10-12-2003 09:27									#361
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quote: The status of cities in the tile directly east or west of the chokepoints shall be determined under a separate agreement.

do you mean status of cities on the chokepoint ? I am a bit confused reading this agreement.

	10-12-2003 10:06									#362
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the problem is that "the chokepoint" doesn't really exist as a tile, the chokepoint is really the point in which both tiles converge. Thus there really can't be a city on THE chokepoint since there isn't a chockepoint per se.

But your point is valid. Here's a possible re-write:

quote: 3) The status of cities immediately on either side of the chokepoint shall be determined under a separate agreement.

	10-12-2003 12:55									#363
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MZ, how do we now deny Equilibrium to CFC if the team votes down giving it to them, given that our own negotiators put the suggestion on the table first?

	10-12-2003 13:12									#364
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Oh please. We tell them no.

If you notice, we didn't promise ANYTHING. I simply asked if something like that would be a suitable compromise. We vote it down, I tell them the team voted it down. After all, I'm just a dumb ambassador, I don't represent the views of the team, I simply try to work out agreements.

	10-12-2003 13:23									#365
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You don't see a problem in getting hopes up then yanking the rug out from under them?

	10-12-2003 13:35									#366
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nye, that was a big slip up on our part, I will take full responsability of it since I was there present. As you can see from the chat we tried saving face by saying it was merely an unofficial idea, however, I agree, smashing their hopes can be worse than having said no from the start, we will work on it during the next days so at to not keep their hopes up.

However, I believe it is time we brought back the debate on giving them one of the chokepoints. Last time we talked about the issue, most of the FAM was in aggreement that there should be no problem with giving CFC Equilibrium as long as we have fortress rights in the mountain.

I've tried to think if there's ANYTHING we can offer CFC to compensate the moral blow of them not getting a chokepoint, sadly, either I am too unimaginative, or there simply isn't any. Now, why do we want to give them a city, is it appeasement? Yes, in a way, appeasament that serves our interests for the sake of peace during our REXing phase. If we want to get as close as possible to a guarantee of peace during this time, then we can't do it by antagonizing CFC and making them more resentful and jealous, that's a strategy that might reafirm our position as a dominant power, but who knows how they'll react?

I am all in favor of attacking CFC once we get Cavs, eventually we HAVE to do it, however, in the meantime, lets get things to work out well, have a good neighbor and get all our new cities up and running, if this be at the cost of giving up Eq, why not?

	10-12-2003 13:41									#367
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Why not? Because a major part of this team might go ape **** at how easy we are making it for CFC to walk into and out of that lake.

Now, that the FAM likes the idea of giving CFC Equilibrium is all well and good, but when was that confirmed by a poll and blessed by 2 of the 3 Consuls?

I myself have said that I could live with giving CFC Equilibrium... as a last resort. We are barely into the process, and don't even have BoP secure yet, and the suggestion of caving into CFC was brought up... by US.

This was a major mistake, I agree. Now, the question I asked you... how do we now deny Equilibrium to CFC?

	10-12-2003 13:58									#368
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Chat between BigFree, Master Zen, myself, and WhiteBandit about the diplomatic incident and aftermath. This has been HEAVILY censored and edited because, frankly, most of heated discussions between members in chat who do not believe their comments will be publicly posted should remain private. That said, there are some of the POLICY statements we each made that the team should hear, though I'm sure the participants will do their best to lay them out here has well (or so I hope... you better ).

quote: Arnelos> I agree with nye's concern, as I stated in the CFC thread Arnelos> I'm concerned about the expectation game here .... Arnelos> I don't want CFC believeing they're ENTITLED to a chokepoint BigFree> Exactly WhiteBandit> frankly, we better decide something quick. do you honestly think CFC is going to be content with us simply telling them to sod off BigFree> they get what we give them WhiteBandit> if we want to work together, we need to work stuff out MasterZen> Arnelos and BF, I also agree that we should not have said this in this chat, but let's be serious, what the hell can compensate CFC for not getting one chokepoint? ..... BigFree> we wnat them to think this is an equal relationship, but in fact it is not. We are the dominat partenr WhiteBandit> i asked if it would be a suitable compromise to put on the table MasterZen> BF: yes, but that's not the attitude we need to show atm! ..... Arnelos> WB - thing is... we shouldn't be suggesting it... we should be COY about even the IDEA of that... and then "GIVE IN" if it seems we need to and it woudl be a nice gesture BigFree> Yes, I know MZ, thats why we just always say we will consider their proposals, but in the end we must deny them. 3:4P1 WhiteBandit> well regardless, at least they think we're somewhat benovelent at the moment since we are willing to look for compromises MasterZen> we are entering a period of massive REXing, in this time, a war would SEVERLY hamper this process. We need peace, we need to secure it for the next 40 or more turns, IF we have to compromise by giving them Eq, why the f--- not? BigFree> Those choke points were our security, f--- CFC...thats what they were after as well, or a launch pad for a Rider invasion. Arnelos> Master Zen - while we need peace, we need not be jumping to appease CFC at the START of negotiations MasterZen> seriously, do any of you have any brilliant ideas of what else we can give CFC? BigFree> Because we dont have to MZ, thats why WhiteBandit> we're not appeasing them BigFree> Why do we have to bend over to appease them? WhiteBandit> we promised NOTHING WhiteBandit> we simply offered up suggestions BigFree> Ok, WB WhiteBandit> we can turn around and just say no BigFree> well, that would be my stance WhiteBandit> either way they'll be mad then no matter what we told them now WhiteBandit> :P Arnelos> see... the point is that I think we'd rather that if we were to give something up, it was CFC that suggested it MasterZen> Arnelos: I am not defending the appeasement during this chat, like I said, I would NOT have said it myself, but we have to work with what we did now, and regardless of that, CFC will be VERY dissapointed by us eventually not giving any chokepoint WhiteBandit> i don't think it's that big of a deal .... MasterZen> now, why on earth do we need Eq? It's corrupt, its far, surrounded by mountain, we can set up a fortress in the mountain beside it and there! BigFree> It's a strategic location MZ BigFree> We can also trade the extra silks MasterZen> strategic my a--, it's nothing that WE couldn't overcome should we ever invade it MasterZen> we aleady have silks ...... MasterZen> I am all in favor of ----- (attacking) CFC once we get cavs, tell me, what difference will Eq make to US? BigFree> We have one silk BigFree> near anarchy BigFree> maybe two BigFree> why not have them all? MasterZen> why not have all the continent then, right now? Arnelos> I suppose the critical point to make right about now is that the ambassadors in chat do not set policy and do not make policy suggestions on trades to the other team. That said, I think that's been gone over enough tonight. Arnelos> I think we may very well end up giving them EQ, just not yet and not this way. .......... .......... (long heated discussion between BF and MZ) .......... .......... Arnelos> look... this discussion needs to happen, but it needs to happen within the team before negoations go forward. Until the team decides the issue of what we're offering CFC and what we will accept, I don't want any ambassadors offering up suggestions of things Apolyton would be willing to concede. Say we're discussing it, sure, but we'll give them details once we've decided ourselves what they are. BigFree> Exactly MasterZen> Arnelos, I agree 100% on that MasterZen> but at the moment of the chat, what on earth could we have said after the comment was made? Arnelos> MZ - granted ...................... ...................... (far more heated discussion between BF and MZ ) ...................... ......................

I'm sure the two sides of this debate can go over it here in the forum and we can try to convince each other (well, at least those of us willing to be convinced ) and vote on what we're willing to put on the bargaining table if need be. Until then, as I've stated in chat and I want to make clear to everyone, I do not want anything placed on the table. Let's figure out what we're willing to place on the table first.

Once the team has decided what we're willing to put on the table and how dear those items are to us, we can hand the situation over to the negotiators to haggle and try to get us a decent deal, only giving away those things which the team has agreed it is willing to give away.

So let's start discussing this. A new thread will be needed and MZ said he's going to form it. That's fine by me. Please post comments on this there.

	10-12-2003 14:20									#369
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why not? Because a major part of this team might go ape **** at how easy we are making it for CFC to walk into and out of that lake. Now, that the FAM likes the idea of giving CFC Equilibrium is all well and good, but when was that confirmed by a poll and blessed by 2 of the 3 Consuls?

I NEVER said that just because the FAM likes the idea is the reason it was said in the chat. I already told you that it was a slip up, period. We will do our best to correct it.

quote: I myself have said that I could live with giving CFC Equilibrium... as a last resort. We are barely into the process, and don't even have BoP secure yet, and the suggestion of caving into CFC was brought up... by US. This was a major mistake, I agree. Now, the question I asked you... how do we now deny Equilibrium to CFC?

you yourself answered that question:

when was that confirmed by a poll and blessed by 2 of the 3 Consuls?

denying it to them straight up is the same as giving to them straight up. It's moot because the team hasn't yet decided.

	10-12-2003 14:22									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Chat between BigFree, Master Zen, myself, and WhiteBandit about the diplomatic incident and aftermath. This has been HEAVILY censored and edited because, frankly, most of heated discussions between members in chat who do not believe their comments will be publicly posted should remain private. That said, there are some of the POLICY statements we each made that the team should hear, though I'm sure the participants will do their best to lay them out here has well (or so I hope... you better ).

Considering that all sides made some valid points why did you only highlight YOUR points?


(btw, you make it sound like me an BF spend our entire chat time having long and heated arguments )

	10-12-2003 14:28									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Considering that all sides made some valid points why did you only highlight YOUR points?

I bolded only those last two because that was my "this ends here and it ends now" comment. I wasn't participating in the discussion of the MERITS of the idea, which is what you and BF were arguing, I just wanted to make clear the METHOD by which that argument needs to take place.

quote: (btw, you make it sound like me an BF spend our entire chat time having long and heated arguments )

You mean you don't?

	10-12-2003 14:32									#372
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I don't like Arnelos's edited chat log. I don't think he should have posted it. I liken it to tape recording some of your friends coversation's then re-playing for everyone else you know. It's just not right. It's not an "official" log.

Also the chat log was clear that is was just an "idea" and nothing at all was promised. It might have been a slight slip up, bu nothing major that the FAM can't fix. I have 100% faith that WB and MZ can handle this in the future.

	10-12-2003 14:46									#373
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I don't like Arnelos's edited chat log. I don't think he should have posted it. I liken it to tape recording some of your friends coversation's then re-playing for everyone else you know. It's just not right. It's not an "official" log.

Duly noted. We need to decide what is private and what is public. Our discussion was in #apolytonisdg, not #isdgfam, and was thus technically a public discussion rather than an internal cabinet or FAM discussion (the latter of which I believe should remain private, but nothing has been formally written down and decided on that).

That said, if people want to make chats that take place within #apolytonisdg private as well, we need to discuss that and agree upon it. I went ahead and cut out a good 80% worth of the actual chat just on my own accord, but there was nothing preventing me from posting the whole thing or preventing another from doing the same. It was a chat held between members in a public discussion channel... there's absolutely nothing that says that such things shouldn't be logged and posted.

If we want to prevent people from doing it, we need to put that in writing and make sure everyone understands it.

This is as good a time as any for that to happen.

	11-12-2003 05:07									#374
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The only logical reason to hold Equilibrium and BoP is that they are both APOLYTON cities, with Apolyton citizens, built by our sheilds and population.

CFC could counter that they would "buy" one of the cities from us, and that may deflate our argument. Ultimately, our true reason for wanting both is that we're selfish, and that reason doesn't trump their security and equality concerns.

I know there are many on this team that advocate war on CFC. I'm not one of them. Unfortunately, my belief that long-term cooperation helps Poly also comes with some costs, and one of those costs may be Equilibrium.

But if we take a hardline stance and hold onto both, I don't see much of a long-term future with CFC. There is a cost to keeping that city, and that cost may very well be losing a valuable ally and (virtual) subordinate state.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 11:11									#375
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Let's investigate the possibilities. Does anyone in the FAM think that we should at least try to keep both? We haven't said no yet. We haven't seen the effect of saying that yet. Can we manage the situation so that we can see if we can keep the large segment of our population happy by keeping both, or do we just want to throw in the towel?

	11-12-2003 11:19									#376
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Considering that Goonie, bootstoots and Zarn have all said on separate occasions (in reference to BoP) that "they have spilled blood for thousands of years fighting GCA and feel it is only fair", I'm personally not sure of what other options we have.

	11-12-2003 11:23									#377
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I'd like to keep them as much as the next guy. I'm not generally the generous type. But this is one of those situtions where we have to be mindful of our ultimate goal with CFC: True peace.

Here's my thoughts:

I can certainly argue that they're our cities. We built them. Our pop and our sheilds and our blood was spent on them. It's not fair of them to demand that we give up our own cities. We'd never ask them to do that. We're concerned about Riders and want to be secure, and this ensures security.

I could probably think up a few more good arguments. If we were debating with CFC, we'd likely win such a debate over the chokepoint cities. But what would the result be? We'd win the battle and lose the war.

We keep them, they begrudgingly go along with it and internally begin plans to attack Poly once they have enough Riders. Why? Negotiations didn't give them what they ultimately wanted: Equality.

Frankly, I don't think it's about the lake nor is it about their sacrifice fighting GCA. It's about them feeling equal to us. Them wanting to also be in this game, and them wanting us to treat them like a co-equal in our relationships and negotiations.

While this may ultimately be their downfall (it may lead to us ultimately having to destroy them), it doesn't have to be our downfall too.

We know what they are and how to treat them. If we are wise in our methods and in our behavior we can appease them in the short-term ... at least until our expansion phase is done and our wonders are built.

And then. Who knows? We use our new power and glory to own the whole continent, or we find that they have grown out of their issues and needs and we ride our partnership all the way to victory.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 11:30									#378
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Are we willing to try to see what they might be?

Are we certain that CFC would commit suicide by rider in attacking us over the choke points? Considering the relative points of development, that is what they would be doing. Yes, they would get their GA. So too would we, and we would be in a much better position to make use of it.

What I'm looking for here is a willingness to look for alternatives to caving in. I am looking for ideas other than the ones that we may have convinced ourselves about.

I think Togas' idea of drawing them in, of showing them how valuable the collaboration could be, and then letting them down on the choke points could be the way to go. Will they really say, 'no choke point, no peace'? If they do, then I trust we could recognise we are at the brink.

The real work here, is finding out how to avoid the brink, and keep the choke points. Is anyone up for it?

	11-12-2003 11:30									#379
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We have to look at the larger picture here.

GWT and Netolian (or whatever) are the two most powerful teams right now. They don't like each other (and I think they are still actually at war with each other).

GCA is all but finished.

Poly is the dominate power on our continent and CFC is a bit player right now.

If we make the small sacrifice of one city, one corrupt city I might add, we would have the possibility of forming an Alliance with CFC. What good is an alliance? Tech. With the other continent at each others throats, they will only be able to research one tech at a time. Over here, we will be able to do two at once.

WE NEED CFC TO WIN THIS GAME!!!
Lets not sacrafice the game for one city.

	11-12-2003 11:31									#380
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btw, CDG gave Equilibrium to us. We did not build it.

	11-12-2003 11:48									#381
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I have an idea, it's crazy but it might work.

We can start debating and polling the whole giving up a chokepoint deal. However in the meantime we can have a chat with CFC and tell them (regardless of how our internal discussion is going on) that sadly, the team seems to be voting against that proposal despite "a large part of the leadership being in favor". Being that our internal voting is not something neither we nor them can control, it may be taken as a sad but inevitable occurance. We can begin preliminary discussion about a possible compensation for the chokepoints. If this compensation looks like a suitable idea to both of us, then we keep it, if it looks like they end up being put down by it AND our poll is favorable to handing over Eq, then we can tell them that the poll swang around and that giving Eq won out by a small margin. If the poll does not pass then at least we warned them.

	11-12-2003 11:56									#382
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No matter what turns out we should let them know that the issue is being sharply debated amongst our team and even though we may personally agree with them on an issue, we still have to get our team to agree.

--Togas

	11-12-2003 11:58									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We keep them, they begrudgingly go along with it and internally begin plans to attack Poly once they have enough Riders. Why? Negotiations didn't give them what they ultimately wanted: Equality.

Now I know that some people don't like when the PTWDG is brought up in the ISDG, but this is sounding alot like the writting deal fiasco between RP and GoW. If we insist on keeping both cities, it would be akin to "negotiating from a position of power". They will accept it, but will not be happy with it. I would consider this a lesson learned.

	11-12-2003 12:08									#384
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Who thinks CFC will attack us reaardless of whether we give them either BoP, EQ or both?

	11-12-2003 12:13									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I have an idea, it's crazy but it might work. We can start debating and polling the whole giving up a chokepoint deal. However in the meantime we can have a chat with CFC and tell them (regardless of how our internal discussion is going on) that sadly, the team seems to be voting against that proposal despite "a large part of the leadership being in favor". Being that our internal voting is not something neither we nor them can control, it may be taken as a sad but inevitable occurance. We can begin preliminary discussion about a possible compensation for the chokepoints. If this compensation looks like a suitable idea to both of us, then we keep it, if it looks like they end up being put down by it AND our poll is favorable to handing over Eq, then we can tell them that the poll swang around and that giving Eq won out by a small margin. If the poll does not pass then at least we warned them.

Now we're talking about actually trying to win this issue. I like it.

Anyone else?

Oh, BF. I think they will not attack unless they have decided to exit the game early. That is what they would accomplish by attacking us.

	11-12-2003 12:47									#386
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I like MZ's idea, too - it's quite smart.

	11-12-2003 12:47									#387
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Who thinks CFC will attack us reaardless of whether we give them either BoP, EQ or both?

They may still attack us even if we give them both.

They WILL attack us if we give them neither.

	11-12-2003 12:56									#388
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I happen to like MZ's idea. For now, that sounds like a go.

	11-12-2003 13:20									#389
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Who thinks CFC will attack us reaardless of whether we give them either BoP, EQ or both?

poll it

	11-12-2003 17:32									#390
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Who thinks CFC will attack us reaardless of whether we give them either BoP, EQ or both?

I do.

The Rider is the most powerful offensive unit in the game. I refuse to believe that they will waste its small window of opportunity.

They know they are a 2nd rate civ.
Their only chance for equality, is to take a large chunk of Apolyton. They dont have to win the war... just take a chunk and call the war a draw.