29-12-2003 04:16									#421
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I am not necessarily against using the UUs to trigger the GA. I am necessarily in favour of listening to the team on important issues.

If circumstances warrant reopening the issue of the UUs and the GA, I would welcome a renewed debate.

To be honest, i do not consider any tactic that is open to all human players to be an exploit. Fortify all with a galley is not an exploit by my way of thinking. Fortify all so that your troops can use full movement and be fortified before the player earlier in the turn order can move is an exploit.

	29-12-2003 04:17									#422
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Dom, We ARE playing to win AND we are a democracy. Yes, sometimes, the 2 seem to be mutually exclusive, but they really aren't. As for the Lurkers, a poll does allow for them to be involved, even in that small of a manner.

The problem that some of us have had, is that some of the polls have been put up at the spur of the moment, partly because someone (or other) doesn;t like how things are being done (call them spite polls). When you have proper discussion before any major decisions are made, via poll, then things are going like they should be.

The key, in all Demo Games, is the make sure that you team members are as Informed as possible, so that when these polls do come up, they are handled properly and with complete forthought.

Yes, I think that we should have the possibility of triggering our GA by having an ally who would do that for us (and visa versa). But then, that same argument can be used when dealing with Farming Elites and GL's. When you do the one, what really stops you from doing the other (or some of the other exploits)? How far do we go on that route, before we say that we won't go any further. It's easier to say no before hand than to try to stop half way into it.

Yes, if we act the honorable team, we very might lose. But, I'll do my damndest to keep that from happening. But it we do lose, so what, we can have the pride that we did lose with all of our Honor intact. Could the same be said of the possible winner of this game, if we do lose? I would doubt it if it's GWT or GCA.

Sometimes nice guys do finish last, but we don't go down easy....

E_T

	29-12-2003 04:39									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Should we load other team's saves to see their map? Should we reload to get better combat results?

Obviously not, since these things are already not allowed according to the UN charter/consitution/whatever. This is the reason I'm a big fan of deciding all this stuff before a game starts: then, all teams can agree on a common set of preferences, and by honor promise to respect them.

But what do you do mid-game when an issue comes up? Well, honorably speaking, the first thing is to bring it up with all the other competitors to see what they think about it. If they think it's okay, then it's up to you to decide whether to use it or not. Not the other way around. This is because when you're playing to win, it's what your opponents think that matters, not what you think. If your conscience tells you not to use a certain valid tactic, then you're less of a competitor and need to accept that fact if your goal is still the win.

As you may know from the MZO ISDG, I'm a strong proponent of "no exploit" PBEM play (I'm even a supporter of combat logs!). But when a game is underway and I want to win, I'll gladly use all the tools legally available to me to make it happen. If we plan on winning this ISDG, I think team Apolyton should do the same.

quote: What if the other teams (for whatever reason) thought it was okay? Would we still do it?

I imagine many of us would quit at that point. I doubt any of us would quit if we had to use the GA-triggering "exploit" (case in point: although many did not support the Palace jump maneuver, none left the team over the issue).


Dominae

	29-12-2003 04:47									#424
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I imagine many of us would quit at that point. I doubt any of us would quit if we had to use the GA-triggering "exploit" (case in point: although many did not support the Palace jump maneuver, none left the team over the issue).

Why?

Would you quit?

	29-12-2003 05:06									#425
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Obviously not, since these things are already not allowed according to the UN charter/consitution/whatever. This is the reason I'm a big fan of deciding all this stuff before a game starts: then, all teams can agree on a common set of preferences, and by honor promise to respect them.

One thing that kept this from happening with this game, was the speed that it was set up. The game was still relatively fresh and the exploits wer just coming out to mind. Ofcourse, we had assumed that everyone would play the honorable method and if an exploit did crop up in mid play, then is was assumed that no one would use them.

quote: But what do you do mid-game when an issue comes up? Well, honorably speaking, the first thing is to bring it up with all the other competitors to see what they think about it. If they think it's okay, then it's up to you to decide whether to use it or not. Not the other way around. This is because when you're playing to win, it's what your opponents think that matters, not what you think. If your conscience tells you not to use a certain valid tactic, then you're less of a competitor and need to accept that fact if your goal is still the win.

We have relied on Mongoose and Co to make any rulings about anything that might have come up. But now, maybe it;s time we changed that. Maybe we should compile a full list, present it to the ISDG board (and other teams) at 1BC and see what everyone says about them. Get this finished with once and for all.

quote: As you may know from the MZO ISDG, I'm a strong proponent of "no exploit" PBEM play (I'm even a supporter of combat logs!). But when a game is underway and I want to win, I'll gladly use all the tools legally available to me to make it happen. If we plan on winning this ISDG, I think team Apolyton should do the same. I imagine many of us would quit at that point. I doubt any of us would quit if we had to use the GA-triggering "exploit" (case in point: although many did not support the Palace jump maneuver, none left the team over the issue). Dominae

I never new that there were people who were opposed to the Palace jump. It's almost been stated, if not explicidly, but implied, that we would be moving out palace, almost from the very start. I don;t remember any big debates over the matter, except for people who didn;t know what moving the Palace entaled and the mechanics of it.

E_T

	29-12-2003 05:09									#426
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If, by UN vote, it was decided that it would be ok from now on to reload saves, open another team's save, and "cheat" in any similar way, yes I would quit.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 05:13									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If, by UN vote, it was decided that it would be ok from now on to reload saves, open another team's save, and "cheat" in any similar way, yes I would quit.

Why?

	29-12-2003 05:40									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Why?

Trip, I believe you're trying to trap me by arguing that reloading saves, etc. is analogous to "friendly" GA-triggering with respect to departures from how the game was meant to be played.

If you step back, you'll see that this move is not a very good argument: the "exploits" you're comparing are in an entirely different class. Although almost every player will agree that para- or meta-game exploits are basically cheats (fanes7 is a remarkable counter-example), there's is a lot of debate concerning which in-game exploits are okay and which are not. Put another way, there's a definite sense in which not reloading is an honorable thing to do, while it's less clear that avoiding Palace-jumps is "honorable".

If for no other reason, playing a PBEM where reloads are allowed would be tedious and boring, since you would need to play every turn a huge number of times to remain competitive.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 06:19									#429
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So you accept the fact that there are things which people would believe to be "wrong" to do, yes?

The majority of our team just happens to believe that the GA exploit is one of those things, just as you think reloading or looking at another player's save would be.

	29-12-2003 06:41									#430
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Trip, I just anticipated your very argument in the post above yours and countered it there, yet you go ahead and lay it out anyway. Sigh.

If you think that 1) reloading and 2) peaceful GA triggering are on the same level, then you might have a point. But I'm sure this is not your position. Nor is it the position of anyone else on the team. I feel safe in affirming this even without a poll.

---

The point of all my posts here is twofold:

1) To petition our team to go the UN with these issues first, then decide what we want to do from there, instead of posting a in-team poll and saying that's that.

2) To rethink our goal in this game, and how we mean to achieve it. In particular, there's no point in being squeamish about things that other teams are not squeamish about (like Palace jumping, or friendly GA triggering, or the Galley Fortify All trick).

Of course, if the other teams all agree that friendly GA triggering is a no-no, then we will respect them (let's not turn into GWT!). But preemptively doing things because of our high-bred code of "honor" will get us nowhere; what good did Gathering Storm's "honor" do in the end?


Dominae

	29-12-2003 06:50									#431
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While I agree it's an exploit, Dominae does have a point. Let's bring this up with either the UN or mongoose to get a preemptive ruling. If for no other reason than to have something more to say than "our team declares it wrong" when CFC asks for a warrior swap for GAs.

	29-12-2003 06:52									#432
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Anyway, sorry to stray off-topic. I will now enter lurker mode again.

	29-12-2003 07:01									#433
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Don't do that Dom. You have made some very good points about the "exploit" status of triggering a GA with UU's with your ally fully aware and agreeable to the procedure. I would vote "yes" to use it, in a poll, if the UN said it was "ok."

	29-12-2003 07:12									#434
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Actually, I will now enter "gone" mode until after New Year's. I'll start to lurk again after that.



Hope everyone is enjoying their holidays.

	29-12-2003 07:16									#435
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Trip, I just anticipated your very argument in the post above yours and countered it there, yet you go ahead and lay it out anyway. Sigh. If you think that 1) reloading and 2) peaceful GA triggering are on the same level, then you might have a point. But I'm sure this is not your position. Nor is it the position of anyone else on the team. I feel safe in affirming this even without a poll.

There's a line beyond which things are either deemed acceptable or unacceptable. You place the GA exploit on one side of the line. Most other people place it on the other side, including me.

Having an instantaneous 1.5x boost to your economy whenever you want is a huge advantage. That is why a GA can only be triggered by a UU or by wonders. The purpose of triggering it by a UU was during a major war where your entire country rallies to put forth a greater effort, etc. etc., not because you and a friend are conducting training exercises.

quote: The point of all my posts here is twofold: 1) To petition our team to go the UN with these issues first, then decide what we want to do from there, instead of posting a in-team poll and saying that's that. 2) To rethink our goal in this game, and how we mean to achieve it. In particular, there's no point in being squeamish about things that other teams are not squeamish about (like Palace jumping, or friendly GA triggering, or the Galley Fortify All trick). Of course, if the other teams all agree that friendly GA triggering is a no-no, then we will respect them (let's not turn into GWT!). But preemptively doing things because of our high-bred code of "honor" will get us nowhere; what good did Gathering Storm's "honor" do in the end?

Maybe GS is sorry now. Maybe they now wish they had used exploits to be in a better position. Maybe not. That's for them to decide, just as this is for our team to decide.

In any case, this team does not want to reload the turns during war to win, this team does not want to load other team's turns just as this team does not want to engage in the GA exploit. Not because we care what other teams would think, or because of a UN ruling, but because of what this team thinks about its own conduct.

If this team has already decided what it does and does not find acceptable, why would we want to go to the UN first before making an internal decision about what to do? I understand you want us to engage in this exploit but if we already have a team which is against it, why go to the UN and ask about it, only to decide internally that we won't be using it anyways?

There is currently no UN rule which bans reloading of the turn to gain more favorable results. Just as there is no ban on the use of GA exploits we have, as a team, already accepted the fact that we will not use such tactics.

UN rules are not everything.

	29-12-2003 07:23									#436
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Yawn. Trip, I'm trying very hard to get my point across, and you're just repeating the same thing over and over again. Clearly you feel very strongly about the friendly GA triggering issue, so much so that even conceiving of using it is a dirty deed. So be it.

To the others who previously voted against friendly GA triggering: please think about what I'm saying, and how it applies to this (oops, this) game. Maybe I'll convince some of you that some "exploits" are not really exploits when your opponents do not care if you use them or not.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 07:33									#437
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Your argument has been if the UN (and thusly a general consensus between and within teams) finds it acceptable then it is acceptable on the grounds of remaining equal and competitive.

I've read all of your posts very carefully and that's what I'm getting from them.

Yet you said yourself that if the UN found reloading/looking at another team's turn acceptable then you'd quit the game.

So is that... when the UN rules in favor of something I find acceptable and honorable its okay to do, but when the UN (and a gamewide consensus) rules in favor of something I'm against I pack up and leave? There's a serious consistancy problem with the grounds of that argument.

	29-12-2003 07:45									#438
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There is no inconsistency. There is a very real difference between metagame-type exploits and in-game alliance-type exploits.

What's the difference, you ask? Well, for one, no one that I know of condones PBEM play where reloading is allowed (fanes7 from the Strat forum was a SP-only type of guy), yet many people think alliance-type exploits are fair game (including anyone who plays MP, or so I hear). I can very well imagine people agreeing that Palace-jumps are fair game; I cannot do the same with reloading, or hacking the game files, or whatever.

It's clear to me that you're just lumping these two very different things together in order to make an argument that supports your position, namely that friendly GA triggering should not be allowed. Unfortunately, it's a very weak argument, and misses mine by a mile.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 07:58									#439
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You're claiming there's no one who would condone such action. There's probably not. But what if the UN ruled that it was acceptable? Assume they did, however improbable.

The reason you're lumping them into two different categories is because one category some people agree with, and another fewer people, maybe none agree with. Assume THAT distinction did not exist. Just try to think along these lines. For a moment assume that people DID support those sorts of tactics. Would you go along with the ruling or not?

If you want the UN to be the sole arbiter or what's to be allowed and what isn't (assuming a team's decision was based off of that alone) then you should be willing to accept their judgement in all cases. That is what I'm arguing. Do you want decisions to be based solely off of the UN or not? Yes or no?

	29-12-2003 08:02									#440
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Cut the crap of absurd examples, please Trip. it really does not help debate on this issue. Sorry to be blunt.

Now, when did we poll on the exchange of units for GA purposes? I do recall many of the people in chat being against trading units for GAs with CFC, but when did we poll it?

	29-12-2003 08:05									#441
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Cut the crap of absurd examples, please Trip. it really does not help debate on this issue. Sorry to be blunt.

I asked a simple question. Do we abide by the UN in all cases or not? If no, then we cannot use it as the sole arbiter because it can be fallible.

	29-12-2003 08:11									#442
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Dominae's real point is that we should not dismiss using a certain tactic. You two can take the debate down and up and down again through all forms of sophisticratic rabbit holes, but it does not change his basic point.

I would like to repeat, when did we poll on the exchange of units for GA purposes?

Now I will add, does a given poll taken at one time apply for all times, or are we open to discussion and revisiting issues that may change in importance over time?

	29-12-2003 08:16									#443
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Feel free to poll it now or in 20 turns or whenever. I never said we couldn't or shouldn't.

My point is that simply because the UN green-flags something doesn't mean we should automatically assume that it's okay for us to use.

He argues that it is. I disagree. Is there a problem in debating that issue?

	29-12-2003 08:20									#444
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It was discussed but never polled, because the discussion was so much against it, that a poll was never posted.

E_T

	29-12-2003 08:26									#445
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I see a problem with Consuls coming down like a ton of bricks on someone who dares to suggest that we should consider something, although God knows I have likely done the same. It is not good for encouraging more people to pipe up and get involved.

And his basic point remains that we should not dismiss a tactic, not that the UN should be our sole guide as to what is good for us to do or not.

And I am really curious where from came the earlier claims that 'we' have decided against 'ever' using this tactic. [Ahhh, thanks, E_T, I did not think that I missed such a poll.]

	29-12-2003 08:27									#446
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While exchanging units for GA purposes is something I have done accasionally in MP, I really dislike it. Both for realism reasons (Getting a benefit from having an ally kill the troops of the other ally?!?, I am sure having the British shoot down an F-15 would go over real well...) and for general gameplay reasons. I rank this up there with "Leader Wars" and the such.

	29-12-2003 08:33									#447
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As I said, I have no problems in debating the issue, posting another poll, etc.

He suggested we re-consider it, I'm against it, so that's what I argue for. People can decide for themselves what they want to do, I'm not forcing anyone to do or not do anything.

	29-12-2003 08:34									#448
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btw CiverDan, I agree that from a realism POV, trading units for GAs is not what I would prefer.

I would also prefer never to have been in a game where an opponent thought that 10 or 15 consecutive wins vs Mercs with horse was not perhaps just a tad bit too much on the believable metre.

I would also prefer not to be in a game where another team could not see the problem with forting all so that their stacks could move full and be fortified before their opponent had a chance to move once.

I would also prefer not to be in a game where two teams think it is cricket to A: lose a war and then B: keep the winner of the war in perpetual WW by the gifting of cities at a safe distance to ensure that a potential future opponent is crippled.

I am not living in the best of all possible worlds. I am playing in a game vs such opposition. I was ambivalent about the UUs and GAs before. I am reconsidering my position.

	29-12-2003 08:37									#449
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My position on this rather heated issue:

IMO both Trip and Dom are right except y'all seem to be missing the other's point. In my PoV, two conditions must exist before we allow this: 1) a favorable UN ruling 2) a favorable poll within our team. But both are necessary, after all, even if a UN ruling allows it that doesn't mean we are forced to do this. Also since this is not in our alliance treaty there is nothing preventing us to deny it to CFC we simply tell them that we voted against it because the team feels it is an exploit. CFC can live with it or get pissed off but we are not here to concede to their every whim especially with issues which border on the exploit/cheat zone.

Personally I am against this sort of thing, I believe actions like peaceful GA triggering can eventually lead to other more exploitish issues like peacful leader farming which are even more destabilizing. However, I have no objections of having a poll and seeing what the team thinks, and if they are in favor, well, we can do it.

-MZ

	29-12-2003 08:39									#450
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We are also still very much in contention for winning this game and the game admin will force peace upon the rogue team.

I've seen the argument posted in many PTWDG team forums about "x uses exploit a so we can use exploit b." And I disagree with that. We can beat them anyways, and get the ruling of the admin to help us in making things fair.