11-12-2003 21:01									#391
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I think MZ's plan may be the way to go for now. Though I am having trouble respecting it because the avatar it is coming from...

	11-12-2003 21:49									#392
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I think MZ's plan may be the way to go for now. Though I am having trouble respecting it because the avatar it is coming from...

"oh ye of little faith!

here, have a cookie!"

	11-12-2003 21:54									#393
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The rider is a decent unit, but its weakness is like any other mount, hills and mountains slow it down. The land around equilibrium is...just that. and jungle. even if we gave up equ, it would be quite a slog for those riders.

	11-12-2003 22:43									#394
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I do. The Rider is the most powerful offensive unit in the game. I refuse to believe that they will waste its small window of opportunity. They know they are a 2nd rate civ. Their only chance for equality, is to take a large chunk of Apolyton. They dont have to win the war... just take a chunk and call the war a draw.

Proportionately... the Sipahi is.

Even if they do attack us, we will be able to deal with them. We get Chivalry from CGN in 3/4 turns and can have a sizable Knight force in place long before CFC ever acquires its first Rider. A large Knight reserve in the south would pound any Riders who try to burst north and over by Equilibrium the terrain is so awful that we could easily delay them as they march towards our core. We then land behind them, cut them off and eventually kill them.

	12-12-2003 02:54									#395
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I have little doubt that we could counter them and win the war.

But that wont stop CFC from still trying.

	13-12-2003 08:04									#396
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I had a short chat with Bootstoots from CFC earlier today.

Basically, he said that they had pretty much hammered things out for the alliance and wanted a "draft meeting chat" to finalize things.

I asked Boots if CFC could forward Monotheism to us next turn, and he said they would.

I then brought up the issue of tech cooperation in the future. He said that CFC was probably planning on doing Theology next. I told him that CGN was probably doing that and it may be best if CFC and Poly worked together to do "joint" research on techs instead... Basically, CFC gives us money to research faster and then we give them the tech. This would allow us to keep much of our gold reserve that we'll have once done with Invention to use for other things (future deficit research and Knight upgrades, etc.). Boots liked this idea and said he would bring it up with the rest of the team.

	20-12-2003 08:26									#397
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A PM I just recieved from Zarn a couple minutes ago:

quote: Foreign Issues CFC has several things to go over with Apolyton... 1) Since you took the disputed chokepoint, we at least wish to have the land immediately west of it. Only a couple (literally) of our people were willing to give it up. There has even been a call for a city to be placed very close to your new one. There was alot of disappointment. They wanted the land just as much as you did. 2) On a more positive note, our Science Minister keeps on asking me on a plan for cooperating in technology. We are about to begin our next advance very soon. Our minister says that we have to have a plan by the next turn (CFC's). He also wants to know if it would be a good idea to having CGN involved as well. 3) CFC is thinking about demanding GCA's territory and having GCA move its troops off the continent to the land of the Webringers. Pros: We can have peace, they aren't on our continent Cons: They are still alive (unless we can comvince GWT otherwise which is unlikely) 4) Who is you foreign minister or the equivalent of one? I'm curious. 5) Did you come up with a pact proposal yet? We should compare and iron them out.

	20-12-2003 08:29									#398
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Once more, we need to give them an answer on things:

The border issue.

Science (I think we should have them save up gold and give it to us to help our research).

Alliance agreement.

	20-12-2003 08:36									#399
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My thoughts:

1) We will "grant" them all of the land west of the chokepoint, and will futher explain why we built a city there in chat. We must be careful not to argue over who gets to build there, that's not an issue and we don't want to get into that sort of position. We merely should explain our reasons for having a city there and deflect the argument by "giving" on other demands they have.

2) The science cooperation idea is a great one that I feel should only include us and CFC. We will need to remain flexible should CGN later trounce GWT and we'll have to switch sides to keep the balance.

3) I don't care what they do with GCA's troops. I'd rather they kill them, personally.

4) That's me. I'll PM Zarn to tell him who to talk to.

5) We do have a treaty draft that is waiting for final approval by the Consuls.

--Togas

	20-12-2003 18:07									#400
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quote: Originally posted by Togas 4) That's me. I'll PM Zarn to tell him who to talk to.

It seems to me that you need to work out your Marketing skills, Togas

	21-12-2003 11:42									#401
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How about having them work on Monarchy?? That way, we can get the HG wonder (Industral) without having to research it ourselves.

E_T

	23-12-2003 11:28									#402
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The following treaty proposal was sent to us by Gingerbreadman of CFC:

quote: APOLYTON AND FANATIKOU HEREBY AGREE: That we are brothers and full allies in our ventures in this game. We recognize that in order for this alliance to be fulfilled there must be complete peace between our two nations. We also agree to take steps to defend each other in times of war and to take all other measures necessary to ensure mutual prosperity for our two nations. In order to ensure our continued rosperity we hereby agree to the following: 1) There shall be no war or conflict between us, and our units shall not attack each other. Our units may not enter the cultural borders of the other party without that party's express permission. There shall also be a 1-tile buffer zone around cultural borders, and advance warning shall be given to the other party in the event that this buffer zone needs to be breached for any reason. 2) We agree to consider an attack on one of us to be an attack on us both, and shall go to all means necessary to defend our partner in this alliance. All offensive wars and actions shall be jointly planned and executed by both nations. 3) We agree to cooperate and communicate regarding any disputes between our two nations that arise at any point. We shall resolve our differences in chat, if any differences arise. 4) We agree to support each other in technology research, and a full tech parity shall be maintained between our nations. Also, we agree to provide loans and other support to the other party if needed by that party and if possible. 5) We agree not to settle cities on the other party's side of the border. This border shall extend from the Apolytonian city of Equilibrium in the north through the central lake to the isthmus in the south, with Fanatikou controlling the current site of the city of Balance of Power.

	23-12-2003 11:51									#403
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No to the "full tech parity shall be maintained between our nations."

No to the "...with Fanatikou controlling the current site of the city of Balance of Power."

Part 2 needs to be reworded so that if CFC goes looking for trouble and lands troops on another Continent (Civ), then APO is not bound to go save their butts.

Part 4 needs refinement to include CFC giving us gold to do research. Perhaps we do 60% with them doing 40%; that should get them caught up to us by the begining of the next age.

	23-12-2003 12:17									#404
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posted by me in the Alliance thread just now, in response to BF:

quote: Adding to BF's idea of CFC giving us gpt in exchange for tech: This is actually a GREAT idea, even if we actually do a deal straight up: (i.e., no percentages). CFC will think that we will be having tech parity, but in reality, we won't. Here's why: We will be trading with CGN. All trades that we do with CGN will have a no-trade clause attached which means that we will not trade it with CFC. Now given that most techs we will reasearch ourselves, then we get the trading rights with CGN, not CFC. CFC will only be able to trade those techs which it researches itself (using 40-turn techs) which means that for every tech CFC manages to trade, we'll be able to trade about 3. So we will be very much ahead of CFC in terms of techs despite them thinking that we will have tech parity. I will give a practical example: Let's suppose Poly researches tech A, CGN does B and CFC does C (40 turns). We will do A in 15 turns thanks to the CFC gold, we trade that to CGN for tech B. We also by treaty give it to CFC. Now we start on tech D, we trade that to CGN for tech E but CFC hasn't finished C yet. At this point, Poly has techs A,B,D,E but CFC only has techs A,D. And so on...

	24-12-2003 09:54									#405
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When do we get out of the business of appeasing the other teams?

We appease them when we are weaker, we appease them when we are equals, we appease them when we are stronger. When does it stop? Apolyton is begining to look like a bunch of wimps.

	24-12-2003 10:07									#406
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When we win the game through superior diplomacy and tactics.

	24-12-2003 22:14									#407
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree When do we get out of the business of appeasing the other teams? We appease them when we are weaker, we appease them when we are equals, we appease them when we are stronger. When does it stop? Apolyton is begining to look like a bunch of wimps.

Maybe we are appeasing them so that we can grow that much stronger and be a challenge to the 2 teams who might win this game.

That's reason enough for me.

E_T

	24-12-2003 23:02									#408
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My post was a joking post though still valid, but E_T raises the best point about this. We need to look long term. The two civs on the other continents outstrip us in almost everything right now. If we're going to compete with those two civs we need to improve our production base, economy, and military all at the same time. To do that we need to have time, and allying with CFC both gives us that time as well as other benefits like tech research.

Both CGN and GWT are involved in a war and likely concentrating on that and not economy so this is our perfect opportunity to work on our economy and production base to be able to even compete with the other continent. Yes we could probably annihilate CFC now instead of allying with them and appearing "weak", but in doing so we commit fully to military again instead of REXIng and economy. By the time the war would be over yes we'd have control of our continent, but our economy would suffer another to the point we might not be able to get going in time to compete with the other continent.

Allying with CFC is our opportunity to compete with the other continent. There is no weakness in that, only strength.

	24-12-2003 23:07									#409
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Here is another way to look at it too. Yes, we are giving something up to CFC...but in return we are getting something much greater! We will possibly give them Equilibrium and the techs that we jointly research...in return we gain the time to build ourselves to the point we can not only compete with the other continent but steamroll CFC if we choose, and also we gain faster tech research and empty much of CFC's gold coffers into our own.

	28-12-2003 23:15									#410
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Talked to GBM from CFC last night. Log and summery are posted in the correspondences thread Talk with Mongoose about GCA peace and with GBM of CFC about treaty

One thing that was a bit interesting, was that he had twice made mention of getting Chiv, so that they can get their GA! and the only way to do that, with Chiv, is with their UU.

Maybe they think that we will trigger each others GA with out UU?? Or is this a veiled threat?? No telling.

We also talked about what they will be researching via the slow route. I had to leave early, but Trip or Arnelos might have more to say.

E_T

	29-12-2003 01:17									#411
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If CFC is expecting to (peacefully) trigger their GA by killing one of our units with a Rider, I bet they'll be pretty angry when we tell them we're morally against such a tactic.

Perhaps we should rethink this matter? As far as I know, there's no law against in the UN charter.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 01:22									#412
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UN rule or not, the vast majority of the team is against it, which means we're not going to do it.

	29-12-2003 01:28									#413
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We can always poll again.

I imagine that if all other teams thought it was okay, including our oh-so-special CFC (who could put great pressure on us to help them trigger their GA), the previous vote could be rescinded.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 03:32									#414
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It doesn't matter what the other teams think. Our team thinks its an exploit.

	29-12-2003 03:49									#415
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Why are you so against a repoll on this Trip?

If all the other teams say: "Go ahead, use that 'exploit', it makes no difference to us", then who cares if we use it or not?

This is not a SP game, where you impose gameplay restrictions on yourself to have more fun. This is a competition, where it's up to you and your fellow competitors agree (preferably before play begins) on a code of conduct, and everything else is fair game.

In other words, if the others teams do not deem this an exploit, we're denying ourselves a powerful maneuver for no good reason. It would be similar to deciding, at the outset, that we should never deviate from OCP.

By no means am I calling for us to "win at all costs". But between spending a bunch of Shields on useless Wonders and just triggering our GA the easy way, I see nothing wrong with the latter way, assuming the other teams are in fine with it. We need every chance we can get to catch up.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 03:54									#416
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The decision not to use that exploit was based upon the fact that we want to play honorably (at least with game matters), not because we care what the other teams think of us using that kind of tactic.

Go ahead and repoll. The results will be the same.

	29-12-2003 04:02									#417
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I guess I'm having trouble (again) with the whole democracy game concept.

Are we playing to win, or are we playing a democracy game?

Most of the time, we sound like we're playing to win. But our current government, at times, has the potential to make sub-optimal decisions (in general...I'm not reffering to GA triggering yet), mainly due to public polls on important issues.

Back to GA triggering. If we are playing to win, then our team's opinion on the issue is actually less relevant than the other teams', simply because if by UN approval we can trigger our GA using CFC and our UU, we're in a better position than if we have to do it with Wonders. Agreeing internally that it's an "exploit" does us no good.

I cringe every time I see a poll go up, because I know it's basically a delegation of responsibility from those who are putting time and effort into to winning this game, to those who are lurking and simply cannot be as informed as they need to be.

I'm sorry if you feel this post/sentiment is useless, it just hits me once in a while when catching up on this forum.


Dominae

	29-12-2003 04:09									#418
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Above all else this is in fact a democracy game. That means the will of the team overrides what the officials want.

The officials are, as you said, informed and have put a lot of time in. It is their job to inform the rest of the team. Usually, the best argument will sway team opinion. It's not as though the lurkers will randomly decide what to do, and I don't recall a team decision which went against what most of the officials wanted.

Besides, the majority (if not all) of the officials do not want to use this exploit either.

	29-12-2003 04:09									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The decision not to use that exploit was based upon the fact that we want to play honorably (at least with game matters), not because we care what the other teams think of us using that kind of tactic.

What is "honorable" about not using the GA-triggering "exploit"? It's a mere preference, not a matter of values or whatever.

Consider the case of breaking treaties: should this be considered a matter of "honor"? Sure: if we decide to break treaties left and right, other teams will feel sour toward us, and our reputation as oath-breakers will precede us in future dealings (either in this game or some future one). This is because there's a tacit understanding that, like in real life, a promise means something.

Back to GA-triggering (which, incidentally, has no real-life analogue). If all the other teams think it's okay, what purposes does our "honor" serve us? It's great to have a romantic notion of honor, but in the end all honor traditions have utilitarian motivations. The difference here is that our team's preference has no real "honor" precedent in any shape or form.

It's simply bad gameplay to deny ourselves something powerful, when it's right there for the taking (honorably!).


Dominae

	29-12-2003 04:15									#420
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae What is "honorable" about not using the GA-triggering "exploit"? It's a mere preference, not a matter of values or whatever.

That's exactly what it is. It's a desire not to use exploits.

quote: Consider the case of breaking treaties: should this be considered a matter of "honor"? Sure: if we decide to break treaties left and right, other teams will feel sour toward us, and our reputation as oath-breakers will precede us in future dealings (either in this game or some future one). This is because there's a tacit understanding that, like in real life, a promise means something.

There is a difference between in-game honor and gameplay honor. In-game honor involves diplomacy and it is accepted that teams may break treaties to their own benefit. It's both realistic and in fact, often expected. There is a difference between that and making use of of game mechanics in a way not intended by the designers to get an advantage. There is strategy in reading other team's and how they will act towards you and other teams. There is no strategy in taking advantage of the game.

quote: Back to GA-triggering (which, incidentally, has no real-life analogue). If all the other teams think it's okay, what purposes does our "honor" serve us? It's great to have a romantic notion of honor, but at some point down the line all honor traditions have utilitarian motivations. Same here. It's simply bad gameplay to deny ourselves something powerful, when it's right there for the taking (honorably!).

Should we load other team's saves to see their map? Should we reload to get better combat results? What if the other teams (for whatever reason) thought it was okay? Would we still do it?