31-08-2003 04:36									#241
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My response:

Hi Vel. Anything to do with the re-strengthening of Vox we are interested in. If the deal is giving us back North Estonia for 100 gold - well - make it 80 and we have a deal. OK?

On a more serious note - our treaty with Lego leaves us a fair bit of autonomy. It was quite generous and noble of them - with obviously a bit of self-interest. Some tech trading and foreign affairs stuff. And we can't trade maps. But we are still an independent nation. And we are growing again - albeit slowly.

So - what do you have in mind? We noted with interest your public message to Vox and Lego, which Witt acknowledged. So, I guess the answer is yes - we are keen to hear what's up.

Beta ... of Vox.

	31-08-2003 13:36									#242
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Vel's proposal:

Beta

That sounds perfect! Sounds to me then, that you have all the autonomy needed to have this conversation.

Keep in mind that at this point, this is merely you and me talking. My teammates know sorta kinna what I'm about to propose to you, and broadly support the effort, which means that you and I can make tentative deals and if you're interested, I can get whatever you need to make it happen, pushed through the GS council.

As you are no doubt aware, there's a big, bloody war brewing on Bob....which means that Bob is ripe for the picking. An enterprising Civ with a standing army of Immortals could make some juicy acquisitions on Bob, especially if you had some help in financing some additional transport ships to get your army over yonder.

I note too, that there's a spiffy little Island near Bob (which I have taken to calling "Yonder Isle" with a city on it. Not exactly prime real estate, but its capture by Vox would facilitate two important goals:

First, it would give the Voxian army a difficult-to-get-to base of operations near Bob from which to springboard future incursions and expansion opportunities, and second, it would provide the seeds of growth for your nation.

What I propose is simple....take advantage of the chaos on Bob to grow your nation. ND and GoW are pouring their armies south toward us with all possible speed....which means their underbelly is exposed....an underbelly which would be easy to strike at from a base on Yonder Isle.

Some good city sites up that way, and GS would welcome your presence on Bob, fully acknowledging your right to be there, and supporting your forces in their war effort, both directly (by luring them away from your targets) and in-directly, by subsidizing construction of ships and training of troops to get you into the fight.

Add to that Lego's sworn protection of you and yours (which sorely blunts ND and GoW's options against you), and the opportunity this situation presents your nations becomes....strikingly clear...

Your thoughts?

-Chris

	02-09-2003 18:55									#243
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Our treaty with Lego prohibits us from declaring war without Lego's approval. Given that Lego wants GS to get bogged down in a costly war, I doubt they will give approval. We will not know until we ask.

Our standing army of Immortals is small. They will not last long. I think that island is mostly hills and mountains. The fighting will be tough. It is possible that island is lightly defended so we might be able to take it quick with the right forces. After that, I would expect GoW to redirect some of their forces against us. We would need to have some defensive force on Voxtavia and upgrade our spears to pikes.

	02-09-2003 20:10									#244
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Just my opinion, but we're not really ready for war against anyone, much less a team that has most likely been building for a war for a while and will also most likely be in their rider-triggered golden age unless they triggered it earlier with wonders.

And Harry brought up the good point that Lego will most likely veto any war effort.

I'm against a war right now. We need time to build forces, not get them involved in a costly war that won't really do us much good and could do us a lot of harm.

	02-09-2003 21:39									#245
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I full agree. But it would be interesting to see what they are proposing and what they will offer. I have forwarded this to vondrack of Lego, for their input. I expect to hear back shortly.

(sorry - should've posted this fact in the Lego thread.)

	02-09-2003 23:41									#246
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GoW has no wonders so they started thier GA with their riders attacking RP and GS. They are still early in their GA.

Using our production to produce units would also take production away from needed improvements.

Here is an evil thought. Would GoW be willing to sell those island cities? We get GS to send us a bunch of cash for rushing units. We send a force to the island and make some pics to send to GS. We buy the city from GoW and start a war with them so in the game it shows that we are at war. GS will see the city change hands, see that we are at war in the game, and with the pics we make of our landing they will conclude that we were successful in taking the city. We continue that for the second city. We give some of the cash from GS to GoW for the cities and keep the rest to rush improvements. This would require another Operation MacArthur type campaign to convince GS we are really at war with GoW.

	03-09-2003 00:55									#247
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Now there's an interesting thought. You have a devious mind Harry.

It would take a lot of cash on GS's part to get first us and then GoW to commit to something like that We'd have to convince GoW that is in their best interests to essentially gift us a city (I would think one would do, and then we could say we were beaten back trying to take the second one). The main problem would be that GoW is in their golden age so they might not want to give up a city just to pull a fast one on GS.

But it's definitely something worth pursuing if GoW accepts it.

	03-09-2003 02:11									#248
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I like it!

I can see the Voxian Minister of Information is about to come out of retirement.

In fact - given my history with GS, it might be best if someone else handles this.

The plan will need further thought.

	03-09-2003 09:11									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Now there's an interesting thought. You have a devious mind Harry.

Always try to find a way to make it look like they are getting what they want but allowing you to get more than they think they are giving.

quote: It would take a lot of cash on GS's part to get first us and then GoW to commit to something like that We'd have to convince GoW that is in their best interests to essentially gift us a city (I would think one would do, and then we could say we were beaten back trying to take the second one). The main problem would be that GoW is in their golden age so they might not want to give up a city just to pull a fast one on GS. But it's definitely something worth pursuing if GoW accepts it.

There would be a benefit to GoW to do the trade to keep us from doing it like GS wants us to. Those cities are small (size 2 and 3) with land much like ours so they are slow growers. GoW would not lose too much from the GA. If they do not go for the permanent trade we might be able to work out a temporary trade, something like we get the city for 10 turns or so and then GoW gets it back as if they counter attacked and we lost island.

The downside is this, once we contact GoW its either they agree or we don't do it. We will have tipped the plan so it will be harder for us to do it militarily if GS makes us a great offer.

	03-09-2003 17:41									#250
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hmm

so we are going to be the official devious Civ?

that will make our allies trust us less also...

Jon Miller

	03-09-2003 21:07									#251
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I always try to think of devious things, it doesn't mean I follow through on all of them. It depends on what the long term goals are. Risks -vs- rewards. In this case, we have a desire to see GS not win the game, so I am thinking of ways to further that goal.

	03-09-2003 21:35									#252
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH In this case, we have a desire to see GS not win the game, so I am thinking of ways to further that goal.

oh oh. Don't let this get out in public, ot the flame wars will start anew. First GoW, and then Vox.

Although I'm sure GS isn't that naive to think we don't want our land back. Which makes me think there may be an alterior motive to their request.

Anyway - got a long response from Lego - vondrack - on thsi matter. I have posted it in the Lego thread.

	04-09-2003 02:11									#253
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see for me

if we don't win the game, I don't care who does (well, I have a slight preference for Lego)

so I am not about screwing over GS, I want what is good for us (And for a lesser extant, Lego)

Jon Miller

	05-09-2003 06:30									#254
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to Vel - we should decide soon if we want to do this. If yes - a chat with GoW would be in order.

Hi Vel - we will get back to you shortly on this. To be honest - I sort of thought this would die an early death on the discussion table. But, it would appear our appetite for 'adventure' has not been exhausted, and this is still under very active discussion. The biggest concern is how to do this while 'respecting' our now close relationship with Lego and their neutrality in this matter. Talk to you soon ... Beta.

	05-09-2003 23:48									#255
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Sent to Vel:

quote: As Beta has mentioned to you the GS proposal for Vox to get involved in the war on Bob is being discussed with interest. I have, ah, volunteered to be the contact for the discussions on this proposal. For starters, we would like to find out what you have in mind. I am typically away on weekends from Friday evening through Sunday night. I check Apolyton and my e-mail regularly during the week. If you need to contact someone during the weekend I suggest you keep in touch with Beta.

	06-09-2003 01:12									#256
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Received from Vel. Note that he seems to have some personal interest in seeing Vox strengthened and involved in the game. Also note his (indirect) compliments on our diplomatic abilities.

quote: Greetings Harry, and it's good to be working with you! I'm glad my proposal has drawn some keen interest from your ranks! As to the particulars, they are simply these: * I have recently become very active with the GS team again, and have a keen interest in seeing Vox re-strengthened. I also have considerable sway with the GS team, and would like to find myself in a position to help Vox in whatever way I can, especially when those interests (strengthening Vox), run paralell to our own interests (against GoW and ND). Thus, it is, to my mind, a perfect match! * In that vein, I propose a Voxian invasion initially of the island I call "Yonder Isle" to establish a safe, difficult-to-get-to staging area for further incursions. To assist, we would be willing to subside fleet and unit construction in order to get you on a war footing and in the thick of the action quickly. * Further, GoW and ND are making all efforts to kick us off of Bob...understandably then, this means that they are pouring their forces southward as fast as they can get them there....which leaves the area near "Yonder Isle" something akin to the soft underbelly of those nations....with their attention fully focused on us, you would, in essence, be able to cherry pick cities on the mainland, and we would assist you by acknowledging your rightful claim TO those cities. * Assuming GS is victorious against the alliance of ND/GoW, the geo-political map of Bob will be totally redrawn, and I want Vox to be a permanant part OF that re-drawing. * Earlier, when you approach the Bobians about a permanent settlement on their lands, you asked for space to build five cities on Bob. This was refused. I would like to bring that proposal back to life, as it were, and offer it to you again....if we are victorious...if you assist us to BECOME victorious, I'd like to make good on that offer....a minimum of five cities on Bob (former holdings of ND/GoW), plus what you can take on your own. Of course, there is the matter of Lego, and I am quite sure you own diplomats are highly skilled in their dealings (truth be told, you ran rings around us diplomatically in our unfortunate war)....and I feel certain that you can either spin your involvement in a positive light to Lego, or simply act in your own self interest, and ask forgiveness later.... Your thoughts, good sir? -Chris -=Vel=-

My reply:

quote: Hi Vel. Nice to hear from you. Voxians are interested alright. The game is getting a bit dull slowing building our cities while there is a lot of exciting things happening in the world. Right now we are concentrating on infrastructure and, as you should know, we had to disband much of our military as part of the exodus agreement. Any production we direct towards building units is production that is taken away from building infrastructure. The benefit would come later if/when cities are conquered. What assistance would GS be offering to build up our military and doing an invasion? Once we attack the island GoW will probably redirect some of their force to deal with us (or at least be defensive to keep us from advancing further). This is probably what you want. In the least we will need to be prepared for a counter attack, in the most it will increase the units need to conquer additional cities. This will not be a short term thing. Is GS willing to commit to a long term strengthing of Vox and how much assistance are we talking about? I am getting ready to head out for the weekend so I will contact you on Monday. -- HarryH

	06-09-2003 03:17									#257
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And I received a similar message from Vel during that time. Here it is.

quote: Re: PM Box now receiving Greetings again, Beta! And may I say that I'm glad indeed that the Voxian spirit of adventure is alive and well! With regards to Lego...I certainly understand caution on that point, however, surely Lego's desire is to see their close ally grow strong, and thus, taking the opportunity to do so would no doubt, be a thing they would be in favor of, even if this particular execution OF that goal would surely raise some eyebrows (and if their goal is NOT to see Vox grow strong, then perhaps their motivations are not quite so noble after all? Not an accusation AT ALL....merely a thought....an observation from someone who has not the benefit of understanding all the finer points of your arrangement with them) I realize too, that you have no particular reason to trust me (given my team affiliation), but I would ask that I not be judged too harshly on the basis of the actions of my predecessors....I was not actively involved in diplomacy during that dark time, but am actively engaged now, and honestly, I think there is nothing you and I cannot accomplish together if we put our minds to it. As I understand your past dealings with the folk of Bob, you had requested space for five cities on Bob....that sounds more than reasonable to me, and if this notion interests you and yours, I can tentatively say that such a Voxian presence on Bob would not only be welcomed, but indeed, actively supported by GS, and while I cannot predict the future and therefore have no sure way to know if we will ultimately win this fight, I can tell you that should we carry the day, I think it would be an easy matter to arrange for GS assistance and/or gifting of a minimum of five former ND/GoW cities on Bob, PLUS whatever you can gain via your own efforts, and unless I miss my guess, that would go quite some distance toward the goal of rebuilding Vox.... Additionally, I am certain that I can get some funding flowing Vox's way to assist with the commissioning of a fleet and other war materials to assist you initially in your efforts. Keep me posted as your internal debates and discussions continue....I think you and I can work well together, and look forward to more!!! -Chris -=Vel=-

	06-09-2003 03:21									#258
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All I can think of is, is that scene from MacBeth - with the three witches around the pot stiriing things up - "Toil and boil, toil and trouble" or something like that.

	06-09-2003 03:26									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Beta All I can think of is, is that scene from MacBeth - with the three witches around the pot stiriing things up - "Toil and boil, toil and trouble" or something like that.

So are you talking about Vel or us? Vel's trying to get us on GS's side and we're trying to doublecross GS.

	06-09-2003 06:37									#260
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This is getting very interesting indeed.

	08-09-2003 20:13									#261
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Vel sent me this Friday when I left for the weekend.

quote: HarryH! You enjoy the weekend, brother, and I'll have this waiting for you in your PM inbox when you return! GS is EXTREMELY committed to the long-term goal of a re-strengthened Vox, just as we are committed to a re-strengthened Spain (we're giving ALL their cities back to them in the end, plus some). GS never wanted war with Vox in the first, and since that unfortunate time between us, I have been hoping that an opportunity would present itself to make things right between us.....the war on Bob is (or can be) that time. A time of rebuilding ties between our two peoples. As to exact commitments, those would, of course, have to come via official channels, but I can tell you that there is broad support for the following: * Gold to Vox to assist with rushing ships and troops in preparation * Indirect military support in terms of being the "bait" that lures their units away from your targets * Direct military assistance in terms of coordinated military strikes to make your job easier, sharing of intel on the disposition of enemy troops, and finally, when the dust settles on Bob (and assuming a GS victory), the gifting of cities to Vox for their assistance in this matter, and the public acknowledgement of Voxian land rights on Bob (and we can get Spain on that boat as well...and Lego would support it almost by default, meaning that the bulk of the world would stand behind your claims). For particulars, I would have to step aside and let the pros and the bean counters take a seat at the table, but would still actively participate in those more formalized discussions. All of these things, however...all of the abovementioned has wide, and near-unanimous support among GS, and I feel certain that if you are interested, we could provide the level of support you would need to get you into the fray quickly (ie - we could provide sufficient immediate aid to get you onto "Yonder Isle" with all speed). -Howzat for a beginning? -Chris

My reply:

quote: The your proposal is generating a lot of discussion and interest. The team will need particulars to discuss to compare with where we think we would be if we decline before we can agree to the plan so let's get to it.

One idea I have as a gesture of good will is that we see if GS wants to trade world maps. It will reveal our cities and terrain so GS knows what we would be capable of. GoW had some of our coast explored before and we traded that map before with GS. Our eastern, and I think southern, coastal cities should already be showing up for them just as the cities GoW and ND have been settling on Bob are showing up on our map. What they do not have is our interior, northern, or western cities. Due to our agreement with Lego we would have to get approval from them before trading. We could send them snapshots of our map so they can see we have nothing of Legoland to reveal other than what the other civs already know. This would also let us see the rest of GS that we have been wondering about for a long time. If GS is unwilling to trade world maps, maybe we can see if they, or anyone else, wants to buy ours for a little cash. If we do not explore the Lego coast they might let us be a map trader.

	08-09-2003 22:02									#262
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I am still not anti GS and am not sure that we should screw GS to help GoW (if it will help Lego than I am cool with it)

helping us shuold be the first priority, if we can screw both GoW and GS I would be for it

I did not feel like GoW helped us as much as they should have during our war and so do not want to support them really

of course, my ultimate interest would be for all sides of the bobian war to wear tyemselves out with no real gains, if we can get that done that would be best (or just support it)

who is weaker right now? maybe a little bit of support for thme would ballance things up

Jon miller

	08-09-2003 22:46									#263
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I'm not particularly anti-GS either since I post with many of their members in the strat forum. So I have a bit of history with them. I think the reason we were considering this was as much anti-RP sentiment as anything since GS threw their lot in with RP and no one else did. Of couse that was just my thought on the matter. Are there any other reasons why we're contemplating screwing around with GS?

	09-09-2003 00:00									#264
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My reasons for bringing up the idea of screwing GS:

• To help Lego win the game (assuming of course that we have no chance). GS is the biggest threat to Lego in the long run. If GS and RP get a significant portion of Bob then Lego will have a lot of problems winning the game.
  
• To see if we can get more out of it than going along with GS directly.
  

	09-09-2003 01:41									#265
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I am not for 'screwing' GS just for the sake of doing it. I agree with you Jon, in that we should try and see what maintains the balance of poere best. But Harry, IMO, has the right idea. Let's find out what w ecan about the deal, and then make the call.

With our full support - which will grow as we do - and with Gs destined to butt heads with ND/GoW for awhile, I think Lego's position is strengthened as it is. But - if GS makes a big military break-through - well, then it may be different.

Also - keep in mind here, and as vondrack pointed out, Lego looks like they are about to enter the war actively on the side of ND/GoW. Then our choices become 1)neutrality, 2) outright alignment with Lego/ND/GoW, or 3) Harry's devious Plan X.

	09-09-2003 10:03									#266
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Received this from Vel:

quote: Morning Harry! And yes, I worked with Beta a bit further over the weekend, and I belive we left off with me requesting a number from you guys....what would it take from GS to make this happen, cos we definitely want it to happen. You give me a number, I'll take it to the GS bean counters, and we'll come to some common ground! I have no doubt we can reach an agreement here! -Chris

My reply:

quote: Ok, I will get with the team to work out some plans and come up with some numbers. I will get back to you in a couple of days, or sooner if we have some questions. -- Albin

Beta, did you discuss anything over the weekend?

I will start a thread to discuss plans and costs so we can come up with some numbers.

	09-09-2003 16:28									#267
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Nope - that is far as it got.

	22-09-2003 12:12									#268
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So is anything more going on with this plan? Harry said he had some ideas for the "invasion", but I haven't seen any posts of what GS wants to do with this for a while.

	22-09-2003 16:35									#269
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I alos got that pm from Aggie of GoW. I will follow-up on both shortly.

	25-10-2003 01:38									#270
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Man - we are popular!

Just got this from Cort Haus of GS. Anyone know him?

Anyways - we will need to pick a position soon, or figure out how we dance down the middle.

PTWDG1
Hi Beta,

This is Cort Haus from Gathering Storm - pleased to meet you.

I understand there's some ND 'pelago terrain that you, erm aspire to. Am I right? If so, why don't you mosey on over and take it

We've got ND tied up in blowing their GA on a meatgrinder war that they can never win, so in the long term, it's yours

btw - we'd be interested in seeing an up-to-date map of Bob. Do you have one that you'd perhaps be interested in coming to an arangement over?

May your great leader continue to bless your glorious Civ.

Regards,

Cort Haus.