08-07-2003 22:36									#271
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As I've said before, we can agree to anything long-term. It won't matter in the end. It's best not to antagonize them.

Beta is our ambassador.

	12-07-2003 03:39									#272
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From Lucky today:

quote: Hi, since our current NAP is going to expire in the next 5 turns I´d like to open the renegotiation process. You might understand that in our current situation we would really appreciate formal treaties for our both security with at least the one remaining neighbor. I´m sending you our current NAP, we would have no changes in mind except maybe one. We´d like to see a extension of the length of the treaty, maybe from 30 turns to 40. But of course we are fine with 30 as well. Thank you. Lucky Gamecatcher Alliance Non-Aggression Pact between Apolyton and GCA In the interest of peace and future cooperation, to ensure our security and friendship, the nations of Apolyton and The Gamecatcher Alliance glady agree to the following: There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter or come within 1 tile of the cultural borders of the other party without permission. Nor shall our units interfere with the travel and movement of each other outside of these borders. This agreement shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed This agreement shall not be implied in any way to create an alliance between GCA and Apolyton. This agreement is a pledge between both of our nations to keep the peace and to not engage in hostilities of any kind with each other. In the event that war is declared on or by any nation that Apolyton or GCA is in contact with, this agreement may be re-negotiated upon the agreement of both parties. // ratified in Apolyton // White Bandit Apolyton Ambassador to GCA // SIGNED // Lucky Gamecatcher President

I say the 30 turns are fine

	12-07-2003 04:59									#273
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I agree that 30 is fine. We will not be able to attack them before then.

I think thy are doing well against CDG and want to pay them a visit up north.

So they want assurances we won't step in and ruin the party.

	12-07-2003 05:51									#274
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I'm fine with a 30 turn extention. No new terms. If we add terms, they'll try to add some of their "conditions" for the Princess. I'd like to leave those out of any formal documents.

--Togas

	12-07-2003 07:27									#275
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Maybe 40 turns would be best, as that would be about the time that we are finishing up with CDG...

E_T

	12-07-2003 07:31									#276
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Just a bit that MZ posted in the chatroom, since I don't see it here also I've decided to post it:

quote: Master Zen (5:32 PM) : btw, how's the war going on? Lucky (5:33 PM) : well, we managed to repel any further attacks for now, at least that´s the good news Master Zen (5:34 PM) : ah that's good Lucky (5:35 PM) : but I see you are really mobilizing as well Master Zen (5:35 PM) : ? Lucky (5:35 PM) : you power and military rating is growing considerably over the last turns Lucky (5:36 PM) : might be you interested in helping us after all? Master Zen (5:36 PM) : well mercs add up a lot to that score Lucky (5:36 PM) : yep Lucky (5:36 PM) : but still, it is noticed Master Zen (5:37 PM) : well, one has to be prepared when having Persia as a neighbor Lucky (5:37 PM) : I think CDG is biting their nails over that issue Master Zen (5:37 PM) : heheh

	13-07-2003 02:37									#277
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We should have noted to Lucky that maybe our spike in power was not due to our build-up, but rather their loss of troops.

	14-07-2003 01:29									#278
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"the one remaining neighbour" ? Sounds like they have beaten CFC and CDG already...

	17-07-2003 10:57									#279
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Hmmm.

The FAM should feel free to send my personal apologies for the jagjef/barb camp incident.

I thought territory meant cultural borders. Honest injun. I had no choice but to land jagjef prior to receiving naval attack. He landed in the face of 2 barb horse. When he was there the next turn, and the horse were not, it was automatic for me to attack the camp that was in an unsettled region (well outside of their cultural borders). Hopefully, we reduced the barb horse problem that they may have had.

In the mean time, it will not happen again without consultation.

[For private consumption only]... and then Lucky should feel free to sit on a horseman's lance and rotate.

	17-07-2003 15:41									#280
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-shrug- I got the impression it was more of an excuse to pry about what they really want to know about, our increase in score and our intentions.

	24-07-2003 16:05									#281
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Can we sent a congratulatory note to GCA on their spectacular war win. Tell them we got a note from CDG, that they surrended to our team, and gifted their cities to us.

Wish them good luck with their CFC offensive

	09-08-2003 05:10									#282
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Chatted with Lucky this afternoon. Chatlog posted. Here are the highlights:

They are @10 turns to Currency ... we agreed to trade Mapmaking for Currency with them.

They are happy to make a border, sent over an image (below). Have no plans to settle further north or move their forces north of the proposed border.



Lucky mentioned about someone on the other continent going into the Middle Ages ... they had to fend off barbs.

He was open to my long term tech proposals (for what it's worth).

Indicates that CDG send 2 immortals and 1 spear to try one last attempt on Elucidium.

We discussed some of their attacks and probabilities. GCA has had some luck but they're very mathematical and very good tactically. Review the log for more info.


We are to draft a border agreement, Lucky will propose amendments if they want them. We'll negotiate back. This is a good chance for us to lock them up with diplomacy so long as we appear to be acting in good faith.

Whitebandit or myself will send off a typical border agreement later this weekend.

--Togas

	14-08-2003 08:19									#283
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Alright, first draft and this thing probably sounds complicated as all hell. Any suggestions for modifying it and mucking it up some, so they will want to ratify it?

Think it's possible that we can let this ride for ~17 turns or so? Perhaps not, anyway, post your suggestions!

Apolyton - GCA Border Agreement

Upon ratification by both parties, this agreement will create a border between the nations of GCA and Apolyton. The border runs as follows: It begins on the tile that is north of the tile containing dyes, which is north of the GCA city AllYourDyesRBelongToUs. The border then runs westward for 2 more tiles, where it turns northwest for one tile (tile containing the iron on a hill) and turns back west for one more tile, where it finally turns southwest for two more tiles to reach the coast, West-Northwest of the GCA city of AllYouRBelongToUs.

If one were to trace the border with a unit, using keypad directions and beginning on the tile NORTH of the dyes by AllYourDyesRBelongToUs, the unit would move: 4-4-7-4-1-1. Picture is included for reference.

This border and all tiles south of this border are considered GCA Territory, and no units from Apolyton may cross this border without prior consent from GCA. All tiles north of this border are considered Apolyton territory, and no units from GCA may cross into Apolyton territory without prior consent.

Cultural borders from either nation supercede these borders, as culture cannot be effectively controlled. Either nation may settle cities ON their respective borders.

This agreement will last for 30 turns from the date it is signed, and may be open for renegotiation after 25 turns.

Picture of Border
Red line indicates official border.

	14-08-2003 08:24									#284
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I strongly suggest against gettingo into more treaties and such. GCA is already paranoid about us, when word reachers the other continent that we are not only breaking a NAP but also a border agreement, we will get GRILLED diplomaticaly and no-one will ever trust us.

	14-08-2003 08:27									#285
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If we send that, I would submit that talk of renegotiation in so many turns would only make them nervous.

re NAP or NAP and border. Who cares? We will have broken a deal because it was the right thing for us to do. Would the border really complicate it that much?

	15-08-2003 09:54									#286
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Only reason I asked WB to propose this is that Lucky was strongly pushing for it and we believed this, and other friendly efforts we're making, will help reduce his suspicions and perhaps even get them to overcommit to the CFC front.

I would suggest that we remove the "this agreement will last" clause entirely and simply replace it with.

"Both parties acknowledge that crossing into the territory of the other party without permission is an act of war which would void this agreement."

... allows us to declare war virtually automaticaly via treaty.

--Togas

	15-08-2003 10:04									#287
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Notes:

1) In this border agreement, we do not promise NOT TO cross the border.

2) We add in that SHOULD we cross it, it's an auto-declaration of war.

And once war is automatically declared, we could then argue (it's not a strong argument, but it might work) that our declaration of war by the operation of law would basiclly void our NAP. Being in a state of war, by treaty, basicly nullifies the NAP.

It's not solid, and not without blame, but it's better than us just breaking the NAP out of thin air.

--Togas

	15-08-2003 10:10									#288
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Good loop hole Togas But what if Lucky says it's ok and no war is neccesary. Thus the Border Agreement is broken and if we still go to war the NAP is also considered void. We then have no deals that we broke.

	15-08-2003 10:21									#289
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Have we considered that wording our proposals with interesting loopholes could set off more alarm bells at GCA than technically not breaking an agreement calms any nerves at GWT or CGN?

All the loopholes in the world won't help us if we're dead.

	15-08-2003 10:24									#290
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Would they detect that though? It seems innocent enough. Do they have lawyers? Do they listen to them?

	15-08-2003 10:24									#291
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Actually Arnelos we could say when we get destroyed that we secretly diverted to another civs cities while seperating a sea. Thus we take control of the team

	15-08-2003 12:38									#292
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I like the way Togas worded it; it's perfect.

MZ: Our Rep will be what it is no matter what. It depends on the story GCA tells (if they live to tell it) and the one we and CFC tell.

	21-08-2003 01:16									#293
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War with GCA is still a ways off, but it rapidly coming closer with each passing day. My question is:

Should we start preparing a declaration of war that we will send to them immediately after we play our turn, listing grievences and why we are declaring war perhaps?

Or, should we just let the whole thing be a surprise for them to see the moment they open their turn?

	21-08-2003 06:07									#294
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I doubt it'll really be a surprise

But yeah lets draw up a declaration of war. Its a lot more fun that way.

	21-08-2003 06:25									#295
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Please tell me we sent them the border proposal.... ?

As for a DoW, I prefer something very simple:

"We have moved units onto your side of the border which, by treaty, is to be considered a formal declaration of war.

We fully recognize the skill and cunning your nation posesses in the area of war, and we are excited at the challange that a war with GCA presents.

We are not interested in negotiations or debates about this war at this time. We may consider a peaceful resolution to this conflict at a later time."

--Togas

	21-08-2003 07:20									#296
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Oh c'mon, Togas... we can have a lot more fun with it than that. We can take the American approach:

"We of the nation of Apolyton have determined that your nation has been participating in construction SOMD (Swords of Mass Destruction) and further has possession of banned HBA (Horse Biological Agents) and further still that your actions towards your own citizens have been extremely despotic, as evidenced by your government.

Your recent aggression on the nation of Elucidia and subsequent destruction of all cultural identities of that nation (including the renaming of Elucidian cultural landmarks and cities) indicate that your intent is not only to control the region, but to suppress all those who would disagree with you.

We are therefore forced, out of concern with our own national security interests, to occupy your nation for an unspecified timeframe and replace your despotic form of government with a government of the people.

Citizens of GCA! We are coming to rescue you! Throw off your regime!

Soldiers of GCA! Do not fight Apolyton. Lay down your arms, and you will not be harmed.

May God bless us in our righteous crusade to liberate this nation from evil."

	21-08-2003 09:58									#297
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I like FP's better But seriously I think it should be like Togas but more in detail and longer.

	21-08-2003 12:10									#298
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Ultimately, we have no beef with GCA nor should we. They've played a very good game and been very respectful and courteous to us. We have nothing against them personally.

War tends to flare up passion and ill-will. Ultimately, that can lead to teams throwing the game to another team just to be spiteful. Other than us risking losing this war and losing the game, we also risk that our fighting this war could make a 3rd party stronger.

I prefer us taking as noble and respectful a tone as possible. We're already breaking the NAP with these guys, we don't need to insult or annoy them any more than necessary. I don't mind trashtalking between buddies over meaningless games, but we're not buddies with GCA, and this game is far from meaningless.

I know it may seem fun to us to throw in some insults and jokes at their expense, but diplomaticly it just makes things worse. Even in warfare we need to try not to burn bridges and try not to damage relationships to such an extent that they are impossible to repair. I know we may think that we can throw away our relationship with GCA but we may be wrong, something unexpected could happen, and we could desire to end this war prematurely.

Let's keep things as civil and cordial and formal as possible.

--Togas

	21-08-2003 13:03									#299
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Agreed with Togas. PtWDG is an excellent example how wrong things may go if there is "just a little bit" of extra fun thrown into the declaration of war...

	21-08-2003 13:23									#300
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maybe we should change the word cunning. It's a bit negative.