18-04-2003 02:31									#181
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To the new Iraqi government. Where else?

Duh.

	18-04-2003 02:41									#182
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dv8ed :
I'm not saying the interests of France in Iraq were moralistic. Just like the interests of the US in Iraq weren't moralistic either.

Please don't throw me the line "We went there to oust Saddam" : Both countries have made propaganda effort to explain they were on the moralistic high ground : you country obviously was motivated by the sole motivation of freeign the Iraqis And my country obviously was solely motivated by the salvation of peace and UN predominance

I'm just saying you cannot expect from a country to collaborate when your behaviour is a kick in the nads of this country's interests. I'm sure the US wouldn't be glad if a powerful country helped Cuba to remain socialist after Castro's death. And such a discontent would be normal, because this country's behaviour would completely go against US interests in the area.

	18-04-2003 02:42									#183
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Frogger :
Care to give details on how you hadn't any satisfactory freedom of speech ?

	18-04-2003 02:45									#184
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Sign laws in Quebec. Freedom of speech means freedom of choice of language.

	18-04-2003 02:49									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Please don't throw me the line "We went there to oust Saddam"

I would pass on this, because it's mostly right, except for one thing. I honestly believe Dubya went there for moral reasons. The rest of the American government, doubtful, but I think Dubya is just stupid enough and just ernest enough to have actually believed that line when he said it.

quote: I'm just saying you cannot expect from a country to collaborate when your behaviour is a kick in the nads of this country's interests. I'm sure the US wouldn't be glad if a powerful country helped Cuba to remain socialist after Castro's death. And such a discontent would be normal, because this country's behaviour would completely go against US interests in the area.

So why is a boycott bad then? If you were acting against our interests, why should we collaborate with your economy?

And don't say that it was the government, not the economy, because the two tend to be related.

	18-04-2003 02:50									#186
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In Québec, signs must be in French ? I thought they had to be at least in French, but were allowed to be in another language as well.

	18-04-2003 02:52									#187
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quote: Originally posted by dv8ed And don't say that it was the government, not the economy, because the two tend to be related.

French and American business organizations both openly worried about the degradation of the relationship between the two countries, and both warned about the dangers of a boycott.
The economy won't profit from it.

Edit :

quote: So why is a boycott bad then? If you were acting against our interests, why should we collaborate with your economy?

Countries go into each other's interests all the time. In Europe, the real bastion of international cooperation, the council of ministers is a huge haggling table where pretty much everybody disagrees. Yet we don't punish the Brits because they didn't collaborate with France on our research of more agricultural subsidies. Yet the Spaniards won't boycott the Poles even if they'll lose much of their European infrastructure money. Etc.
Punishing a country because it defended its interests, especially when yours took the initiative of ruining them, is completely stupid. It is exactly the kind of eye for an eye that leaves the whole world blind.

	18-04-2003 02:55									#188
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Oh, it certainly won't. But I thought the point was to kick the other guy in the nads.

	18-04-2003 02:57									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor In Québec, signs must be in French ? I thought they had to be at least in French, but were allowed to be in another language as well.

Now they are. But French must be "more prominent". For ~5 years only unilingual French signs were allowed.

Neither law is acceptable. If somebody wants to put a sign up that's only in English, or Swahili, or Mandarin they should have the right.



I hate to tell you this, but the way to preserve french culture isn't through unconstitutional and repressive laws. And even if it were the only way to do so, it still wouldn't be acceptable. Victimising minority groups by stifling their freedom of expression is repugnant.

The English in Quebec haven't run things for 30 years, but the paranoia still hasn't left the halls of the NA in Quebec city, and it rears its ugly head on every visit to the ballot box.

	18-04-2003 03:00									#190
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quote: Originally posted by dv8ed Oh, it certainly won't. But I thought the point was to kick the other guy in the nads.

The scene : US kicks France in the nads by threatening its client Saddam
France : 'Ouch, you kick me in the nads ! Take that !"
France kicks the US in the nads by actively opposing US policy
US : "Ouch, you kicked me in the nads ! Take that !"
US population starts boycotting French products

Where should it end ? Should we go all the way to a commercial war between the EU and the US ? Or should we stop to look only at his own bellybutton ?

	18-04-2003 03:03									#191
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quote: Where should it end ? Should we go all the way to a commercial war between the EU and the US ?

Why would an EU-US trade war develop? Americans only hate the French and I doubt the frogs can convince the rest of Europe to join them in a suicidal trade war with the world's biggest economy...

	18-04-2003 03:05									#192
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Frogger :
I hate to admit this, but you're wrong. Laws, constitution and repression sure cannot save a culture, but it can tremendously help.

In France, a law has been passed by the culture minister, that radio stations had to broadcast French at least 40% of French speaking music IIRC, including 20% of young artists. Until then, the whole French musical scene sucked, except for a few very rare bands. Now, a ton of good bands ave had their chance to be broadcasted, and the disc industry has been amazed to notice there was a demand for French music, even among the young generation. Today's French music is pretty solid, and it wouldn't be if this repressive law hadn't existed.

	18-04-2003 03:06									#193
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The EU could start to impose some of those 4 billion dollars in trade barriers that they've been granted, to start off with. Or individual member countries could do so for their part of it.

	18-04-2003 03:06									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The scene : US kicks France in the nads by threatening its client Saddam France : 'Ouch, you kick me in the nads ! Take that !" France kicks the US in the nads by actively opposing US policy US : "Ouch, you kicked me in the nads ! Take that !" US population starts boycotting French products

This is actually funny if you do it with the proper French and American (preferably Texan) accents.

quote: Where should it end ? Should we go all the way to a commercial war between the EU and the US ? Or should we stop to look only at his own bellybutton ?

I don't know. I'm not the one who's worried about kicks in the nads.

	18-04-2003 03:08									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Where should it end ? Should we go all the way to a commercial war between the EU and the US ? Why would an EU-US trade war develop? Americans only hate the French and I doubt the frogs can convince the rest of Europe to join them in a suicidal trade war with the world's biggest economy...

It is impossible for a lawmaker to do sanctions on French products only, because EU countries belong to the same market and same origins. Would the Yanks be bigoted enough to demand their lawmakers to punish French imports, these lawmakers would have no choice but to punish all EU products.
France could never convince the EU to enter a commercial war with the US, but a bigoted US could force the EU to enter such a war.

	18-04-2003 03:15									#196
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quote: It is impossible for a lawmaker to do sanctions on French products only, because EU countries belong to the same market and same origins. Would the Yanks be bigoted enough to demand their lawmakers to punish French imports, these lawmakers would have no choice but to punish all EU products.

Why would American lawmakers decide to put sanctions on French products? The American people are doing a pretty good job of it on their own, which avoids the international problems that would come with official action by the US government. It's win-win for the US.

quote: The EU could start to impose some of those 4 billion dollars in trade barriers that they've been granted, to start off with.

There are good reasons why the EU hasn't imposed those trade barriers. I don't see how a dispute between the US and France is going to marginalize those issues and convince the rest of Europe to enter a trade war.

	18-04-2003 03:20									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why would American lawmakers decide to put sanctions on French products? The American people are doing a pretty good job of it on their own, which avoids the international problems that would come with official action by the US government. It's win-win for the US.

Most French goods and services in the US aren't sold to the consumers, but to businesses that have every interest to keep their providers. The most efficient way to hurt the French economy in the US would be to discourage these businesses to buy French.

Remember, i'm talking about the worst case scenario when both Yanks and French continue to endlessly take revenge of the other's offenses. If the Yanks are bigoted enough to demand their lawmakers to do it, if antifancism becomes a significant issue for next elections, the lawmakers might do this idiocy.

	18-04-2003 03:21									#198
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The US entered a trade war with the rest of the world 2 years ago. Everybody else has just put up with your **** until now.

	18-04-2003 03:25									#199
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quote: Remember, i'm talking about the worst case scenario when both Yanks and French continue to endlessly take revenge of the other's offenses. If the Yanks are bigoted enough to demand their lawmakers to do it, if antifancism becomes a significant issue for next elections, the lawmakers might do this idiocy.

Ok, I see what you were driving for. I don't think you have to worry about the American people pushing for official sanctions on France; most Americans don't care enough about France to want that. We're a little pissed off right now, but France is still pretty irrelevant in most American's thought processes.

quote: The US entered a trade war with the rest of the world 2 years ago.

The US passed some politically motivated trade barriers that will disappear soon after the next election. The rest of the world was smart enough to put up with it for a couple years and avoid a real trade war.

	18-04-2003 03:28									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten We're a little pissed off right now, but France is still pretty irrelevant in most American's thought processes.

Glad to read that

	18-04-2003 06:04									#201
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I'm sure GWB has a real vital role in mind.

Cleaning the latrines...

	18-04-2003 08:15									#202
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I've heard that Chirac is in trouble politicly because of the financial cost to France of his backstabbing behavior. French might not have a clue about who to support when an allied democracy fights a torturing, murderous dictatorship, but they know it when their wallets get thin.

Btw, there might not have been a war had our allies, France, Germany, and Russia been allies. A united front might have made the difference...who knows?

Do you know we GIVE Russia over 100 million every year? That's gotta stop.

	18-04-2003 08:30									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi France worked to undermine a US course of action that we felt was vital to our security interests.

No we did not. A minority of Americans bought into that stupidity. Until it became apparentl there was going to be war no matter what (barring regime change in the US), a majority of Americans were opposed to war.

What I found interesting was listening to people at work say one thing before the war began, and then another thing after the war began. I have never witnessed such a herd-like change in mentality before. People who that the Prez was full of crap before, and then afterwards talking about how Hussein might give WMDs to the terrorists.

Americans can be some mighty gullible SOBs when you get right down to it. We ain't dumb, just sheeplike. Sheep with big muther****in teeth that like to hump everything in sight.

	18-04-2003 08:32									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I've heard that Chirac is in trouble politicly because of the financial cost to France of his backstabbing behavior.

Stabbed us in the back? You're begining to sound like a famous German.

	18-04-2003 08:50									#205
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No we did not. A minority of Americans bought into that stupidity. Until it became apparentl there was going to be war no matter what (barring regime change in the US), a majority of Americans were opposed to war.

I think many americans changed their minds just to piss off the french. We might have been lukewarm about the war, but we sure weren't about to let the french think they could stop us

	18-04-2003 09:02									#206
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a majority of Americans were opposed to war

Wrong. For the last 12 years, never has the war opposition had the majority.

Why do some always repeat this untruth?

	18-04-2003 09:10									#207
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"No we did not. A minority of Americans bought into that stupidity. Until it became apparentl there was going to be war no matter what (barring regime change in the US), a majority of Americans were opposed to war."

That's not correct. With UN support there has been a pro-war majority for a very long time. After it became clear that France was simply not going to cooperate no matter what, and as Bush more forcefully made the case for war, a majority of people supported the war.

"What I found interesting was listening to people at work say one thing before the war began, and then another thing after the war began. I have never witnessed such a herd-like change in mentality before. People who that the Prez was full of crap before, and then afterwards talking about how Hussein might give WMDs to the terrorists. "

Before war had actually broken out, support was already at a very high level.

"Americans can be some mighty gullible SOBs when you get right down to it. We ain't dumb, just sheeplike. Sheep with big muther****in teeth that like to hump everything in sight. "

So if they have a different opinion then you do, or if they keep an open mind as to the events, they are sheep. An amazing new height of arrogance from you, Che. If you feel such contempt for your countrymen, why do you stay among us, instead of going over to live with "sophisticated" Eurocoms?

	18-04-2003 09:28									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman I think many americans changed their minds just to piss off the french. We might have been lukewarm about the war, but we sure weren't about to let the french think they could stop us

There's actually a lot of truth to that.

	18-04-2003 11:33									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Do you know we GIVE Russia over 100 million every year? That's gotta stop.

That's such a pittance compared to the grants given to Israel each year.

	18-04-2003 11:59									#210
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quote: Stabbed us in the back? You're begining to sound like a famous German.

Don't you mean an Austrian?