
1. Once this treaty has been signed by the representatives of each partner, those representatives are responsible for taking the contract back to be ratified by the appropriate consitutional bodies in each nation of Gathering Storm and Glory of War.
2. Upon ratification by the consitutional bodies or Glory of War and Gathering Storm and notification of this ratification in each case is sent to the other nation, this contract will go into effect and the partners will be bound by its terms.
ARTICLE XV - Amendments
This treaty may be amended if representatives of the two partners mutually agree to an amended version of the treaty and such an amended treaty is then ratified using the guidelines found in Article XIV.
Therefore, we, the representatives of the Generals of the Glory of War and the Senate of the Gathering Storm, recognizing and agreeing to abide by the above articles, here place our names, pledging our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honour.
SIGNATURES
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11-11-2003 10:16
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