21-03-2003 23:14									#1
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Apolyton Foreign Affairs

THIS IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE THREAD. DO NOT POST REPLIES.

Treaty Archive Thread

Creative Design Group (CDG)
contact: GhengisFarb
Civilization: Persia
Ambassador: MasterZen
Deputy Ambassador: Hot_Enamel
Status: DEAD
Elucidia Discussion Thread -- closed.

We accepted 2 of their cities, and later took their capital city, the chokepoint. In the process of accepting their cities we agreed to work together with CFC to destroy GCA.

We also gave them Polytheism & Currency (CFC gave them Horseback Riding and Construction) to get them to the next age. They then gave us (and CFC) Feudalism before their departure.

Gamecatcher.net (GCA)
contact: GCteam@gamecatcher.net, Lucky
Civilization: India
Government: Despotism
Ambassador: WhiteBandit
Status: Cold War with Apolyton. At war with CFC ... for now.
Gamecatcher Discussion Thread

At a tempory peace, as enforced by Mongoose.

CivFanatics Center (CFC)
contact: Donovan Zoi msdg@civfanatics.net, Octavian X, Gingerbreadman, Croxis.
chat: #demogame_CFC_Embassy or #civfanatics on the irc.irc-chat.net server
Civilization: China
Government: Despotism
Ambassador: ZargonX & WhiteBandit
Status: Alliance.
Fanatikan Discussion Thread
Fanatiku Constitution

Alliance Pact gives us a defense pact, neverending NAP, tech cooperation, borders, and other details, including passage for our ships so long as it's a small naval group.

Apolyton agrees to assist in their survival by gifting them 1 city should they lose all their cities.

No trade/sell/gift of contacts with CGN or GWT without agreement of us (or them).

Agreement not to give them techs until GWT has researched them, in order to keep GWT's tech costs high.

Civilization Webring Forum
contact: Iron Jackson (no longer feanor0815 [ICQ]172223878), ISDG@gmx.de
chat: none yet.
Civilization: Arabia
Government: Republic
Ambassador: Aidun
Status: At war with CGN. Allied with GCA.

We have traded them Feudalism for Engineering.


Civilization Gaming Network (CGN)
contact: cgndemoteam@miccofl.net
Chat: (server: irc.civgaming.net) #isdg-Embassy1 apolytonisdg
Civilization: Ottomans
Government: Despotism
Ambassador: conmcb25
Status: War with GWT, GCA
CGN discussion thread

Traded WM + 180g + 6gpt for our WM + Republic.

Agreement to trade Invention for Chivalry. Then CGN trades us Theology and Education as soon as they research it.
We give them Gunpowder as soon as we research it.

This was ammended by unofficial agreement. We went for Education, they went for Gunpowder. Trades will occur once GWT has researched the tech, in order to make GWT's research time as high as possible.

thegrenouille.com
contact: sebwautelet@yahoo.fr
Civilization: France
Status: DEAD

Firaxis
contact: ??
Civilization: Egypt
Status: DEAD

Treaty Archive Thread

Last edited by Togas on 07-03-2004 at 01:44

	21-03-2003 23:33									#2
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Foreign Ministry Staff

Deputy Foreign Minister: conmcb25
Ambassador to GWT: Aidun
Ambassador to GCA: WhiteBandit
Ambassador to CFC: ZargonX & WhiteBandit
Ambassador to CGN: conmcb25

Policies

CLASSIFIED INFORMATION THREAD

Whenever possible, Foreign Affairs decisions shall include the opportunity for all members of the team to voice their opinion. Polls and drafts of agreements shall be posted for this purpose, and discussions about Foreign Affairs decisions shall take place in the ApolytonISDG chatroom as well as in this forum.

All messages sent, or chats held, on behalf of Apolyton to or with any other team shall be posted in the Correspondence thread.

All messages received shall also be posted in the Correspondence thread.

All official Foreign Affairs business shall be done by Foreign Affairs staff only, except on occasion where a staff member requests the assistance and participation of any other team members.

All Foreign Affairs decisions shall be discussed with the Consuls before being implimented, whenever possible.

All Foreign Affairs decisions shall be posted and explained when necessary.

All Foreign Affairs decisions shall be made by the Ministry. In emergencies, the Consuls shall not send on the save, and shall wait and consult with members of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

In the event that the Minister of Foreign Affairs is not available, the Deputy Minister of Foriegn Affairs is fully authorized to make emergency decisions.

Ambassadors shall consult with the Minister and/or Deputy Minister before making any decisions, sending off any official proposals, or offering any new proposals to any other team.

Last edited by Togas on 07-03-2004 at 01:47

	22-03-2003 00:11									#3
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, turn 22

We are in a state of peace with our southern neighbor, CDG, and the lengthy and painful negotiation seems to have created a generally positive result. Their attitude in correspondence is more friendly and our willingness to concede during negotiations has very likely eased their paranoia and will allow them to focus more of their attention on their closer neighbor, GCA.

We have bought ourselves some very valuable time to allow our experts the freedom to build the infrastructure we will need to obtain a stronger presence on this continent. The FA recommends that our defense be made a priority as we will otherwise be forced to relent to demands made against us, or bluff, and I am not comfortable with risking our future.

In the coming turns we will obtain contact with GCA and attempt to create a strong bond with them by doing the opposite of what CDG has done to us. We will immediately offer fair tech trade deals with them, a non-agression pact, and trade information we have learned about our neighbor in common.

--Togas

	24-03-2003 11:23									#4
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, turn 24

CDG is building their first city next to GCA, not us. From observing the actions of CDG and their close proximity to GCA, and considering the attitude we've witnessed so far, it is the opinion of the Foreign Ministry that war between these two nations is very probable, and given the fact that CDG has Immortal capability, war should come within the ancient age.

Apolyton need only demonstrate patience and give these two time and space to get at each other's throats. It will happen. We should refrain from getting too involved. We want CDG to feel that they can attack GCA without the threat of us coming down on them, yet we also want GCA to feel that if they got into a war with CDG, we'd help them out.

Ideally, we would help GCA out, hopefully just enough so that CDG and GCA are weakened from the combat -- perhaps with both losing cities. When the war occurs, we can better choose our angle and our commitment level, but to prepare for this eventuality, we must be very careful about getting into any future Non-Agg deals with CDG, and if we do, we need to build in an escape clause. We must also be weary of any long term pacts or tech alliances with partners that may not be able to follow through.

In the end, I want Apolyton to be viewed as the "saviors" of GCA, not the instigators in their fight with CDG. The victors write history, and while CDG's likely tale will be one of "backstabbing by Apolyton" GCA & our joint story of how we rescued peaceful India from the fearsome Immortal threat of Persia will, in the end, be the story that is more credible, especially if a few other nations have the "good fortune" of negotiating with CDG at some point.

I implore you all -- speak of peace, cooperation, peaceful expansion, non-aggresion, and neutrality with our neighbors. Should GCA ask us for help, we should not turn them away, we should instead "take the matter under careful consideration" with our team, as we "certainly don't want to start up a war with one of our neighbors unless it's a life or death matter."

--Togas

	26-03-2003 08:45									#5
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Civilization Advances Chart

To facilitate negotiation of advances, the following chart is availiable to members of the Apolyton ISDG team. Each new era will be added as the game advances.


Ancient Era

code:

TECH			COST	PRE-REQ		UU

Bronze Working		3	-		Numidian Merc (Apolyton)
Masonry			4	-
Alphabet		5	-
Pottery			2	-
The Wheel		4	-		War Chariot (Firaxis)
Warrior Code		3	-
Ceremonial Burial	2	-
Iron Working		6	BW		Immortal (CDG)
Writing			8	Alph
Mysticism		4	Myst
Mathematics		8	Mas / Alph
Philosophy		6	Wri
Code Of Laws		10	Wri
Literature		10	Wri
Map Making		12	Wri / Pot
Horseback Riding	5	Wheel / WC
Polytheism		12	Myst
Currency		16	Math
The Republic		28	Phi / Code
Monarchy		24	WC / Poly
Construction		20	IW / Math

Last edited by Master Zen on 26-03-2003 at 09:19

	26-03-2003 10:40									#6
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, turn 26

Contact has been made. Gamecatchers came across as a more casual, somewhat juvenile bunch and were without the rhetoric and manipulative questions that we faced when speaking to CDG. GCA were initially nervous and unwilling to trade information but in the end revealed basic information and seemed interested in signing a Non-Agg with us "like what we had with CDG." They wanted an agreement that no team would go within 1 tile of the border of another team without permission, along with the standard Non-Agg stuff, and joked about having it last forever, saying they had no reason to break it. Initial tech talks were leery until Whitebandit finally got them to express that they were going to research Writing and that they would trade us Writing for Wheel + Warrior Code. We sent off our draft of the Non-Agg for their review and ratification. A tech trade is still pending.

Noted was their interest in the movement of our warrior. We deflected their inquaries initially, but later they talked with CDG and sent us a message (through Trip) saying they both agreed to let our warrior head north. We played the turn in a hurry and will have to give them the dissapointing news that their message to us came too late.

Overheard discussion in the GCA chatroom has given us strong evidence to believe that CFC and GCA are in contact. This, coupled with our vital need to understand what this land looks like, give us strong incentive to not agree to any further scouting deals, or even to negotiate on such matters. We have a Non-Agg with CDG, who cannot threaten war with us now, we also have an agreement that they will not block our scouting. We should soon have a Non-Agg with GCA. Furthermore, we agreed to only go south with BigFree and moving him back north through CDG's territory would mean us breaking our treaty, or at least consenting to our treaty being altered, something we should never do.

With the threat of war behind us, and with our recent aquisition of Bronze Working, it is my belief that Apolyton should not be bullied with regards to scouting. Our policy will be this:

1) In order to avoid hurt feelings and arguments, we should not chat with CDG or GCA about scouting "issues"

2) We will politely ignore questions about our movement and scouting.

3) When cornered we will assert that we are scouting unclaimed and uncontrolled territory that is not within anyone's cultural borders.

4) Furthermore, the movements of our units are classified information that the diplomats are not cleared to reveal to any other nation.

5) We MUST continue to talk peace and must try to seek solid tech trade agreements as an incentive for the others to not press the matter.

6) We must get Tech Trades established soon, before any major tensions over this issue errupt.

7) We need to make contact with CFC our new Priority.

--Togas

	07-04-2003 03:09									#7
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 34

It would be nice to report that we've convinced GCA to sign our trade agreement, but there is still no word from them. Chats continue to occur, although no progress can be reported. We will continue to actively and casually chat with them but this is not the time to force or bribe anyone into agreement.

Despite outside efforts to force the Foreign Ministry to adopt some long term plan, no plan will be adopted.

Foreign Ministry staff will continue to follow our clearly stated policy and procedures. There is insufficient information to plan for a long term strategy, we do not have the tools to affect it, and if we cannot get a team to decide if they want to make a simple tech trade, we cannot hope to have any real influence on their diplomacy, other than giving the impression that we are nosey, invasive, and manipulative.

We need to work through this dry period, taking baby steps towards cooperation. Our neighbors are reluctant and slow moving, and until we can gain their trust we must tread lightly and keep a chearful outlook. All Ambassadors are free to chat and small talk as often as possible. Work towards agreements now and getting future agreements in place.

Before any true manipulations can take place, a foundation must be laid down. They have to get comfortable with us, and us with them. They need to see that we will follow through with our deals. Work towards these ends.

--Togas

	10-04-2003 23:43									#8
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 36

GCA has informally agreed to our tech proposal. Both History Buff and Lucky have mentioned it in chat and agreed to it ... acting as though it was always agreed to. We are still awaiting a formal PM, but the deal is basically done.

It's time to work out our next deal.

All ambassadors are to now contact your nations and work on our next tech trade deal, to find out what they are researching, and to reveal to them what we plan to research (once we figure it out).

Friendly relations must continue. If GCA brings up BigFree we should talk to them about getting permission to move him South. If they don't mention it, we shouldn't. We need to act like we want him there and are happy to keep him there, but would be happy to move him out if they allowed us to.

We should begin asking our neighbors what they think of each other, how they feel about each other, how are things going, etc. We need to listen to them, not instigate or spread rumors now. Just feel them out and see if we can sense any brewing discord or evidence of future conflict .... or seeds of conflict we can later plant.

--Togas

	15-04-2003 03:17									#9
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Foreign Affairs Breifing, Turn 38

GCA has officially agreed to our tech proposal. The only "catch" was that we agreed to give them an extra point in the next tech deal. If we go with mapmaking, which has a value of 12, they'd give us tech with a combined value of 11 ... such as Horseback Riding & Philosophy.

It took quite a bit of patience on our part, but in the end it worked out nicely. We should be proud of our restraint. We have our suspicions that GCA was considering trading with other nations or had an offer for either Wheel or Warrior Code but decided not to take it. All of the speculation aside, what is important is that they agreed to this trade. We will use it to get them to agree to another, and we will continue to set up trades of this sort with GCA & CDG to maximise the trade value of our tech and climb the tech tree as fast as practical.

Non-Agg renegotiation is just around the corner for CDG (7 turns or so) so we should begin to consider if we want to continue that agreement, modify it, or let is slip. Getting Iron Working will give us the insight we need, however, we will not get Iron Working until after the reneg date has arrived.... we first have to finish Wheel. We should note that CDG very likely has Iron Working now, and I will ask our Consuls to check to see if the price has changed, which would indicate that they now have it.

--Togas

	25-04-2003 23:28									#10
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 42

Iron Working is out there. Writing is not. Current progress reports show that we should complete our end of the tech trade on turn 47. We will contact CDG & GCA shortly and inform them of the projected completion date and set up a trade with CDG ... and hopefully discover that GCA will be done about the same time as us.

Our Non-Agg with CDG ends on turn 51. We SHOULD start renegotiating at turn 46, however, we will finish our tech trade first, then focus on renegotiating the deal with the following terms:

Non-Aggression, no border crossing, no blocking.

All other terms should expire. We don't want them. We should be prepared to walk away from negotiations and hold our ground on this. We will certainly be polite and respectful in our dealings with CDG, but we are no longer in a position where we "need" them to agree to peace with us. It's in our mutual interest to have peace. If they will only promise peace on their terms, we must have the strength to walk away and live with the uncertainty.

--Togas

	29-04-2003 10:31									#11
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ZargonX has been appointed as our official ambassador to CFC. He was briefed this evening and will begin his work tomorrow.

I have sent a PM to FortyJ notifying him of ZargonX's appointment and asking him to contact Zargon in the future regarding diplomatic matters.

--Togas

	02-05-2003 22:27									#12
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 47

This has been a very frustrating week, as communicating with all three teams has been like pulling teeth. GCA fortunately responded in time to offer us Writing the turn before we finished our research (and inform us that they're researching Polytheism), however due to the order that the game does turns (first you must respond to diplomatic offers, THEN your turn begins and production and tech researched become available) we were unable to offer Wheel to GCA in response to Writing. Instead, we had to offer Wheel + WC separately, and they won't receive the tech early. Apology letters have been sent to explain the situation. We have also offered Wheel + WC to CDG.

BigFree has had a horrible time with CDG and the only response we've had is that GhengisFarb asked us to contact Louis XXIV instead of him. No offer of IW. We'll see if they respond to our offer of Wheel + WC.

CFC aquired Alphabet from another source and recently aquired or finished Iron Working. ZargonX has not reported back yet on any chat results with them, and updates will be given as soon as we have them.

The lack of communication and easy access to common chat channels has made things very frustrating from our end. I am stumped about how to motivate the other teams to be more "chatty" or to timely respond to our correspondence. Any help or suggestions from members of the team will be welcome.

--Togas

	06-05-2003 23:59									#13
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 50

At this time we have sent a Non-Agg proposal to CFC for a standard non-aggression pact. We have very little to fear from CFC but the non-aggression should be a good step in maintaining friendly relations and furthering our future trade interests. CFC has agreed to split the cost of Ceremonial Burial with us. They indicated they would chat with GCA about it, but given the hostility between those teams, it may be best if we work that deal instead. We have had a good chat with CFC and will continue to try to maintain a very friendly, open, and positive attitude with them. Once we have the Non-Agg done we'll try again to work out a future tech trade deal to trade them Mapmaking.

GCA seems very trusting of CDG, perhaps due to their distrust and hostility towards CFC. GCA probably truely wants to trust CDG. GCA was initially unresponsive when we told them about CDG's build up, but after a while they warmed up a bit. GCA wants to build a city where BigFree is standing and their interest in expanding into this area is very noteworthy. They seem to trust CDG too much which could mean that our fears of a secret alliace are well founded, or that GCA is just far too naive for their own good. GCA is interested in another tech deal. They are working on Polytheism. We proposed a deal to them whereby we buy CB from them, and then trade them MM + HBR for Myst + Poly. It works out perfectly, giving them the bonus point they wished for. They were very positive about this proposal and said they'd get back to us on it.

CDG, other than giving us Iron Working as promised, HAS NOT replied to any of our correspondence. We grow nervous due to their decision to go full tax, the iron in their capital, and their road building to the north. We will wait to see if they notice the Non-Agg running out on turn 51. After a few turns we'll contact them to see if they're at all interested in continuing the peace, and we'll try to tactfully avoid any diplomatic hand grenades they toss at us. We continue to debate how to handle CDG in the Elucidia discussion thread and in the #apolytonisdg channel on DalNet.

--Togas

	13-05-2003 22:40									#14
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 54

We have completed a tech trade with CFC, giving them The Wheel in exchange for Ceremonial Burial and 20 gold. We have also signed a Non-Aggression pact with CFC. Our relations are very cordial and continue to improve. However, we have been unsucessful in convincing CFC to research Mathematics or another tradeable tech, as they reported to us that they are working on Writing, and despite our offer to trade it to them, they have yet to change track. They may be trying to take advantage of the "commonness" of the tech and thereby spend less effort on researching it.

GCA has agreed to a tech swap with us, they will give us Mysticism and Polytheism, we will give them Mapmaking and Horseback Riding. Our NAP with them expires shortly (turn 59), and we will begin renegotiations now to pretty much extend the previous treaty.

We have been working on a new NAP with CDG, and discussions continue in that thread. We are also considering a new tech agreement as a means to coerce CDG to get back to researching instead of stocking up cash to mass upgrade immortals. Furthermore, we are going to set up a meeting between our leaders and their leaders to attempt to break the diplomatic formalities and get some real communication done. We are going to try to level with them about the prospects of a war with us, and be open with them in an attempt to get them to open up to us.

--Togas

	21-05-2003 08:47									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Foreign Affairs Breifing, Turn 57

No changes with CFC.

We have sent a copy of our previous NAP to GCA and they are "discussing" it. There are no new terms, it is basicaly an extension of the old deal by 30 turns. The old deal expires in 2 turns. They have build a city south of CDG touching the border and we are trying to move warrior BigFree out of their cultural border next to CDG, who we hope will allow us to move him back through.

We are in the midst of several issues with CDG:

1) We have completed a tech deal whereby CDG promises to give us Math + Philosophy for Mapmaking within 25 turns. If they do not complete it in that time, the deal is voided and we can shop around to find the tech elsewhere. We hope this deal encourages CDG to research and not to amass gold for upgrades. Given that all of their cities are linked it is unlikely that they will try a mass upgrade strat anyhow, as they cannot build warriors. Furthermore, our agreeing to this deal gives CDG a clear impression that we are heavily invested in research and not in military build up. We hope that this will further ease the tensions.

This deal was an unusual victory for us, being the first time CDG has given into our "demands" on a deal. They gave in with very little resistance. This may be a turning point in our relations.

2) We would like to move warrior BigFree through CDG's territory. We will try to throw in such movement as a condition to our agreeing to their demands for a permanent border.

3) There are some who want us to try to also get CDG to allow BFM to move through the chokepoint, but this is exceptionally unlikely. CDG would have to move away from the chokepoint and CFC would then move there and claim it. If that happened, CDG's plans to build a city on that point would be ruined. They would never risk such a thing happening and given their highened interest in controling that position, we can forget about our wishes for seeing the CFC land before mapmaking.

4) Their warrior Morris is camping on our iron. Next turn we will build a city which should thereby cause Morris to leave. If he does not, we will have a very serious diplomatic situation on our hand. We belive he will leave as they have a lot to lose ... they want a border to protect their long term expansion interests. Squatting inside our cultural borders is a big "no no", a move we could consider an act of war. They are not geared up for war at this point and want to avoid any unnecessary conflicts until their army is assembled.

We will send them a reminder to move Morris this turn and trust that they will move him either before or immediately after the city has been founded.

5) Our Non-Agression Pact has been virtually accepted, except that CDG wants to include a border provision, one that would keep each of us on "our side" of a line, and out of the backyard of the other. This would nullify our warrior screen and limit our expansion room but it would also pacify CDG a great deal and, in theory, allow us to both peaceful build and grow beside each other without increasing tensions with scouts and cities that are too close.

Given the results of the poll on borders I have decided to begin discussions on where the border should be, and will start a discussion thread about it. We will soon schedule a negotiation and will send a representative to talk with them.

6) Lastly, we have offered to sell them Ceremonial Burial for any "reasonable offer." They replied and asked us to name a price. We replied that 20g was fine. They have yet to reply, but we may want to continue to offer it to them to remind them that they really should buy it or at least talk to us more about the potential purchase.

--Togas

	30-05-2003 22:11									#16
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 62

All is well with GCA, as the NAP was reconfirmed on the turn that it expred and extended another 30 turns under the previous terms and conditions. We have sent BigFree home, at their request, and are moving him back through CDG territory.

CDG originally asked us to "hug the left coast" and then later asked us to move him EAST and then NORTH EAST, and then, when we pointed out that the left coast was on the west, they wrote back that keeping him on the West is OK, but they prefered him far away from their capital...

To add to the confusion, we have been trying to get a chat with CDG for weeks. We finally got Louis into chat for 30 minutes and were told by him that anything agreed to would have to be taken back to his team (he has no true authority) and he suddenly had to leave the chat half way through. We still await the chance to continue, but we have witnessed first hand CDG's incompetance and disorder.

They agree with the terms of our NAP, but want to add to it a border, and we have to negotiate where that border will be. We are asking for either access to the chokepoint or additional tiles to make up for our loss of western expansion room. We also need to clarify that if our culture goes over the border, than the land within our cultural borders will be ours.

Louis informed us last time that they were close to Mathematics and they appear to be on target for getting Philosophy to us by the tech trade deadline.

As for CFC, there is little word. In a chat I had with them I attempted to set up a "backup" tech trade with them, telling them that we'd trade with CDG if they got math first ... as CFC claimed to be researching Mysticism, and claimed that they'd finished writing some turns ago CFC isn't being honest with us, and we can't figure out why. Their tech research pattern makes no sense at all. They are most likely covering up for a contact they have that none of us have, and using that contact as their research outlet (like Luxia did with Vox in PTW). However, the bright side to all of this is that GCA and CDG have them trapped, and both of these teams have scouted out CFC's land and harassed them. CFC dislikes both teams and seems very friendly towards us. Hopefully that friendship will return great dividends in the future.

We will soon have Mapmaking. The FAM strongly urges our nation to build gallies to aquire new contacts to allow us to further techwhore to new nations, and to break the likely secret contact that CFC has.

--Togas

	07-06-2003 23:55									#17
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Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 63

In chats with both CFC and GCA we have discovered growing antagonism and paranoia by both. Surely, both sides are exaggerating the misdeeds of the other, but it seems clear that they are a long way from peace and the growing conflict to our south can only benefit us. If both nations get into a premature war, it will leave us free to develop, expand, and grow into a powerful force on this continent ... so long as neither side gets too great of an advantage in the war.

One of the most interesting developments from the chats was Octavian X saying that CDG would be interested in forming an alliance against GCA. Whether or not this is true needs to be discovered. If CDG is willing, this could mean a breakdown in the CDG/GCA alliance that we can capitalize on by becoming closer to GCA, and helping to pull the two apart.

In chat I told Octavian X that we could not attack GCA as we have no access to them. If CDG gave us a RoP, we would then be willing to discuss an alliance against GCA in our forum, but without an RoP the matter was moot. Hopefully this will encourage CFC to get CDG to talk to us to let us know what is and isn't possible. This will further help us gage the relations of the other teams, and help us choose the best course of action.

Our Foreign Affairs policy is devoted to the Long Term plan described by the Consuls and ratified by the team. Our long term goal is to destroy CDG, but to do so after Republic. Therefore we must continue to strengthen relations with potential allies (if for no other reason than to keep them neutral), and we must continue to carefully isolate CDG, or distract them into starting a war with someone else first.

Also note, CFC said they could give us Math + HBR in @10 turns ... but only after trading for Math from CDG. This tells me that CDG is researching and will have Math + Philo before CFC will have Math + HBR. We may as well keep our trade with CDG in tact and now work on a WM swap with CFC, with an understanding that they should return the "favor" to us in the future.

--Togas

	14-06-2003 02:36									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Foreign Affairs Briefing, Turn 67

After several days of chats it's boiled down to this: GC's warrior that's camped on CFC's iron is now inside CFC's cultural borders, as they build a city next to the iron. The warrior didn't move, and CFC then took the next step of contacting us and CDG to rally for an alliance against GC.

We had a group chat with FortyJ and Kentonio present, along with NYE and BigFree where the possibility of a group alliance (and other possibilities) were mentioned. CFC was pushing for it, CDG seemed interested and offered to give us a RoP for the purpose of the attack. We expressed some of our interests and concerns, and in the end said that we'd discuss the matter. The discussion is pretty much one-sided ... allying against GC is clearly not in our best interest. However, taking a sudden neutral or oppositional stance doesn't help our relations with CFC, and would certainly make CDG worry about their northern border. With us appearing to be on their side, CDG will ease up and begin to scheme to attack GC ... something we want. However, having CDG and CFC attack GC is a bit more than we want, at least at this time.

Eventually war will break out. We want to see if happen after our switch to Republic. Our ultimate goal is to destroy CDG, and as it becomes close to the time we will attempt to get GC & CDG into a conflict, and then hope that CFC will jump in and hamstring their hated enemy,GC ... while we clean up CDG.

We met with Lucky this morning in chat and pressed him about the warrior. He finally agreed to move it to avert the war, but expressed his reservations, issues, complaints, excuses, etc to us. We did this to help keep the peace and to demonstrate to GC that we are indeed their friends, and that we are worried about them. This act of intervention on our part should go a long way in the future with GC.

The looming spectre of war still exists, and it's very clear that CFC and GC have a seething rivalry developing. CDG is also now beginning to see the benefit they could gain from such a war, and will clearly support it.

UPDATE:

In a chat this afternoon with Kentonio and GhengisFarb of all people, we finally hashed out the longstanding border issue with CDG and got them to agree to our 7 tile line from Poly, by giving them one extra tile to the SE for a future city spot. We double and triple checked their proposal with our city planning information before agreeing to it. They have agreed and all that remains now is the formalities of signed NAP + Border all in one, including the loophole we have previously discussed.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 14-06-2003 at 09:02

	19-06-2003 10:45									#19
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I will be away from my computer and traveling Thursday night -- Sunday night (June 19-22). During this time MZ will handle things. WB is also on vacation during this time so our staff will be solely MZ and ZargonX.

This may be a good time to add more people to the Ministry.

If you are interested PM MasterZen and myself.

Some instructions:

Do WM trades with GC first, then try to sell the WM to CFC.

Please bug CFC, CDG, and GC about their tech status, we need an update on their progress so that we can better plan for our trades.

Please speak to CDG to discover what their plans are for the war.

Please keep us out of this one as politely and peacefully as possible. Remind CFC (if they start getting annoying) that they could have averted this war by agreeing to not link the iron and pull back their troops. They chose to make demands of their own with GC and they got what they asked for.

Oh, and post some diplomacy polls if we have any interesting issues. I feel bad that we haven't been able to poll and debate some of these issues but things have been happening very quickly.

--Togas

	15-07-2003 01:56									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

FAM To Do List:

Get someone at CDG to talk to us about Literature for CoL and their progress in the war. If it comes up, be concerned at their power drop and somewhat surprised at ours (guess those jungle cities are pretty powerful ), but get what intel we can. Get tech trade done ASAP and get them working on Currency next.

Finalize NAP with CFC. Discuss the galley issue.

--Togas

	27-07-2003 09:05									#21
	Civilization Advances Chart - Middle Ages Support Apolyton

Civilization Advances Chart

To facilitate negotiation of advances, the following chart is availiable to members of the Apolyton ISDG team. Each new era will be added as the game advances.


Middle Ages

code:

			Cost	Pre-Req		UU
Monotheism		36	-		-
Feudalism		32	-		-
Engineering		36	-		-
Theology		40	Mon		-
Chivalry		32	Mon/Feud	War Elephant (GCN) Ansar Warrior (GWT)
Invention		44	Feud/Eng	-
Printing Press		36	Theo		-
Music Theory		40	Edu		-
Education		44	Theo		-
Gunpowder		48	Inv		Musketeers (Gren.)
Banking			52	Edu		-
Astronomy		56	Edu		-
Chemistry		60	Gun		-
Democracy		68	PP/Bank		-
Economics		56	Bank		-
Navigation		56	Astro		-
Physics			64	Astro/Chem	-
Metallurgy		64	Chem		-
Free Artistry		52	Dem		-
Theory of Gravity	68	Phy		-
Magnetism		68	Phy		-
Military Tradition	64	Met		Sipahi (CGN)	

	01-08-2003 23:34									#22
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I will be gone Friday throught Sunday night Aug 1-3.

Master Zen is in charge of Foreign Affairs this weekend.

--Togas

	15-08-2003 00:58									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Diplomatic Chat Channels

Our GENERAL diplomatic chat channel that is open to all foreign ambassadors is: #isdgfamtalks

It has no password.

Protocal: This is a general chat room for meeting any foreign ambassadors and guests who want to speak with us. We can either chat publicly in this room, or add a random password to keep new visitors out if we plan on having a brief chat. If a largescale chat is planned with many visiting ambassadors, FAM members should create a new channel with password and tell our guests.

I ask that all FAM members idle in this channel and be available to greet visitors at all times.

note: While it would be advisable for us to have a different embassy chatroom for each team, it's VERY hard to keep that many chat windows open at once and watch all of them. And since it's rare that more than 1 team would talk to us at once, we're going to use the one general embassy chatroom policy unless problems result in the future.

Also note, we use #isdgfam (password: greatbanana) as an internal diplo chatroom. Outside guests should not be invited. This room is for FAM staff any any interested Poly team members to chat about diplomatic issues ... and also to generally goof off and tease Master Zen.

--Togas

Edit by WB: (11/09/2003) Updated #isdgfam password.

Last edited by WhiteBandit on 10-11-2003 at 11:57

	10-11-2003 10:42									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

With Arnelos's ascention to a position as Consul, I have appointed Nuclear Master to take his place as ambassador to CGN. I will ask Arnelos to help fill him in and to work with him during the first few weeks.

I have also added WhiteBandit to the list of ambassadors to CFC. WhiteBandit has been underused since the war started and with CFC being our most important relationship, I felt it was a good place for his skills.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 11:51									#25
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I will be away visiting my mother from Thurs, Dec 11 - Sunday, Dec 14. I will return Sunday night and ... have taken the day off on Monday so I can lounge around online and catch up.

In any event, Master Zen (note the space) will be in charge of things while I am away (as always).

--Togas

	11-12-2003 14:18									#26
	Guideline for Successful Negotiation Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was asked by people in the chat to repost the guidlelines for negotiating in this thread and they can be useful for any future ambassadors. Here they are, slightly reworded.



Guidelines for Successful Negotiation



1) Always be nice and polite.

2) Try and lighten up things by being humorous when possible. Do not overdo the humor by being sarcastic or mocking, or making fun of another team or person's failures.

3) Should you be confronted by an agressive and insulting member of another team (ex: Goonie), do not respond to his bullying in kind. Patiently point out that he is getting nowhere with his attitude, respond confidently, do not give in to his demands, but do not give in to insults either.

4) Should you ever get "cornered", lessen the situation by saying that you either do not have an answer or that the team needs to decide or vote upon a course of action. Invent fictionary voting results and debates if necessary. Should you NEED to give an answer at all costs, simply say that it is merely YOUR idea and that it is not backed up by popular support or by the rest of the leadership.

5) Always listen to others. Even if you know that their demands shall not be accepted or if they are unreasonable, mention that they will be discussed and that we will respond shortly. Always give the impression that we are a flexible and open team, never a pain to deal with.

6) When negotiating, there will be two situations to keep in mind:

I - When THEY want something.

When THEY want something, it is up to THEM to put the first offer on the table and negotiation begins from that point. As they begin withdrawing from their original position, we wait until the negotiation reaches a point where both parties are willing to stick with what has been said.

Obviously the idea is to get the negotiation to a point where we have reached an acceptable threshhold towards the other guy's position but also to try and get the other team to reach as close as possible their own minimum threshold. You can't go too far because after them going below their minimum they'll likely say "screw you" and storm out of the chat, but also you can't say yes immediately after reaching your own threshold because the other team might be willing to go lower.

Mathematically:

A = Your minimum acceptable threshold (ex CFC: we keep BoP and give Eq) "How far we are willing to go for this"

B = Their minimum acceptable threshold (ex CFC: a very favorable alliance with no chokepoints for CFC) "How far they are willing to go for this"

obviously A > B as far as own utility is concerned. Ideally, we should strive to try and get to B as much as possible without going farther. By accepting or making possible suggestions on agreements which are closest to A, all we are doing is to get CFC's hopes up and maybe make their B be a little closer to A which is bad.

Our objective is to reach B, CFC's objective is to reach A. The thing about putting all the options on the table at first (in other words, options close to A) is that we lose the opportunity to reach an agreement which is closer to B. Thus, in situations were we are the recipients of foreign demands, it is best to let THEM put the options on the table and negotiate from that point.

II - When WE want something.

Unlike the previous situation, we must be wary of putting our whole position on the table from the start as they might perceive it to be too much and hence insulting. By gauging a team's attitude before a negotiation, we must get a feel for how far they might be willing to go. Thus, our objective is to find the point where we can get most of what we want and not offend them by asking too much which is counterproductive. Thus, negotiating from an active standpoint is MUCH more difficult as it requires not only negotiating abilities but attitude perception beforehand.

Once we are confident of our position we must try and politiely defend our points. If no consensus is reached, we slightly back down to lesser demands. If in the event that consensus is reached on the first attempt, the possibility will exist that we can perhaps ask for a little more. This requires great skill on the part of the negotiatior as to not present an image of greed.


6) Try and always chat with those people who are more receptive to you as a person, and to your team as a whole (in other words, avoid the Goonies and embrace the OctX's or Zarns at all costs). Should none of the "favorable" foreign members be unavailable, sometimes it is a better option to postpone negotiations until they are available.

7) When defending your position, always present an "excuse" that the other team can identify with, especially those which appeal to both team's interests. Do not give as your reasons merely things like "it is of national security" or "because the team wants to", but always give a logical why. Preferably, use an analogy with a situation that the other team experienced, or in another demo game that both people have been involved in. On the other hand, do not get into childish "we do this because you/they did that" arguments. An eye for an eye is never a valid excuse, nor is stooping low because another team did so before. If necessary, INVENT excuses which are both believable and in the spirit of both team's interests.

8) Always end the chat saying it was a pleasure to deal with them and that you look forward for continued cooperation, even if the negotiation did not go as planned. In the event that the other team acted insultingly, say instead that this is a bad moment to continue negotiating, and that it is best to wait for a future time.


-MZ

Please add suggestions to this if necessary.

Last edited by Master Zen on 11-12-2003 at 14:34

	23-12-2003 23:40									#27
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Given our new diplomatic priorities, we are reorganizing the FAM team.

GCA & GWT will be dealt with by whomever is available, should either of them contact us. I am not assigning a permanent ambassador to either one until the need returns.

The final peace with GCA will be handled by WhiteBandit and myself.

There are two teams that we need to have "round the clock" coverage on. We need active and available ambassadors. Master Zen and I will continue to handle events as the need arises, but for coverage purposes, the following plan has been laid out:

CGN

WhiteBandit will be the official ambassador and primary contact for CGN. His main duty will be to chat and be available to chat, and to establish a good relationship with reps from CGN.

Togas will back him up.

Arnelos (Consul) will also back us up and will serve to authorize anything that needs a quick resolution during negotiations.

CFC

ZargonX will remain as the ambassador and primary contact. He also will be primarily a chat rep, and will be sent forth into their chatroom to make friends and influence people.

Master Zen will back him up.

Trip (Consul) will also back us up and will serve to authorize anything that needs a quick resolution during negotiations.

--Togas

	03-01-2004 01:06									#28
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Rules for Diplomacy with other nations:

1) There will always be one primary speaker for Apolyton in any formal chat. Others in attendance must keep comments to a minimum and must never start a new line of questioning or change the subject. It is strongly prefered that others in attendance do not comment at all. Comments should be made in our private channel.

2) No member of team Apolyton shall ever slander or insult another member or team in public.

3) No matter how vile the other team, good mannors, respectable tones, and restraint must always be used in any chat. Insults, badgering, and bad attitudes have no place in diplomacy, ever, and shall never be used.

4) If you break these rules or cannot abide by them, you will leave the chat immediately, and will not be involved in any future chats unless a formal apology to the other party has been given.

--Togas

	22-02-2004 13:57									#29
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conmcb25 has officially been appointed the Apolyton Ambassador to CGN.

He is presently being trained and will soon take over all primary contact and negotiation duties with CGN.

--Togas

	03-03-2004 04:08									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

conmcb25 has been officially appointed to the position of Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister in addition to his current duties as our rep to CGN.

--Togas