27-03-2003 07:39									#121
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Bring back Manning!

	27-03-2003 07:59									#122
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 cinch: I always wondered, why are people afraid of a creationist being the PM of Canada?

If someone wants to ignore science on that issue, how can he/she be expected to lead us into a technological age? At least that's how I see it. We can't afford a leader who's going to hold us back scientifically.

	27-03-2003 08:00									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Bring back Manning!

Yes, Royal Canadian Air Farce misses him!

	27-03-2003 08:01									#124
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Obi:

quote: I always wondered, why are people afraid of a creationist being the PM of Canada?

Well, first of all, Day's not just creationist... I mean, it's one thing to dispute evolution and say that God created everything, but Day said that man walked the earth with dinosaurs! 4500 years ago! That flies in the face of cold, hard, scientific fact. I, personally, would want my Prime Minister to be a little better at interpreting data.

But, I should say, if a creationist can keep his religion our of his politics, then I support his right to Prime Minister-ship (?) just as much as a Catholic/Presbyterian/Hindu/Muslim/Unitarian/etc..

But it'll be a cold day in hell before I let a goddamn Seventh Day Adventist rise to the top!

(That last part was a joke. I swear.)

	27-03-2003 08:06									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Let me guess, the Canadian alliance is a bunch of Albertans only wishing to be part of the US ?

Not quite. They do draw most support from Alberta and represent a much more American style of attack-dog conservatism that doesn't go over well with most voters here.

	27-03-2003 08:06									#126
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 cinch: I always wondered, why are people afraid of a creationist being the PM of Canada?

For the same reason that we didn't elect the Yogic Flyers

	27-03-2003 08:08									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This whole debate is just handbags at twenty paces fanned by the laughing stock Harper and his merry men the joke party the (Anti-)Canadian Alliance.

That's just as bad as people in America calling socialists "Anti-American".

Grow up.

	27-03-2003 08:09									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man For the same reason that we didn't elect the Yogic Flyers

You have them too ?

	27-03-2003 08:10									#129
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred Sadly due to the Liberals, far too much of our military protection comes from the Americans, not ourselves. We owe a lot to our neighbours.

From whom you want this protection? The only country in the world that has the biggest chance of invading Canada is the US. But if the US decides to invade Canada, it doesn't matter how much $ Canada puts towards defense spending.

The Libs aren't stupid, they are smart.

	27-03-2003 08:12									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You have them too ?

Yes, we have our lunatic fringe here as well.

	27-03-2003 08:13									#131
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UR, you're right about the "protection" part of our military - that's really a moot point. Still, it is sad to see the state out miltary has fallen in to. Given our committment to peace keeping etc, we do need better funding for the military.

	27-03-2003 08:15									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger From whom you want this protection? The only country in the world that has the biggest chance of invading Canada is the US. But if the US decides to invade Canada, it doesn't matter how much $ Canada puts towards defense spending. The Libs aren't stupid, they are smart.

Yes... logically, Canada should spend its defence budget on a small number of nuke-tipped missiles. Even if we increased the size of our conventional military fivefold, it wouldn't deter or slow down the US if they really wanted to invade... nothing short of nukes could, really.

	27-03-2003 08:15									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger From whom you want this protection? The only country in the world that has the biggest chance of invading Canada is the US. But if the US decides to invade Canada, it doesn't matter how much $ Canada puts towards defense spending. [quote]The Libs aren't stupid, they are smart.

Oh, please, the Libs aren't smart -- if they were smart we wouldn't have had about half a dozen scandals in the last 12 months.

It's not as simple as "well no one wants to invade us, so we don't need any protection!".

Canada has committments to the UN and NATO for peacekeeping operations -- committments we can't, by and large, complete properly due to inadequate funding by the Liberal government.

Not only that, but it's simply not a valid excuse to not have protection because you don't think you need it. I don't think I have to explain why.

This "smart" Liberal government constantly and regularly makes PR/diplomatic gaffes (calling heads of states morons, promising aid and assistance to both sides of a conflict, etc). They spent over a billion dollars on a gun registry in Canada that still doesn't work properly ($1B is ridiculous for Canada). They canceled helicopter orders for 40-year old copters falling apart, costing us $500M to give us literally nothing, only to reorder worse helicopters for the same price a decade later. They've made the political decision not to campaign in a province where alienation feelings are rising pretty rapidly, only to make the problem worse. When a province elected some senators, he ignored the people's opinions and put one of his Liberal cronies in instead of the senator-elect.

Smart? No, they certainly are not. They're lucky: Both in that the Canadian people don't know any better, and that Chretien has such a firm control over the media.

	27-03-2003 08:17									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Not quite. They do draw most support from Alberta and represent a much more American style of attack-dog conservatism that doesn't go over well with most voters here.

Geez, seems they polled over 1 million votes in Ontario last go around. 1 051 209, to be exact.

The Liberals did a little better than double that. 2 292 075 in Ontario in 2000.

Due to the method of deciding seats, that translated into... 2 seats for the CA and 100 for the Liberals. Nope! Nothing broke. Nothin needs fixin.

Must be good to have that archaic system kicking around, so that uprighteous folks can claim that the loons are confined to Red Neck country.

	27-03-2003 08:18									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's just as bad as people in America calling socialists "Anti-American".

Don't take yourself too seriously.

On a more sombre note, the Canadian Alliance are getting to be a bit of a joke. It is wishful thinking that the party in its present form could ever become the government of Canada. They have, as I said, an attack-dog style of conservatism in which they attempt to score as many cheap points from the Liberals as they can. In my view, and in the view of Canadians I know, this detracts from their message.

It doesn't have to be this way. Look at Joe Clark. Now there's a guy who I disagree with on almost everything, but I have a lot of respect for him because he tends to play fair and realises that parliamentary activities have to have some form of dignity and decorum. I imagine that when he retires he will be applauded sincerely by almost everyone in the house because from what I've seen he's a good politician (although not as effective as some). He is also big enough to agree with the government when he thinks they are right. Alliance members seem to try to find fault with everything and this makes them look like chronic whiners.

The Alliance seem to me to come on too hard and come across as really hating the Liberals' guts. This doesn't look good to the public either. The right needs to sort itself out and move away from this extremist stuff if it hopes to get elected.

But I agree with them on one thing - having effective one party rule is bad for democracy. But it's the fault of the right for not being able to compromise and present a credible alternative.

	27-03-2003 08:19									#136
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NYE: the CA polled 25% last election overall, didn't they?

And they got how many? 64 out of 300?

Not too far off...

The ones who got screwed were the NDP and PC...

	27-03-2003 08:21									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger From whom you want this protection? The only country in the world that has the biggest chance of invading Canada is the US. But if the US decides to invade Canada, it doesn't matter how much $ Canada puts towards defense spending. The Libs aren't stupid, they are smart.

Even still, our military is becoming rather embarrasing; the Liberals have neglected it for quite a long time now. Our helicopters are 40 years old for crying out loud, with constant problems, and our navy isn't much better.

	27-03-2003 08:21									#138
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Geez, seems they polled over 1 million votes in Ontario last go around. 1 051 209, to be exact. The Liberals did a little better than double that. 2 292 075 in Ontario in 2000. Due to the method of deciding seats, that translated into... 2 seats for the CA and 100 for the Liberals. Nope! Nothing broke. Nothin needs fixin. Must be good to have that archaic system kicking around, so that uprighteous folks can claim that the loons are confined to Red Neck country.

Out of curiosity, how many votes did the Liberals get in AB and BC compared to the 'Alliance', and how many seats did they get?

The system cuts both ways.

	27-03-2003 08:22									#139
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The problem, you see, is Canada is screwed.

Not only is the system flawed, but the people have peculiar and unusual attitudes and there are no competent leaders, at all.

This is what happens when all your smart people move south.

	27-03-2003 08:22									#140
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Geez, seems they polled over 1 million votes in Ontario last go around. 1 051 209, to be exact. The Liberals did a little better than double that. 2 292 075 in Ontario in 2000. Due to the method of deciding seats, that translated into... 2 seats for the CA and 100 for the Liberals. Nope! Nothing broke. Nothin needs fixin. Must be good to have that archaic system kicking around, so that uprighteous folks can claim that the loons are confined to Red Neck country.

Don't jump on me. I'm not entirely serious when I make fun of them, although Harper is a bit of a buffoon and doesn't do them credit. I agree the present system should be reformed in favour of a form of proportional representation. Unfortunately, this would mean a lurch to the left due to the fact that the Westminster system favours conservative parties. The NDP would do very well under PR.

But be my guest...

	27-03-2003 08:24									#141
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quote: I, personally, would want my Prime Minister to be a little better at interpreting data.

cinch:

Well, a PM is not supposed to be a scientist. I'd rather have a PM who could deliver competent, compelling speeches.

As for Yogic Flyers:


Agathon:

quote: But it's the fault of the right for not being able to compromise and present a credible alternative.

Last I heard Joe Who rejected the offer placed by the CA. So if you blame one side, blame the Conservatives.

*sigh* I miss Manning as well.

Let's have the CONFOOOORM Party!

	27-03-2003 08:26									#142
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Last I heard Joe Who rejected the offer placed by the CA. So if you blame one side, blame the Conservatives. *sigh* I miss Manning as well. Let's have the CONFOOOORM Party!

The Conservatives are not the same as the CA, why the hell would Joe jump ship to a completely different party?

I'd vote PC over CA anyday. The CA are way too religious to be sane.

	27-03-2003 08:26									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Asher [...] there are no competent leaders, at all. This is what happens when all your smart people move south.

I guess the leaders are more competent down south

	27-03-2003 08:26									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The problem, you see, is Canada is screwed. Not only is the system flawed, but the people have peculiar and unusual attitudes and there are no competent leaders, at all. This is what happens when all your smart people move south.

It is not "screwed". Canada has one of the best social and economic systems in the world. The UN Human development index always puts Canada in the top 5 and at one point recently they were top 7 years in a row. Crime is low; there is a good mix of public and private media; the health system is one of the world's finest public health systems; it manages to keep the French and English from killing each other. What more could you want?

That is spectacular success and would be trumpeted to the heavens if it happened in any other country. In the few years I've lived here I've been impressed and I've become attached to it.

So there..

	27-03-2003 08:27									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I guess the leaders are more competent down south

Actually, YES.

	27-03-2003 08:27									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Even still, our military is becoming rather embarrasing; the Liberals have neglected it for quite a long time now. Our helicopters are 40 years old for crying out loud, with constant problems, and our navy isn't much better.

The Forces are not an embarrasing. They are incredibly well-trained and can do twice as much with half the equipment as some of our allies.

Our frigates are modern and well-equipped for the jobs they have to do. The new subs are having teething problems, but they're better than the old ones and will be excellent once the kinks are worked out.

Some of the helicopters are quite old, but we also have new ones that just came into service.

Don't fall into the trap of believing the old stories about the Forces. Things are improving and the Forces continue to do excellent work around the world.

	27-03-2003 08:28									#147
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My point is, that most of the CAs support is not in Alberta. Most of it is elsewhere. They are not just the nutters in pick up trucks with stags tied to the hood.

Yes, the PCs and NDP did get it worse, and the Liberals came out best (40% of the vote with 57% of the seats).

Optimally, there would be a Commons with a semblence of proportional representation based on pop, and an upper house based along some kind of regional lines.

	27-03-2003 08:29									#148
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quote: The system cuts both ways.

Our system is fractured enough already. Why have PR and need coalition governments every election?

Asher:

quote: The Conservatives are not the same as the CA, why the hell would Joe jump ship to a completely different party?

Why not form a party that can challenge the Liberals? As is, neither party will get anywhere.

If you want to soften the CA, you need to do so from the inside...

	27-03-2003 08:29									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Smart? No, they certainly are not. They're lucky: Both in that the Canadian people don't know any better, and that Chretien has such a firm control over the media.

You're forgetting maybe the lack of a viable opposition? Mulroney essentialy destroyed the Conservatives inthe eye of the public, and Stockwell Day has done the same with the Alliance. Not to mention that the people in Ontario and Quebec will never go for them to begin with, and they need those votes if they hope to gain power. Until the Alliance starts moving towards the center, they'll never make it as a national party.

	27-03-2003 08:29									#150
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Last I heard Joe Who rejected the offer placed by the CA. So if you blame one side, blame the Conservatives.

I'm blaming both as I think that the Alliance is the problem as they are too extreme for Canada.

They need to dump everyone and stop this toadying to the Americans. In short a new Canadian conservative party that dumps the religious stuff and is slightly to the right of the Liberals on the economy and military issues. I think they'd have a good shot.