06-06-2003 21:56									#181
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I would rather give up trading rightds (they will boost our trade to further their position) and give up vassalship as part of the deal

( we will be vassals anyways as a small nation on the same content as a powerhouse, might as well make it so that we ahve to give up less territory while we are at it)

anyways, I don'/t like that idea at all

maybe we shuold have a vote

and ake sure that they know that there are seperate groups in Vox

with your offer we are gigving up more, with mine wie are giving up less but it soundsf like more

Jon Miller

	09-06-2003 04:19									#182
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Here is the response from GS. Jon - you had mentioned that you had chatted with them and told them that nothing was decided yet - that may have influenced their response somewhat. Not sure.

Here is the world situation as I know it now:

RP has one galley here - and will do a deal for iron. They are fully behind us - as much as they can be given the rising tensions on BoB.

GoW was set to send two galleys with troops - honoring their deal. I chatted with P32 and GF tonight regarding the situation. They are not in a position to send more significant numbers. They will be after a war on Bob. But who gainst whom is still unclear.

But - we can use the RP and GoW presence as leverage in negotiations with GS. GS will not know that more significant forces aren't coming. It may make them think twice.

So - what do folks want to do - and please - no one go chatting with anyone from GS until we are in agreement.

MSS' note:

GS and Vox Peace Negotiations
People of Vox:

We understand that your previous offer was pre-mature as you have not actually decided to offer it. Though promising, we did not discuss the offer in detail as it was not actually offered.

The people of Gathering Storm have a specific question to the people of Vox.

Are you willing to leave this continent for peace? We are putting together a proposal (which includes assistance from GS) but do not want to insult your honor by offering it without knowing it is welcome?

Answer in your own time.

Respectfully
ManicStarSeed of Gathering Storm

Last edited by Beta on 09-06-2003 at 05:02

	09-06-2003 04:58									#183
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Also from MSS:

Peace Negotiation Clause
I wanted to include this in my last PM, but forgot.... Consider it in effect until we agree otherwise....


Please understand while we discuss possible peace, that hostilities in the game will continue unless and until a formal deal is reached.


Mss

	09-06-2003 05:05									#184
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Guys - I am think that maybe having me as the prime contact with GS may not be helpful. I was instrumental in our devious actions just prior to the war. The public notices were from me.

It may help to facilitate peace if someone took over the negotiations. Make me look the bad guy if need be.

What do you think? But if we are going to do it - we do it soon.

I also think we throw in engineering - our free tech for the next era - and an public nap into the next era.

	09-06-2003 13:42									#185
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yah

that was what I was thinking

we need a clear voice with GS

Jon Miller

	09-06-2003 13:43									#186
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are we going to fight or have peace?

and have peace with the points you sent in email with?

and I am sure that it is because of me that they said they were not debating the fine points

Jon Miller

	09-06-2003 13:45									#187
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off the southern continent leaves us no iron, they could easily just finish us off later (if we were nto useful enough vassals)

I think that if we do make peace with them, it shuold be with the internal understanding that we try to set up there downfall, and that we always put Lego first in regards to who we are a vassal of

Jon Miller

	09-06-2003 16:54									#188
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Jon - agreed.

I think you should take over with GS. You cut the early deal with them on the border. You can be our voice of reason - The Voxian Dove.

I say contact them soon - with all the points mentioned so far:

- they get south Estonia
- we gift Dissidentville - I can do that this turn
- we do a public mea culpa - I will do that.
- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era. Jon - you should do that - as part of the good cop-bad cop thing.
- we will rpovide engineering in approx 15 turns.
-we provide our free tech going into the next era.
-we will not attack Inchon
-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia (Jon - you will need to convince them that they will be needed on the continent. We are back to trying to break up the 3 team alliance and claim land there.)
- this includes Harry and his gang trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. (they are all down to 1 and 2 HP's as it is). Also - they will need to move one worker to allow them to get by.
-and ask if they want to move Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.

Note that GS did offer peace back up this turn. I have the save - and will hold onto it for the full 24 hours so you can commence discussion.

I will send a quick note to MSS that I have been relieved of my duties as FAM to GS and that you will be in charge of the negotiations.

	09-06-2003 17:30									#189
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Some other thoughts for your negotaitions.

I will lay low in the public scene for awhile. Make it look like I have been relieved of most duties. Feel free to blame me and, say Diss and Witt, as the warmonger factions. Eli is on pretty good terms with Shiber - we should 'protect' him in this.

Also - make the point to GS that they are getting a big chunk of land - and free techs and a city. Also remind them that we did little or no damage to the GS infrastructure - other than their early GA and forcing them to switch production. But it did result in a second wonder for them - so I can't see how they can be too bent out of shape about this.

I still say it is the emotional issue over us catching them unawares, and blatantly breaking the original NAP. That is where the doves vs hawks discussion has got to occur. It was probably very useful now that you were not around much during the nasty times.

Anyways - good luck. For all of us.

	10-06-2003 02:14									#190
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ok

I am here

Jon Miller

	10-06-2003 16:26									#191
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I also think we should tell GS we forfeit any access to iron until the new era. Tell them we will not be getting involved in any Bobian war. We do not need iron. It should satisfy them that they we mean no harm.

ALSO - and this is key - I have found out from Lego that RP is asking an arm and a leg (Theology and Chivalry) in return for RP giving us Iron. On the basis that sending us iron will irritate GS.

I do not want this to cost Lego anymore than it has. So - let's lay quietly - do our exodus, and work on building.

Jon - can you relay this asap, and I will tell Lego not to give in to RP's exorbitant demands.

	10-06-2003 17:57									#192
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ok

Jon Miller

	10-06-2003 18:06									#193
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Shiber :

quote: What an insulting offer your friend Jon sent us.

quote: When will Vox realize that it has lost the war and must behave accordingly? When will Vox understand that by signing peace, we are giving up our chance of securing the continent to ourselves?

quote: My team doesn't support that proposition anymore. We think that we can defeat all of your forces shortly. In fact, we believe that we can do it much faster than you think.

	10-06-2003 20:04									#194
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Yowzer.

Looks like they are missing a few points. Yes - we recognize that we have lost the war.

And that it may not be in their best interest to get the entire continent. The rest of the world is wary of them as it is - imagine if they had the entire continent.

So - I propose Jon push on with the negotiations. Add the no iron clause.

And we go public with our offer - which I thought was fairly reasonable on our part. If you agree - I will start preparing a Vox public announcement. I will note the move of our immortals to the plains - and the fact that we did not assault Inchon last turn.

And - We start implementing the exodus plan.

And we set up a perimeter defense around north estonia and stack all pikemen and catapults into Elipolis.

And we make them fight for Dissidentville. And we raze it before they get it.

	10-06-2003 20:21									#195
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yes

Jon Miller

	11-06-2003 02:55									#196
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jon - any status to report on - or are they simply ignoring us.

	11-06-2003 03:07									#197
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I got a reply that an official reply should be given to me today

Jon Miller

	11-06-2003 21:24									#198
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Sorry about taking so long to get back to you. I hate to say it, but doves in the lands of Gathering Storm are an endangered species right now. The hawks outnumber them enormously. We are now within sight of total victory, and while we would like to get back into builder mode as quickly as possible, spending the rest of the game wondering when and how Vox might betray us again isn't worth it. The deception you used to set up your invasion was superb, but the price of such a well-executed deception is that it makes further trust next to impossible.

Vox's only real hope of survival, if you consider it worth taking, would be to evacuate this continent and find somewhere else to live (if a suitable place can be found). If you are interested in that, we could negotiate some time for you to do so and take enough with you that you can get going in your new location reasonably quickly. Otherwise, I don't see how a peace treaty would be possible.

Nathan

	11-06-2003 22:12									#199
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Ack - this makes my mistake mentioned in the moves column even more significant.

OK - another tact. GoW still owes us 4 units. Abd RP has a galley close by with two. We give ROP's to both of them - they land in North Estonia - and help cordon off any invasion force.

This may make GS think twice about the peace deal and taking on three civs. And if positioned correctly - they would have to declare war on RP and GOW. Now - I realize that both can probably wiggle out of it diplomatically, have a short war - and declare peace - so a lot will depend on how much GoW and RP will go along with a bluff of major support.

My public message will now state the peace deal we put on the table. This will make GS look like the agressors - even with past events.

I will contact RP and Gow immediately.

	12-06-2003 00:33									#200
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Wow! Lots to digest. Still reading.

	12-06-2003 03:00									#201
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They will make peace if we exodus

do we want to do that?

Jon Miller

	12-06-2003 05:06									#202
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What do they want for peace if we exodus? I don't want to give up everything (e.g., future free techs, etc.) if we exodus.

	12-06-2003 09:27									#203
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OK - I would not go for exodus right away.

I have a large chat planned for tomorrow night. Several reps from each of RP, Lego, and GoW. I could use some support if anyone is available. Time yet to be detrmined.

The basic plan is to see if GoW and Lego will land troops on Nother Estonia as a show of force - and if there is lots of sabre rattling from 3 other civs - GS may think twice about their aggressor role. The other civs do not want GS getting all the continent either. It is not good for them. So if we can offer a relatively 'cheap' way of making it look like it would be a one vs four war for GS - they may back down.

I have avoided posting the peace conditions in public until we have had this meeting - and see how GS reacts if the others are on side. We may need to give GS a face saving public way to back down.

We will see. Let me know if you can make it tomorrow night. Thanks.

	12-06-2003 17:32									#204
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Cease-fire and Evacuation
Just for your team's information, once Inchon and Inchoff were established, I don't think anything short of a miracle (or a very friendly RNG) could have made much difference in the prospects for peace. None of the GS discussion even hints that any suboptimal moves Vox might have made since then influenced our people's views.

Just as a rough outline, what would Vox think of disbanding the military units you aren't planning to take with you in your evacuation in exchange for a period of peace (say, a dozen or so turns) to focus your entire economy on the evacuation effort? That way you can evacuate without worrying about defense and we can get back to building sooner. And units disbanded in cities could even be used to help speed production of galleys and settlers. If the idea sounds okay in principle, we can work out the specifics.

Nathan

	12-06-2003 17:57									#205
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Looks good... It's not the optimal choice, but we dont have anything better.

quote: The basic plan is to see if GoW and Lego will land troops on Nother Estonia as a show of force - and if there is lots of sabre rattling from 3 other civs - GS may think twice about their aggressor role. The other civs do not want GS getting all the continent either. It is not good for them. So if we can offer a relatively 'cheap' way of making it look like it would be a one vs four war for GS - they may back down.

They wont. From my experience with the major players in GS, they wont back down.

They think they can easily capture Northern Estonia, and as soon as they do capture it any action by the 3 civs you mentioned will be futile. Knowing that they will win, they will never back down.

	12-06-2003 21:10									#206
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I'm not quite ready to head out with my tail between my legs.

GS has landed on North Estonia - which is bad - but not disastrous in hindsight.

We can takeout Inchon this turn or next, and then turn our forces to dealing with their intruders - with RP and GoW help. We then either rebuild Elipolis - it may be their first target - and I hope it is - and/ir reinforce it. We ring the perimeter with warriors to prevent landings - and pile all the defensive troops, Immortals, and catapults into Elipolis. This will still give us time to get settlers and galleys away .

GS reinforcements will take some time to get north - even by galley. And they still have to push past Dissidentville - which has a garrison of two pikemen and a spearman. We will destroy the roads leading north.

And - I still want to see what comes of the chat tonight. I agree that no one is going to risk their chances in the game to help us - but there is clearly enough angst out there directed at GS, and a clear understanding by all that if GS gets the entire continent - it will be trouble.

They will have to deal with them either now or later.

	13-06-2003 16:23									#207
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Received from Shiber via PM:

Apologize.
UNOFFICIAL
Unless you apologize publicly for your terrible lies, and unless you do it RIGHT NOW, you can bet that all previous understandings between Vox and GS will be cancelled, and you will not be allowed 12 turns to evacuate your population. We will also hunt down and sink your galleys. Vox Controli will be exterminated, and you will be the only one to blame for it.

	13-06-2003 17:34									#208
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Well, I can confirm that Shiber is pissed off, but this is too much.

	13-06-2003 18:34									#209
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I had a long and pointless phone talk with Shiber :

He and many other GSians are again deeply insulted by Beta's "twisting of the truth".
A lot of emotional bla bla.
They have lots of troops in Galleys on the way to Elipolis. He was very surprised when I told him all the defenders in Inchon but 1 are dead.

Basically he said he supports the evacuation agreement and that the turns number can be negotiated(I said that 12 is not enough), but that the latest public announcement pissed off many people in GS and they no longer care about anything and just want to destroy us. Supposedly they try to maintain very high honor standards and our "lies" and "disinformation" hurts them personally and influences the way people think about GS members out of the game. This is why they want a chat, to clean their name.

	14-06-2003 03:54									#210
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OK - I accept that we pulled a fast one on them in the original invasion. But what are they upset about now. I posted the truth about everything. I may have put a "oh, poor us! And GS is a bully!" slant on things. But the facts are straight.