15-06-2003 01:03									#211
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I think GS just wants Beta as a target for their anger and to use him as an escape goat in order to "clean up" their image with the other teams. Please. This is only a game and Beta was only doing what we as a whole asked him to do in the first place. GS really needs to get a life!

	15-06-2003 03:44									#212
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Witt !!! Thank-you! I agree wholeheartedly.

	22-06-2003 07:34									#213
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I was ready to play the turn - had liquidated a numebr of barracks - and got nervous. Sent this to nbarclay and his response.

RE: Peace Treaty

quote:


Hi Nathan. It has been awhile. Are there issues? Anything you need from us. Please advise. Thanks.. Beta. (somewhat nervous...)




Sorry we're taking so long. I posted your response pretty quickly when I got it, but there really hasn't been much said and I've been busy enough and/or tired enough that I haven't been pushing to coordinate an official response from us (nor has anyone else stepped up and tried to). I think it's pretty safe to consider no news as good news, since even the Stormhawk Party isn't actively lobbying against peace anymore. Our team's other discussions seem to assume that there will be peace and only the last little detail or two needs to be worked out.

Nathan

	22-06-2003 07:41									#214
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And will be sent once nbarclay's e-mail is not full.


-----------------------


OK, good to know. We are proceeding on the basis and intent of the agreement. We do need to come up with a plan to get the southern troops north. Especially the excess Immortals and warriors that need to be 'cashed' in. That is where gifting D'ville to you comes in. For now I am using the ferry shuttle on the east coast - but it is slow.

Trust all is well with you guys. Playing the turn now. ....Beta

	27-06-2003 18:54									#215
	Put an end to popups!

Thought it would be in good faith to confirm the details to Nathan. You may have already done so, Eli.

Hi nathan. One thing we have yet to discuss or confirm is the Voxian city inventory. Here are the details.

The Voice - palace, temple, granary, barracks
Miller Town - temple, barracks
Wittlich City - harbor, barracks
Dissidentville - barracks
Beta-by-the-Sea - nil
Harry's Hideout - nil
Elipolis - er - that's yours now.

So as per the peace treaty, we have or will cash in our barracks and temples. The granary and harbor will be left untouched.

As the turn seems to have gotten hung up with GoW, obviously nothing new to report from a moves perspective. So - I have some time to go work on another limerick.

Cheers ...Beta.

	27-06-2003 19:13									#216
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

One other thought - as we continue to demosntrate our good faith, and our humility during our wrap-up and exodus, we should approach GS for some cash. Yes, some cash.

We can explain that we have dismantled as per the terms of the agreement, but we are still very short of cash. They would no doubt be reluctant to give a lump sum. But what if we approached them for 60 gold, payable as 3 gpt over 20 turns. Just to keep us into positive cash flow. They can think of it as a token payment towards engineering, or weekly allowance to a wayward son if it makes them feel better.

If there is agreement - I would say we should ask in about 3 turns or so. When their WC's have wandered around North Estonia and can confirm we are following the agreement, which implies falling gold for us, and rising per unit costs as settlers and workers are produced.

	28-06-2003 00:25									#217
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Sent to nbarclay as per Harry's revised plan in the evac thread. I aos floated the idea of an "allowance" or "reward" for leaving early.

Hi Nathan. We have been doing some planning on the wrap-up. And we have an alternate plan that would see us out of Estonia/Stormia considerably sooner. It would save anywhere from 6 to 10 turns off the 18 (now17) turn schedule.

Essentially, we will run all our cities down to pop 1 through builds - no pop rushing as agreed to.

Note - to do this we would need to pull all our southern units north this turn. This would be done by moving them all into D'ville and gifting it to you. We still need 5 turns of food growth to get to size 2 to build a worker, so it hardly seems worth the wait. Having the units in the north allows us to cash in the Immortals and warriors to speed up the worker and settler production in the north - and save us some upkeep costs to boot.

Ok - back up north - all the cities would be size one. We would gift Miller town to you. We need to do this as it has culture built up and will prevent the palace flip to the new capitol.

We then disband The Voice - which will result in a palace move to the size 2 city on Legos Minor.

We then move some of our units into one of the remaining cities - and gift it to you. Say two turns after that, the next group moves into a remaining city. And then the third group. We are trying to manage the per turn deficit we will be incurring, and keep a small base of cities for income. A gradual approach as oppoesed to a "big bang".

So - in exchange for leaving early, and gifting Dissidentville this turn- (i) you would lose The Voice and its granary, as required per the agreement. We suspect it is not where you want the city anyway. We would have preferred our capitol to be Miller Town.

and (ii) we are asking for some gold, if it is not too bold of us to do so. No lump sums - that would not make sense. But a very modest gpt allowance for 20 turns - to cover the period from when we start going into the red - (which is very soon) and our redevlopment on Legos Minor.

Can you let us know if you are on-side or if you have other ideas which may work and accomplish the same thing. (and as I write this - I am not sure why we don't do a plan where you take the cities in cascading fashion - including the Voice. We are brainstorming on this as we go, so if you have other ideas, please let us know.)

But if we did come up with a plan to get us out sooner, we would appreciate it if you consider helping with the funding as per ii) above. Thanks. Looking to hear from you.

...Beta.

	28-06-2003 21:14									#218
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To Nathan as an update on the turn:

Hello Nathan.

We have just played 230bc and sent it on.

Thanks for taking the catapults.

Even prior to hearing back from you, we have opted for the early abondonment of D'ville - some 5 or 6 turns ahead of schedule. We have moved all our southern units into the town. None are fortified.

We have offered and accepted a peace treaty, a RoP agreement, and Dissidentville. When you accept - all our units will be transported to The Voice.

We have cashed in some more units up north. There are only 3 military units left in the north. Two spearmen in Wittlich City (we need them for happiness control - but as the pop drops - they will move out.) One Immortal is on a hill next to W.C. All the other cities are open. The Voice has workers in it.

When the units are transported north - we will be moving quickly to cash in the remaining offensive units. If your WC's can make sure they do not block the two tile road movement to Miller Town from the Voice, it would be appreciated. (let's us move and disband units all in one move)

All other units will move to a spot outside the city and remain unfortfied until Voxodus day arrives.

We have one galley - with no passengers - coming up over North Estonia. It was the one trapped on the east coast when Elipolis was taken. It will not be embarking any units - but simply moving on its way.

Now - we expect we can wrap things up quite early. Well ahead of the 18 turn schedule. Which would be a plus to you, along with the D'ville early transfer.

So at the risk of being a pain in the butt - I bring up the question of a cash "allowance" to carry us over the next 20 turns. I know this must be extremely difficult for some on GS to stomach - but 2we are on a new path. We are being co-operative. And we are offering a large 10 or so turn benefit to you. Again - I appreciate that you could just move in and take what you wanted, but we are trying to make this work best for all.

Vox is keen on getting out as early as possible - although my seaside villa in Beta-by-the-Sea will be sorely missed (but you are not getting my favorite rattan chair - it is already packed and set to go.). And I expect some of the sentiment on the GS side is the earlier the better. So - the cash would really help it work from our end.

As to The Voice - I think there has to be a plan that keeps it in place for you. Maybe we should set a chat date and discuss logistics. We will make absolutely no moves to disband it until we have discussed it in full.

Regards - all the best - Beta.

	29-06-2003 22:20									#219
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GS is taking the full 24 hours to play this turn. I wonder what they are thinking about...

	29-06-2003 23:14									#221
	Got spare money?

Probably too busy playing the new AU course. It's interesting and not as masochistic as the last one.

	30-06-2003 06:21									#222
	Remove this text

Anyone know how to read this? On the surface it looks all sweet and wonderful - but I'm not sure. I'm glad we have two settlers in galleys. Maybe I should have put a settler and a worker in that last galley which left empty...

RE: 230bc update
I'm afraid we're going to have to wait until next turn to accept Dissidentville. The Stormhawks have managed to fan the fires of war into a morale boost that helps us in a battle I'm afraid we can never have peace from - the battle against unhappiness. We're afraid that if we sigh a peace treaty without adequate preparation, we'll have riots. I've boosted the luxury slider to compensate for the loss of the "negative war weariness" factor, and we should be able to accept Dissidentville in our next turn with no problem. Sorry about the delay.

Nathan

Please help with the response. Any suggestions?

	30-06-2003 09:01									#223
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I'm not sure I'd worry too much about it (too much ). It sounds to me like they are in a republic (though I haven't yet opened the save...thanks for sending it Beta). When another civ declares war on you when you're in republic or democracy the "negative war weariness" affect happens, boosting your happiness. I'm not sure of the timetable in which it lasts, but if you sign the peace treaty with the civ that attacked you then your "extra" happiness goes back down to normal levels. It sounds to me like that is what Nathan is talking about.

As to the response I'd suggest just accepting it as what it is, but remain personally wary just in case it is a ploy.

	30-06-2003 18:38									#224
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Thanks Rhoth. That was what I figured it was, but I could not recall how many turns war was delared - and what difference one turn would make. Maybe they have to re-jig some of their cities to prepare themselves.

	01-07-2003 09:27									#225
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, worse case scenerio - At least we have a settler on at least one of our galleys!

	01-07-2003 18:41									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Well, worse case scenerio - At least we have a settler on at least one of our galleys!

Two actually. And in a pinch I could get two more off in two turns.

But I think their happiness problem is genuine. However, no mention of compensation for us leaving early.

	03-07-2003 20:22									#227
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The happiness problem surprises me. It was over 20 turns ago that war was declared (our golden age ended a few turns ago). I don't think the happiness benefit lasts this long.

	03-07-2003 20:53									#228
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I believe it works like war weariness in reverse. It automatically jumps your happiness when attacked, but it takes awhile for that to wear away. I don't know all the particulars, and maybe they were just messing with us, but Dissidentville is theirs now anyway.

	03-07-2003 22:14									#229
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To nbarclay today. I will continue to bug them for the money.

Hello Nathan. How's things?

Enjoy Dissidentville. Be kind to the folks there. I am posting a People's History in SPIN shortly.

As to the turn - we cashed in more Immortals last turn. I have moved ALL units to the hill outside Wittlich City where you can view them. There are no units left in any of the cities. We are still on a fast track to exodus.

Any response on a monetary incentive to us clearing out quicker? Cash flow is getting poor.

Have a good one ... Beta.

	05-07-2003 01:53									#230
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And once again:

Hi Nathan.

We are getting down to the final stages of planning at our end. And we need two answers from GS.

First - The Voice. Do you want to capture it, or do you want us to abandon it?

The plan currently in the works would see us gift you Miller Town before something is done with The Voice. (Miller Town has culture built up, and will prevent a palace jump, AFAIK). The Voice is either captured or abandoned. The capitol jumps to Legos Minor.

On the next turn after that - we will move our units into one of the three remaining cities - and gift it to you. We would then gift the other two cities a few turns after that. We are thinking of minimizing the cash flow loss we are currently experiencing.

One of the issues here, is that if you take The Voice - you will have to declare war. Does this cause you problems. If we abandon the Voice - we can do this all through peaceful means. It is up to you.

Also - we will have to wait one turn to declare peace again.

And the second - any thoughts yet on our proposal of an early exodus in exchange for a nominal cash flow allowance to help us through the resettlement period. An early wind-up will require cashing in more military units than planned - hence our proposal. As we have yet to put a number on the table yet - how about we suggest 6 gpt for 20 turns. That is 120 gold in exchange for us clearing out some 8-10 turns earlier.

Please let us know. We have some 'disbanding' decisions to make next turn.

Many thanks ... Beta.

	05-07-2003 03:47									#231
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By my count - GS agreed to the treaty in 250BC. Now, 190BC is 3 turns later. Next turn will be 4. Theoretically that gives us 14 turns to play with and still meet the terms of our agreement. As long as we do not exceed the Vox population at time of signing - which I will need to verify. That is a long time - and supports Harry's approach to the jump - as we can maintain cities on Estonia for awhile. Let's wait and see what GS say.

Also - please note that I have re-constructed the Vox-GS peace treaty from the two threads which had pieces of it. It is in the Thread of everything - under Foreign Affairs, GS, Treaties.

	07-07-2003 04:11									#232
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nye conatcted me this morning and asked foir the pm's I had sent nbarclay. Here is the response. Looks like we may have toi come up with a plan where they take the Voice.

And no world map trading. That is prohibited by the deal with Lego. And if we do get 120 gold, I suggest no loan. Yes - we lost the war, and yes they were magnanimous regarding the treaty, but they are getting our cities 8-10 turns early. That has got to be worth something.

Anyways - here is the reply:

RE: Re: Exodus
Hi again

Unfortunately, a chat for me this evening will be difficult. I may be able to squeeze in tonight around 8.30 my time (Mountain). If you are back on this afternoon, let me know.

Just so you know. The 120 gold idea is meeting some success. We may want to make it a loan though, or perhaps a trade for WM after your move or something.

re the Voice. I'm not positive, but I think we would like to capture it. I will let you know soonest we have a final decision.

Could you tell me when you are expecting Engineering?

nye

	08-07-2003 15:51									#233
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nye and I had a good chat last night - and after some back and forth, hammered out the following. The transfer will take place 4 and 5 turns from now. Which is what we planned.

And we got 60 gold - lump sum on the move. And no world map trade.

Here is the pertinent part of the chat:

5 Points
.notyoueither. 1. Vox 126. vox gifts all cities on Stormia (Estonia) to GS, save the Voice, as well as Engineering. Accepted.
.notyoueither. 2. GS 127. GS accepts cities and tech. Declares war. occupies The Voice. GS offers peace and Miller Town back, accepted.
.notyoueither. 3. Vox 127. Accepts peace and Miller Town. Moves all forces into Miller Town. Offers Miller Town, unnaccepted.
.notyoueither. 4. GS 127. GS offers 60 gold and accepts.
.notyoueither. 5. Vox accepts 60 gold for Miller Town and all forces *blip* to their new capital. The peace is final.
.Beta. Its a wrap.
.notyoueither. unless you want your troops gone one turn sooner, in which case offer miller town accepted
.notyoueither. up to you
.Beta. If that works - we will do it.
.notyoueither. it would.
__________________

	10-07-2003 03:12									#234
	Got spare money?

Harry's 7 point plan proposed to GS?

Re: 5 Points
Alternate proposal - 7 Points - By HarryH.

Hi nye - Harry has come up with an alternate proposal and his logic is explained at the end. Would this be acceptable?

quote:
I propose this:

1. Vox 126. Vox gifts Miller Town and Engineering to GS, accepted. Vox moves all units adjacent to Harry's Hideout.

2. GS 127. GS accepts Miller Town and tech. Declares war. Occupies The Voice. (Voxian capital moves to new city on Legos Minor.) GS offers peace and the gold received from the Vox treasury when Voice was conquered, accepted.

3. Vox 127. Accepts peace. Moves all units next to HH into the city. Vox gifts HH to GS, accepted.

4. GS 128. GS accepts HH. (All Vox units in HH jump to new capital).

5. Vox 130. Vox trades Beta-by-the-Sea and Wittlich City to GS, unaccepted.

6. GS 131. GS adds 60 gold to the trade and accepts.

7. Vox 131. Vox accepts trade. The peace is final.

In the GS 5 point plan plan we have only the city on Legos Minor at the start of each turn from 127 to 131 for a total of 5 city-turns. With my plan we start 127 with 4 cities and the other turns with 3 for a total of 16 city-turns. That is a difference of 44 gold just in unit maintenance costs (plus commerce, wealth, and tax collectors). GS still gets the Voice (with its granary and food tiles) and Miller Town just as quickly. With HH they will have a road network from Elipolis to Voice. Our units arrive in Lego Minor on the same turn in both plans. If necessary, we can move steps 5-7 up a turn.


Let me know. Thanks! Beta.


quote:

notyoueither wrote on 07-07-2003 22:32:
1. Vox 126. vox gifts all cities on Stormia (Estonia) to GS, save the Voice, as well as Engineering. Accepted.
2. GS 127. GS accepts cities and tech. Declares war. occupies The Voice. GS offers peace and Miller Town back, accepted.
3. Vox 127. Accepts peace and Miller Town. Moves all forces into Miller Town. Offers Miller Town, unnaccepted.
4. GS 127. GS offers 60 gold and accepts.
5. Vox accepts 60 gold for Miller Town and all forces *blip* to their new capital. The peace is final.
Its a wrap.
unless you want your troops gone one turn sooner, in which case offer miller town accepted
up to you
If that works - we will do it.
it would.

	11-07-2003 07:50									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

AS indicated in the moves thread - I chatted with nye tonight - and they do not want to move from the 5 point plan. It has been approved from their end - and they feel the cash flow issue should be manageable from our end using revolt(s).

So - I did not want to push the issue this close to the actual jump - in fact we are getting out with more pop than I think the treaty allows - but GS has not said boo yet. So I am staying quiet as well. Let's take our 60 gold and scoot.

I will send the 5 point plan back to GS approved.

If we get stabbed in the back - well such is love and war.

Sorry I could not sell it to them Harry. nye was not buying the cash flow issue - as they have a solution for us - using revolts.

	11-07-2003 07:57									#236
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Final treaty. btw - we did get the clause in giving us back any gold which is captured in the taking of the Voice.

Final Peace - the 5 points.

1. Vox 126. Vox gifts all cities on Stormia (Estonia) to GS, save the Voice, as well as Engineering. Accepted. All cities include Wittlich City, Miller Town, Beta-by-the-Sea, and Harry's Hideout.

2. GS 127. GS accepts cities and tech. Declares war, occupies The Voice. GS offers peace, Miller Town and any gold captured from the Voice back, accepted.

3. Vox 127. Vox accepts peace and Miller Town. Moves all forces into Miller Town. Offers Miller Town, unnaccepted.

4. GS 128. GS offers 60 gold and accepts.

5. Vox 128. Vox accepts 60 gold for Miller Town and all forces *blip* to their new capital. The peace is final.

Ratified by Gathering Storm

Ratified by Vox Controli


With the understanding that we could and probably will go a turn earlier by accepting the Miller Town transfer.

	11-07-2003 08:16									#237
	Inflate your Upload Space

At least they agreed with giving us our gold back. That's something. I definitely think we should *blip* the units that turn earlier. The sooner we get our forces to Legos Minor the sooner we can set up our new cities and get our unit support back to normal. Which raises a question...I don't remember offhand but was it proposed that we go to Republic or to Monarchy? If we go to Republic then we'll have to pay unit support for all 30 units (38 including the settlers though they'll go away). That's a bad idea with no roads up. If we go for Monarchy then we'll get roughly 18 supported units from the nine cities, but we will still be paying for 12 of them. We'll need to get some roads up real quick with those workers to be able to support the army we have now....unless we join some of the workers to cities right off the bat. EDIT: Just saw Harry's post and the recommendation for monarchy. I second that with the caveat of building roads quickly (good thing we're industrious ).

	17-07-2003 16:23									#238
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To and from notyoueither of GS:


RE: update

Oh yeah! Seeing others impale themselves is much better having done it ourselves. No?

Cities accepted. Peace, Miller Town and 10 gold back to you. My that's quite a bank roll you've built up, glad the bad old days are done.

Good luck on LM. We look forward to normalised relations with the Voice. What do they say? Oh yes, absense makes the heart grow fonder.

Cheers back atcha

ps. I think that's my quota of smilies for a week.


quote:


Greetings nye!

We played turn 126. All cities at size 1. 4 cities gifted to you. Engineering sent as well. Over to you.

And it is interesting to watch this war from the sidelines. Little less intense than last time around.

Cheers ..Beta.

	30-08-2003 19:06									#239
	Remove this text

Had to go looking for the GS FA thread. Received this from Velocyrix. Interesting.

quote: MUCH to discuss! Hey man! Couldn't resist writing, cos do we have TONS of stuff to talk about!!! -Chris

I responded "Let's talk. What's up?"

Guess we shall see.

	31-08-2003 04:26									#240
	Remove this text

Vel's PM. No harm in listening. I will tell him that we have a fair degree of autonomy under the terms of our agreement.

Re: PM Box now receiving
Hey bud, and no sweat!

So...I'll cut right to the chase...I'd like to talk to you about a re-strengthening of Vox, but before we get to particulars, I need some sense of how much freedom to act you have alone.

I do not know the particulars of your agreement with Lego....if you have to clear every little thing with them before the fact, or if you can act on your own and ask for forgiveness or permission later.

If it's the latter, then we can play 'let's make a deal'

-=Vel=-