27-03-2003 08:47									#181
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Not that nobody would...but that nobody save the US could.

	27-03-2003 08:50									#182
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 If you want to soften the CA, you need to do so from the inside...

That's part of the problem, the Conservatives have become so small that they would just get swallowed up by the Alliance. And they know full well that a more moderate Conservatism stands a much better chance of going over with the general public, which is something that the Alliance won't agree to. At least not at this point in time.

	27-03-2003 08:51									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's worked in New Zealand. I don't see why it couldn't work here. Anyway Frogger is right, the brain drain is mostly a myth. Again, I would point out that Canada seems to be doing just fine given your claims of doom and gloom.

Again, you guys can believe that if you want. StatsCan did a remarkable job of skewing the numbers and figuring out when to take certain factors into account to make the numbers look more favorable to the point most Canadians assume they're right.

I'm not going to argue about it, so keep believing that. I was just letting you know that anecdotal evidence, particularly in the technology sector, totally doesn't support that. Silicon Valley in particular has a hugely disproportionate number of Canadians working there. Why? H1-Bs. Doesn't make sense to work in Canada, how both the corporate taxes and personal taxes work for high income tech companies that don't have any geographic constraints to their locations.

quote: Anyway, you should go and live in the States, you're anti-Canadian.

In due time, my pet, in due time.

You're not even Canadian though. I would love to stay in Canada if I had even a shred of confidence in the federal government. Alas, I don't.

	27-03-2003 08:51									#184
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quote: Anyway Frogger is right, the brain drain is mostly a myth. Again, I would point out that Canada seems to be doing just fine given your claims of doom and gloom.

This problem has a different source than the one Asher cites.

Why do you think our birthrate is so low? That's the real brain-drain. That is why we are having trouble finding enough immigrants to fill these positions.

	27-03-2003 08:51									#185
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I hate the brain drain argument... If Canadian doctors want to move south for more money, so be it. We shouldn't compromise our socialised health care just to make doctors extraordinarily rich. Same goes for businesses.

NYE:

on the proportional representation/regional representation bicameral parliament idea. That's what I'd like to see.

	27-03-2003 08:53									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You know you could change my mind if you cam up with better arguments. I'm sure there are lots of Canadians who are like me.

It's all very easy in theory.
The problem is, it's incredibly difficult to change people's minds politically. Something I've given up on doing a long time ago.

Not to mention that the odd vote of a person on Apolyton doesn't matter anyway.

	27-03-2003 08:54									#187
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quote: Originally posted by cinch I hate the brain drain argument... If Canadian doctors want to move south for more money, so be it. We shouldn't compromise our socialised health care just to make doctors extraordinarily rich. Same goes for businesses.

If many doctors move south (indeed, they do, that's part of the problem with Canada's shitty healthcare) -- how does that NOT compromise our socialized healthcare?

	27-03-2003 08:55									#188
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Correct. But with a government entirely decided there, you then are led to total disregard for some large issues in the other regions. That can have devastating effects, and if not changed will most likely lead to the eventual failure of the country to remain whole. I don't wish it, but I can see it.

Blame the Tories/'Alliance' for splitting the vote, then.

In years gone by, Quebec would always vote Liberal and end up deciding elections as a result. Then under Mulroney, they voted Tory... and now with the BQ they've effectively made themselves irrelevant in deciding who runs the country. Ditto for the west, thanks to the 'Alliance'.

What the country needs is for someone to start a "Toronto party" (since Toronto always complains that the province and feds crap all over them), and split the Ontario vote. Then every region has a splinter group... and the Liberals win by default But not by as much

	27-03-2003 08:55									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor DOn't wave your flag. I know Cretin is quite stupid, but there are major players in the worldwide stupidity contest. And your neighbour's president happens to be the favourite candidate, my prez being the challenger Cretin is small fish when compared with the stupidity of Bush.

Ah, that's Chretien. Cretin is a "deformed and mentally retarded person" (Oxford dictionary) that some Americans have become fond of calling him. And some Canadians as well I guess.

	27-03-2003 08:56									#190
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quote: That's part of the problem, the Conservatives have become so small that they would just get swallowed up by the Alliance. And they know full well that a more moderate Conservatism stands a much better chance of going over with the general public, which is something that the Alliance won't agree to. At least not at this point in time.

Willem:

Oddly enough, Joe Who believes that the conservatives will regain their old position. Why should they join a party when they can challenge the Liberals themselves? The problem is that the voters who used to vote for the Conservatives now vote Liberal.

Someone needs to knock both of the leaders' heads together so that they might merge.

	27-03-2003 08:56									#191
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Why do you think our birthrate is so low?

Why do you think it is?

	27-03-2003 08:57									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It depends what you want to see. To me, seeing them having to wait 6 months to get tan-colored Uniforms (forcing them to make their own uniforms for Afghanistan), buying their own radios at Future Shop since they're far better than the crap the forces gives them, seeing the copters crash regularly when they should have been replaced ages ago, seeing the very-pathetic-looking "Canadian Forces" booth at all career fairs and all over campus every month practically begging people to join them for a piddly salary -- yes, I think they're embarrassing.

Yeah, we know how you see things. If you lived in the States you'd be saying the US military is embarrassing itself in Iraq.

Yes, the Forces have to deal with too much bureaucracy. This is the fault of the government that has not provided enough equipment quickly enough. It is the government which is embarrassing, not the Forces.

Instead of saying the Forces are embarrassing, you should be proud of what they do given the equipment they have to work with. You should be proud of CF members who spend their hard-earned money to buy equipment to do the job right. That's dedication.

Salaries are not the issue. The Forces are offering a $20,000 signing bonus for helicopter mechanics and still have problems signing people up.

Far too many Canadians prefer that someone else do the dirty work rather than themselves. Add to this the fact that Canadians laugh at the Forces and ignore the hard work that the Forces do.

	27-03-2003 08:58									#193
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Why do you think our birthrate is so low? That's the real brain-drain. That is why we are having trouble finding enough immigrants to fill these positions.

Well I think that the government of Canada should immediately start a breeding program in which post grads and above are recruited to spend their days impregnating Canada's most beautiful women.

I, Agathon, would selflessly volunteer for said stern task in thanks to the people of Canada for having me.

Anyway, goodnight. I'm being booted off the computer.

	27-03-2003 08:58									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Why do you think it is?

Isn't it obvious? All the sexy Canadians are moving to a temperate climate where they can walk around in bikinis all day.

	27-03-2003 08:59									#195
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quote: If many doctors move south (indeed, they do, that's part of the problem with Canada's shitty healthcare) -- how does that NOT compromise our socialized healthcare?

Well, that's what I'm saying. We can't let the actions of a few misled doctors dictate the lifespan of our health care system. Remember, this is coming from the viewpoint of someone who values this system.... I understand it may not be logistically sound to keep losing doctors. But what I'm saying is this: Just because they want more money, does not mean we should abandon our ideals regarding the right of everyone to equal medical care. We should not sell the people of this country to the insurance companies in exchange for a few good physicians.

But maybe that's just me.

	27-03-2003 09:00									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Willem That's part of the problem, the Conservatives have become so small that they would just get swallowed up by the Alliance. And they know full well that a more moderate Conservatism stands a much better chance of going over with the general public, which is something that the Alliance won't agree to. At least not at this point in time.

The Tories have withstood similar things in the past.

They survived the wipe out after Bennett, when the Progressives flourished in the West.

They will survive the wipe out of Mulroney, and the rise of Reform/CA. It is the CA who are desperate for the merger. They know that it is only a matter of time before enough people get over Mulroney, and then Tories get elected in Ontario. Actually, the longer they hold out, the greater the chance of an eventual Liberal wipe out, and a Tory government without solid roots in the West.

Interesting enough, both wipe outs led to prolonged Liberal Majority governments.

The real question is when will people learn that splitting is not the answer to being pee'd off.

	27-03-2003 09:00									#197
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Frogger:

I hate to kill a thread, but I think it's

Tax-funded abortion on demand.

	27-03-2003 09:01									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yeah, we know how you see things. If you lived in the States you'd be saying the US military is embarrassing itself in Iraq.

Uh. What?
Why would the US military be embarrassing itself in Iraq? I think it's doing a damn fine job.

quote: Instead of saying the Forces are embarrassing, you should be proud of what they do given the equipment they have to work with. You should be proud of CF members who spend their hard-earned money to buy equipment to do the job right. That's dedication.

Oh, shush.
I'm not talking about the individual soldiers at all, I have no problem with them. When I'm referring to The Forces, I'm referring to the beauracracy of them. If I meant the men and women who served in The Forces, I'd say that.

quote: Salaries are not the issue. The Forces are offering a $20,000 signing bonus for helicopter mechanics and still have problems signing people up.

They're offering that for basically everything. You know why no one is signing up?

Look at the salaries compared to the private sector. Look at the increase in salaries over time in the private sector. It's COMPLETELY laughable.

They're in desperate need for computer technicians, and they're offering a $20,000 signing bonus. The downside? $35,000 starting salary, $45,000 after 10 years.

Roughly half of the private sector's going rates.

	27-03-2003 09:01									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Based on the articles posted by Asher alone — and nothing else that's been added to this thread since then — I just wish *all* of our so-called political and academic leaders (regardless of nationality) would just shut up and concentrate on their jobs, rather than exchanging barbs. Gatekeeper

Well when it comes to diplomatic blunders, our political people don't exactly have a monopoly. And no I'm not pointing my finger just at America, France could use a few lessons as well. Every nation has their idiots.

	27-03-2003 09:03									#200
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obi:

Doesn't answer the question. Even if you added that in we'd be far short of the US birth rate. And IIRC the abortion rate in the US is higher than here.

Look at the marriage rate...

People in Canada aren't interested in getting married and having children as young as those in the States.

	27-03-2003 09:04									#201
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quote: As for Yogic Flyers:

I will not here an ill word against the Natural Law Party!

*****

I mean, I'm too right for the NDP, too left for the PC and CA, and would rather die than vote Liberal... So why not Natural Law?

Jai Sri Krishna!

	27-03-2003 09:05									#202
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Asher, I'm curious - besides the fact that your dad can make a good living in the Alberta oil industry and maybe some scenery, is there anything you actually like about Canada? You claim to dislike the Liberal government, but I can't recall you ever saying anything positive about Canada at all. I even did a quick scan of some of your past posts to see if I could find something - nothing came up.

	27-03-2003 09:07									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger obi: Doesn't answer the question. Even if you added that in we'd be far short of the US birth rate. And IIRC the abortion rate in the US is higher than here. Look at the marriage rate... People in Canada aren't interested in getting married and having children as young as those in the States.

I may be wrong, but countries with a larger underclass do seem to have higher birth rates.

	27-03-2003 09:07									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Asher, I'm curious - besides the fact that your dad can make a good living in the Alberta oil industry and maybe some scenery, is there anything you actually like about Canada? You claim to dislike the Liberal government, but I can't recall you ever saying anything positive about Canada at all. I even did a quick scan of some of your past posts to see if I could find something - nothing came up.

I love Alberta, I absolutely hate the federal government.

The federal government IS Canada, sadly.

I like that it copied the US in many ways, such as freedom of speech.

There are more things that I dislike than I like when I talk of Canada as a whole. 99% of the dislike problems are related to the federal government.

	27-03-2003 09:12									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Asher buying their own radios at Future Shop since they're far better than the crap the forces gives them,

Say it isn't so.

Is JTF2 treated this badly as well?

	27-03-2003 09:13									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Uh. What? Why would the US military be embarrassing itself in Iraq? I think it's doing a damn fine job.

Oh I forgot that in your world view, the US can do no wrong.

quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not talking about the individual soldiers at all, I hvave no problem with them. When I'm referring to The Forces, I'm referring to the beauracracy of them. If I meant the men and women who served in The Forces, I'd say that.

So you're not attacking the men and women who serve in the Forces, but you are attacking the Forces bureaucracy, which by definition are the men and women who serve in the Forces.

The lack of proper equipment is solely due to the politicians unwillingness to provide enough money to the Forces. It is not the fault of the DND bureaucracy.

On the plus side, the government seems to be finally be putting more money into the Forces.

quote: Originally posted by Asher They're offering that for basically everything. You know why no one is signing up? Look at the salaries compared to the private sector. Look at the increase in salaries over time in the private sector. It's COMPLETELY laughable. They're in desperate need for computer technicians, and they're offering a $20,000 signing bonus. The downside? $35,000 starting salary, $45,000 after 10 years. Roughly half of the private sector's going rates.

That's the problem with Canadian society. Too many greedy people who demand the government give them everything, but are not willing to give anything back in return.

You could sign up for four years, get a $20,000 signing bonus, make a good salary, get good experience and serve your country.

But no, life for you is just about money.

Quote frankly, the Forces are better off without your type.

	27-03-2003 09:14									#207
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Say it isn't so. Is JTF2 treated this badly as well?

I'd assume they aren't, but I don't know. The government never even acknowledged JTF2 existed till a few years ago, and we still don't know how many of them there are or what they use...

	27-03-2003 09:15									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Let me give you an idea of how bad it is, especially in the tech sector: Go to a computer science career fair at your local university, and take note of how many of those companies don't even operate in Canada.

It would be interesting to see the results if someone were to do a comparative study of all the countries in the world, no let's just say the industrial world, that had some of their better educated and skilled people moving to the States. I suspect the numbers for Canada wouldn't be very much different than say the UK. A little higher perhaps because of our proximity, but not by much.

And how many of them eventually move back, has anyone ever bothered to include those figures? Many of those jobs are done on a contract basis, and many of the people come back to Canada when the contract has finished.

	27-03-2003 09:16									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You could sign up for four years, get a $20,000 signing bonus, make a good salary, get good experience and serve your country. But no, life for you is just about money. Quote frankly, the Forces are better off without your type.

What do US/British soldiers earn? Is it a lot more than Canada pays?

Or do they attract people for other reasons - 'patriotism' - or perhaps that's the other benefit of a large underclass - army fodder?

	27-03-2003 09:17									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Even better, didn't he make an analogy about our brains going south like the water over Niagara does or something? Only he ****ed up on directions...

Yep, that's Stockwell for you, opens his mouth in order to change feet.