13-11-2003 06:20									#331
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Well, all of those horsemen we're building "for later knight upgrades" might actually be useful afterall...

	13-11-2003 06:37									#332
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Great Letter, F-P, I'll tell Togas that we should send it as currently worded.

E_T

	13-11-2003 06:48									#333
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I like the tack that MZ chose in the chat. I fear that if we personally insult Goonie, we will not succeed in truly embarassing him, but instead there will be a tendencry for the rest of CFC to circle the wagons and defend one of their own. If anything, it is likely to backfire and cause them to become both more hostile toward Apolyton as well as even raising Goonie's popularity.

The tack that I think will work and will adequately display our displeasure is one which makes it clear that we need CLARITY from CFC when negotiating with them. It is not acceptable for practically THEIR ENTIRE CABINET to hold a chat with us and say they "agree" to a proposal, then send someone claiming to be the ambassador to us THREE WEEKS LATER telling us otherwise and demeaning the character of his own team's leadership in the chat.

We value our relationship with CFC and we do not wish to see CFC's foreign affairs disorganization damage that relationship. If CFC can come to an agreement on what they agree to and what they do not agree to and can make it clear what that agreement is and who is officially permitted to convey it to Apolyton, Apolyton is willing to listen to that message and that message carrier.

Until that happens, we honestly are finding it rather difficult to have any idea just what is and is not "official" coming out of CFC and who is and is not "official" representing CFC.

	13-11-2003 06:54									#334
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As for evil plans that might actually WORK, I think it might be possible to post the Goonie chatlog where he was demeaning the characters of the rest of his own team (or at least those sections of it) to the CFC e-mail distribution list that we send the save to each turn... that way we're sure it gets out and someone is likely to post it.

Our objective should not be to assault Goonie directly from the outside, which is likely to induce a common Fanikan to defend him. Rather, making public HIS OWN WORDS smearing the character of other members on his own team that members of CFC may like and respect would do far more damage to his reputation.

The e-mail distribution may not be the way to go, however. I'm open to suggestions on this. But trust me on this... I know what I'm talking about

	13-11-2003 09:41									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As for evil plans that might actually WORK, I think it might be possible to post the Goonie chatlog where he was demeaning the characters of the rest of his own team (or at least those sections of it) to the CFC e-mail distribution list that we send the save to each turn... that way we're sure it gets out and someone is likely to post it. The e-mail distribution may not be the way to go, however. I'm open to suggestions on this. But trust me on this... I know what I'm talking about

I'm one step ahead of you:

quote: Session Start: Wed Nov 12 15:44:49 2003 Session Ident: Octavian_X [15:44] [MasterZen] [Goonie] Unfortunately for APolyton, their pet is Fanatikou has no official clout in this departement any longer [15:45] [MasterZen] talking about you [15:45] [Octavian_X] Believe it or not, I do get that sentinment often. [15:45] [MasterZen] no offense but his attitude has been nothing short or rude and insulting [15:46] [MasterZen] if it had been any other team I would have likely kicked him out [15:55] [MasterZen] btw, is Goonie's ambassadorship comfirmed? [15:55] [MasterZen] I only sense trouble if he's the only one who's going to deal with us... [15:55] [Octavian_X] He's not even an ambassador. His term is set to begin on turn 136. [15:55] [MasterZen] well he's been acting like ambassador, heck, he said he was [15:56] [Octavian_X] Christ... [15:56] [MasterZen] I will send you the log of this chat because I doubt he'll post it himself [15:56] [Octavian_X] I'm gonna be back in half an hour. [15:56] [Octavian_X] Send it to me then. [15:56] [MasterZen] ok, I'll still be here [15:56] [MasterZen] e-mail? [15:56] [Octavian_X] thesim10987@msn.com [15:56] [MasterZen] ok Session Close: Wed Nov 12 16:54:47 2003

This was during that chat. I also happened to e-mail him the chat log. I do think we can of course get more specific. However, I want to see what happens. Goonie was visibly humilliated when OctX entered the room (see the Togas bit of the chat). I want to have a nice long chat with OctX next time he comes around to see what happens. That being said, if this crap continues I strongly support sending F-P's letter as is.

	13-11-2003 10:17									#336
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Hmmm, be careful about making OctX a focal point of this, on the off chance that Goonies statement was not simply his own opinion.

Where is boots, and Farn?

	13-11-2003 11:35									#337
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IF you like, I can edit that letter slightly to put in a clause about "not a personal attack, sometimes styles of approach and personalities can simply not mesh and we feel for the good of both" to make it look like less of an attack on him.

In the "real" ambassadors are recalled and reassigned at the host nation's request often enough - and for a lot less than Goonie pulled that time. This guy's power tripping and then some.

	13-11-2003 11:45									#338
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Goonie's attitude in RL would not have only netted him a dismissal it would have likely resulted in broken diplomatic relations. And if it were the 19th century, maybe even war.

	13-11-2003 12:00									#339
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I support sending F-P's letter AS IS. CFC needs to get a clue as to how damaging Goonie can be to our teams future cooperation.

	13-11-2003 12:12									#340
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The problem, in my view, is that CFC elects their ambassadors, which seems to give a character like Goonie a feeling of entitlement regarding setting policy for his team rather than acting merely as the negotiating and messenging instrument of a state he does not control.

Since they also elect what would ostensibly be Goonie's superiors, it creates conflicting lines of authority about just who has authority to make what decisions to to supervise on what negotiations and from where they derive that authority.

The powerchart of lines of authority for the CFC system, if you diagramed it, I'm sure would be a nightmare...

EDIT: It's worth mentioning that this is reason why I'm against electing our ministers and actually like the system where they are held directly accountable to the Consuls, who themselves can be recalled by the electorate at ANY time. Lines of authority are clear, Everyone knows who they report to and everyone knows that all lines of authority lead through a clear chain back to the general population.

Last edited by Arnelos on 13-11-2003 at 12:21

	13-11-2003 12:17									#341
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I'm willing to trust that the FAM can handle this one. I think MZ and WB have both done a fantastic job on this so far. As I've stated earlier, I think MZ's instincts both in his line of argument in the chat (about our need for CLARITY in terms of official messages and when CFC does or does not "agree" to sometimes) is exactly the message we need to send.

As for cutting Goonie off at the knees, MZ was ahead of my suggestion I think he's spot on with his instincts in this and I'm willing to trust that he and the FAM can do that job.

I'm willing to leave the matter of what to include from F-P's message or other material to send to CFC in the FAM's obviously very capable hands.

	13-11-2003 23:53									#342
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I agree with Arnelos, in that directly confronting CFC with a letter like that will only make things worse.

Think about all the things that team as a whole has done... there's no way they'd be able to rationally consider what we have to say and address the problem. They'd probably attack us with all 4 of their MIs after something like that.

If it was a team like CGN (or even GCA) then it would probably work. With a team like CFC or CDG all it would do is stir the pot even more.

	14-11-2003 00:57									#343
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

the problem is the people of CFC aren't going to this the same way we do. They'll see it as Poly overeacting when one of their people makes valid requests. CFC will believe they should rightfully have more land. From their POV they've done more of the fighting so should get at least an equal share.
I mean look at the Euro resentment when americans make claims about the 2nd world war.

Not that poly should give in to any demands we just shouldn't push too hard against Goonie as they'd see it as us bullying them.

As for Goonie is he really that bad? If we can get past the land dispute he may be alot more in favour of good relations with us than someone else so as to prove that he hasn't/wouldn't screw relations with poly. Also poly would pretty much own him, if he did anything we didn't like we could again claim he's screwing up relations perhaps in a more subtle way though.

	14-11-2003 02:53									#344
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Not that poly should give in to any demands we just shouldn't push too hard against Goonie as they'd see it as us bullying them.

Which is why I don't want to send them F-P letter just yet. One more chance until they piss us off completely

quote: As for Goonie is he really that bad? If we can get past the land dispute he may be alot more in favour of good relations with us than someone else so as to prove that he hasn't/wouldn't screw relations with poly. Also poly would pretty much own him, if he did anything we didn't like we could again claim he's screwing up relations perhaps in a more subtle way though.

The thing with Goonie is he has the diplomatic abilities of a rabid dog. Psychologicially he's the kind of guy who is always a pain to work with in group projects, usually is awol all the time, then comes back when everyone did the work, then starts b*tching why it wasn't done his way, etc. and that they should do it again. The problem is that these people are usually very verbally violent which makes some people afraid of countering them, which is what I suspect might happen to the CFC people when this moron is in a leadership position.

Plus, imagine the line he's using "we are not Apolyton's pet!, let's have balls to treat them as equals!". Nice populist stance, but will get them very little in substance. He thinks bullying will work. It won't.

	14-11-2003 08:08									#345
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IIRC, CFC is having a Presidential election. We may want to wait until their election is over, see who is elected, before we decide to send or not to send F_P's note.

	16-11-2003 07:05									#346
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Catching up on CFC FAM stuff for the last few days and wow....

My thoughts:

For the first few chats Goonie seemed to be trying some strong-arm diplomacy, and I thought I saw some nice little avoidances of pointed questions. Not what I would do, but perfectly fine. Then for the last chat he became a lot more belligerent, certainly a trait to be avoided by ANY official representative when dealing with another team, ESPECIALLY a close ally as we are.

How about, instead of a letter of protest, we try this:

we tell CFC recently there has been some confusion about what has been agreed by poll there re: issues such as the borders between Apolyton and CFC. Different officials have given conflicting information, and we would like to get the facts straight wherever possible. Thus, we should ask for a list of officials at CFC that is updated whenever there is a change, and what authority those officials have. For instance, at Apolyton the FAM, any Ambassador or Consul (and we should provide them with a list as well) should be trusted in talks. That may not be the case at CFC, and the Ambassadors may have some influence the President does not, for instance.

Thus we hope to avoid any confusions that have led to some delay in reaching decisions with CFC that would benefit both of us, when resolved.

If Goonie is confirmed to be Ambassador AND have the authority to negotiate as he has been doing, then at least we will not annoy him by questioning his authority, and we can get down to the serious (and difficult) business of getting a deal set (or just abandoning the deal for all we can get). If not, then we know who to deal with and if he turns up and gets insulted, we will quote the list of people and authorisations sent to us by CFC and tell him we are only going on what info we have been given. If he has a problem then he can take it, shove it up his a*s, sh*t it out and then eat it again. And then take it up with CFC at large, or whoever there sends us this list of authorised officials.

	16-11-2003 12:50									#347
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Catching up on CFC FAM stuff for the last few days and wow.... My thoughts: For the first few chats Goonie seemed to be trying some strong-arm diplomacy, and I thought I saw some nice little avoidances of pointed questions. Not what I would do, but perfectly fine. Then for the last chat he became a lot more belligerent, certainly a trait to be avoided by ANY official representative when dealing with another team, ESPECIALLY a close ally as we are. How about, instead of a letter of protest, we try this: we tell CFC recently there has been some confusion about what has been agreed by poll there re: issues such as the borders between Apolyton and CFC. Different officials have given conflicting information, and we would like to get the facts straight wherever possible. Thus, we should ask for a list of officials at CFC that is updated whenever there is a change, and what authority those officials have. For instance, at Apolyton the FAM, any Ambassador or Consul (and we should provide them with a list as well) should be trusted in talks. That may not be the case at CFC, and the Ambassadors may have some influence the President does not, for instance. Thus we hope to avoid any confusions that have led to some delay in reaching decisions with CFC that would benefit both of us, when resolved. If Goonie is confirmed to be Ambassador AND have the authority to negotiate as he has been doing, then at least we will not annoy him by questioning his authority, and we can get down to the serious (and difficult) business of getting a deal set (or just abandoning the deal for all we can get). If not, then we know who to deal with and if he turns up and gets insulted, we will quote the list of people and authorisations sent to us by CFC and tell him we are only going on what info we have been given. If he has a problem then he can take it, shove it up his a*s, sh*t it out and then eat it again. And then take it up with CFC at large, or whoever there sends us this list of authorised officials.

MrWhereItsAt,

It is obvious that you didn't read everything, considering you just suggested exactly what I did a full 2 days ago

That said, great minds think alike...

	16-11-2003 14:45									#348
	Tired of ads?

Where?

And what about it? Has the message been sent?

	17-11-2003 01:25									#349
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No messages have been sent as of yet. At least not to my knowledge.

	18-11-2003 07:13									#350
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Hmm - interesting stuff. I am catching up after being at a conference for a lot of last week.

MZ - you were a model of restraint - and I salute you.

Now guys - be honest - Goonie is really a panag dl, right? He has to be.

What you should also know is that Loonie pulled a similar stunt when the game was being set up. He passed himself of fas the official team rep, when in fact, that had not yet been decided at CFC.

You know what is an even bigger concern - you really have to wonder about the mental state of a team that would elect Loonie - that was an honest, albeit Freudian mistake - I mean Goonie - to any representative position, let alone ambassador to your closest and potentially most dangerous neighbour. The earlier comments about hoping the CFC leadership holds together would seem very relevant.

	29-11-2003 13:01									#351
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quote: OctX, Catchopolis is no more, as you probably have heard. GCA is on the run, and we fully expect them to torch and burn everything they own in the next few turns as our forces sweep after their retreating forces. We fear they are pulling their forces off and placing them on gallies. The screenshot you provided for us showed the new settler, which they will likely be loading, shortly, onto a galley. We also fear they will relocate to the islands south of CFC. We need you to keep watch on the southern shores for their galleys and to build galleys yourself, as we're going to have to fight them at sea or potentially invade their new island home to finish them off. Please meet us in chat ASAP for a better briefing on the situation. I'm sure that Trip will be better prepared to give you the details of the war. Also, with the war winding down, we seriously need to meet and draft a formal alliance and long-term peace agreement. We have begun new discussions in our forum and would be happy to arrange for a time to meet in the future to have a serious talk about the issue. I look forward to talking with you in the future. --Togas

	09-12-2003 12:17									#352
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I tried to talk with Chieftess earlier in the CFC embassy chatroom and asked her about where CFC's main army was (to get a feel for how close they were to BoP). Unfortunately, she was unwilling to divulge any information and told me to contact Zarn or Boots instead (neither of which were around).

I just recieved this PM from Zarn not too long ago:

quote: Poly-CFC relations I understand that you wanted to contact me. For chat I am available Tues (1pm to 11pm), Wed (5pm to 11pm), Thurs (1pm to 3pm; 10pm to 11pm), and Fri (5pm to 11pm). I hope you can make one of these times. I apoligize (sp? ) for our lack of diplomacy. Our ambassador seems to have disapeared. He was just elected not too long ago, too. Such a shame for him to leave without notice to anyone. No matter, I will handle diplomacy with your civilization as if I were the ambassador, so you should contact me directly via pm here or at CFC. Any of your citizens may do so. Actually you could have done that beforehand as well. I love receiving pms. Meanwhile, I am going to see if I can get you a slightly more active ambassador or put life back into the current one. Zarn, Foreign Affairs Minister of Fanatikou

I will send him a short polite PM in response thanking him for contacting me.

	09-12-2003 19:40									#353
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Interesting, so Goonie is MIA? Zarn sounds like a reasonable fellow. At least we can deal with someone vaguely rational.

-Arrian

	09-12-2003 23:04									#354
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THANK GOD!!!!




I would definitely prefer dealing with Zarn, he's a very reasonable fellow who I've talked with on occassion, definitely an OctX type of guy and not another Goonie.

	09-12-2003 23:34									#355
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Can someone from the FAM come up with a PM to send to Zarn?

The only thing I wanted to discuss with CT was where CFC's main army was. It would be rather odd and not-so-diplomatic to simply send him a PM asking him that after all this.

Plus I think NYE wanted us to have some contact with them. Maybe we don't bring up the BoP issue until our city is built, but I'm sure we have other things to talk with them about.

	10-12-2003 00:45									#356
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think we can express the question of their army location to them in terms of concern for their well-being. Say we've seen GCA pulling many of its forces west towards them, and we'd like to know if they have units in position to deal with the threat. Depending on how difficult they are in responding to that will also be a good gauge as to our near future relations with them

	10-12-2003 01:17									#357
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Arnelos and I are in chat with CFC at the moment.

Cheetah has made it known that there are at least 6 Pikes, 1 Spear and 5 offensive units (including the units we see) on their side of BoP. This is a much larger force than anticipated. GCA managed to destroy 1 Pike and 3 MIs heading for Port Blacksand. All three of them were destroyed on the same turn and CFC is unaware what did them in. Probably Horses.

We were also briefly discussing tech plans. CFC wants to buy Monotheism from CGN (and they would then give it to us). We should get a deal hammered out where we have CFC give us their gold while we research at a faster pace then give them the tech once we're done. It will help both of us. At the moment they are planning on doing Chivalry next (which CGN is doing right now) so we should address this topic soon.

Last edited by Trip on 10-12-2003 at 03:04

	10-12-2003 03:05									#358
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Part I

quote: Session Start: Tue Dec 09 11:56:30 2003 Session Ident: #demogame_cfc_embassy [11:56] * Now talking in #demogame_cfc_embassy [11:56] * Topic is ' 4Welcome to the Fanatikese Embassy - Trade Discussion - Joint Military Planning - Diplomatic Discussions ' [11:56] * Set by CivGeneral!~Simman198@2142b218. on Fri May 02 17:14:15 [12:00] *Cheetah* hi Trip [12:00] *Arnelos* I'm here, too [12:01] *Trip* hiya [12:01] *Trip* they don't care about you Arne ; [12:01] *Trip* [12:01] *Arnelos* lol [12:01] *Arnelos* I'm here because I need to meet more CFC people [12:02] *Cheetah* hehe [12:02] *Cheetah* well hello then [12:07] *Cheetah* i guess i should introduce myself to. i'm Justice of the Court of Fanatikou and ambassador to Netatolia [12:08] *Arnelos* Cheetah - we shared a job not too long ago [12:08] *Arnelos* I was our Ambassador to CGN before being elected Consul [12:09] *Cheetah* k [12:11] *Arnelos* so chief justice of the court, eh? [12:11] *Cheetah* btw, may i ask how many GCA units you have the count of at the moment? [12:11] *Cheetah* yup [12:13] *Arnelos* Trip may have a better idea of that than me, since he seems to think he knows how many units GCA has [12:13] *Cheetah* realy [12:13] *Arnelos* that said, the GCA fragment in the GCA/CFC area is probably very very small [12:13] *Arnelos* a few pikes, only one sighted horseman [12:13] *Cheetah* well we got a bit of knowledge of them [12:15] *Cheetah* they just managed to take out our forces heading for Port Blacksand, and though we don't know what is inside the city, we see a number of Pikes and the horse outside it [12:15] *Cheetah* but have anyone of them fled east to Dun na Anarchy? [12:15] *Arnelos* yes [12:15] *Arnelos* quite a number [12:16] *Arnelos* including their pike armyu [12:16] *Cheetah* hm k [12:16] *Arnelos* E_T, for one, believes they're intending to do a Dunkirk-style evacuation with galleys from Anarchy or Silk-city [12:16] *Arnelos* then send the survivors to the islands south of CFC [12:17] *Cheetah* i wonder how many galleys they have [12:17] *Arnelos* well, the one we trapped in the lake/sea is headed north up our coast [12:17] *Arnelos* we think it likely has the evacuated survivors of Lucky Harbor [12:18] *Arnelos* only one galley, so we can handle it if they land anywhere [12:18] *Cheetah* hm. interesting [12:18] *Cheetah* we have a galley in the lake as well now [12:18] *Arnelos* we figure they used that galley to evacuate Lucky Harbor with the idea to send the survivors through BoP and around to the CFC islands [12:18] *Cheetah* i think it should go for a hunt [12:18] *Trip* Cheetah: did you split up your army going after all those cities? [12:18] *Trip* and GCA destroyed what you had heading for Blacksand? [12:19] *Cheetah* they abandoned all their cities, but yes, or army was split [12:19] *Cheetah* we figured that they would put all their defense in Balance of Power and let Port Blacksand fall as easily as the others. We were wrong. [12:19] *Arnelos* you have any idea how big the GCA force that killed your army was? [12:20] *Cheetah* no [12:20] *Trip* how many units did you have going for Blacksand? [12:20] *Arnelos* Cheetah - actually, after GCA abandoned CATCHOPOLIS (on a hill) rather than defend it, we guessed they'd do the same with BoP... if they weren't going to defend Catch, they weren't going to defend anything [12:21] *Chieftess* [14:21] *Arnelos* E_T, for one, believes they're intending to do a Dunkirk-style evacuation with galleys from Anarchy or Silk-city -- You mean they're purposely exiling themselves? [12:21] *Cheetah* but it was the smallest part of our army. lets see... [12:21] *Arnelos* Chieftess - E_T, at least, believes so [12:23] *Trip* their Pike Army is probably in the silk city [12:23] *Trip* or near to it [12:23] *Trip* it's not in Anarchy [12:23] *Cheetah* hm [12:23] *Cheetah* 3 Med Infs and 1 Pike [12:24] *Cheetah* hm [12:25] *Cheetah* if they dont evacuate Port Blacksand it might require a bit of effort to take it [12:25] *Trip* all were destroyed on the same turn? [12:25] *Cheetah* yes [12:25] *Trip* hmmmm [12:25] *Trip* that's trouble [12:25] *Trip* adjacent to Blacksand? [12:26] *Cheetah* what? [12:27] *Trip* were those units adjacent to Blacksand when they were killed? [12:28] *Cheetah* yep [12:28] *Cheetah* hm [12:31] *Trip* that could be trouble [12:31] *Trip* at least 4 offensive units then [12:32] *Trip* plus that extra Horseman and 2 Pikes just west of the BoP site [12:32] *Cheetah* there are 3 more pikes and a spear you dont see one tile more west of those again [12:33] *Arnelos* heh... I was right about that [12:33] *Trip* was there a Pike showing in Blacksand when you moved next to it? [12:34] *Cheetah* yes. it had just arrived then [12:34] *Trip* so they've got quite a force over there [12:34] *Trip* 6 Pikes, 1 Spear, at least 5 offensive units [12:34] *Cheetah* apparantly [12:35] *Cheetah* GCA are fighting to the end and has nothing to lose... [12:36] * ShangMan has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [12:37] *Cheetah* hm. Have you ever won a fight against GCA btw? [12:37] *Arnelos* on offense or defense? [12:37] *Arnelos* we've NEVER won on defense [12:37] * ShangMan has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [12:38] *Cheetah* hm [12:38] *Cheetah* but you've won on offensive? [12:38] *Arnelos* they've killed so many numidian mercenaries with horsemen that's is sickening [12:38] *Arnelos* *that it's [12:39] *Trip* btw, are you guys going to play the save soon? [12:39] *Cheetah* yup [12:39] *Cheetah* will start in 20 min [12:39] *Trip* okay [12:39] *Trip* have you taken a look at the save yet? [12:40] *Cheetah* yes [12:40] *Cheetah* that is why we hold the save until now [12:41] *Cheetah* took some screens and have some discussion on the forums before we play it [12:41] *Arnelos* well, the more GCA units you kill, the better [12:41] *Trip* okay [12:42] *Arnelos* we've certainly been trying to kill as many as possible [12:42] *Cheetah* hehe of course [12:42] *Cheetah* but how many does they have on you side? [12:42] *Arnelos* we don't know... since we think they're evacuating them [12:42] *Trip* every time we get near them they run further [12:42] *Cheetah* any idea on the number of ships they have? [12:43] *Arnelos* not reallly [12:43] *Arnelos* there's at least one in the south [12:43] *Arnelos* the one that killed our galley [12:43] *Trip* I suspect they only have 2 total [12:43] *Trip* Arn: that one could be the one in the lake now [12:43] *Arnelos* Trip - could it have gotten that far? [12:43] *Trip* yep [12:43] *Arnelos* ok [12:43] *Trip* it's been 5 or so turns since then [12:44] *Cheetah* so outside the lake only 1 is confirmed? [12:44] *Trip* outside the lake none are confirmed :P [12:44] *Trip* I suspect they have 1 more outside though [12:44] *Cheetah* none? [12:44] *Cheetah* k [12:45] *Trip* I talked a bit with Boots the other day about you guys protecting that small island to your west from GCA [12:45] *Arnelos* Cheetah - we can't see everything [12:45] *Trip* if they do have Galleys outside of the lake then they may try to run there [12:45] *Trip* could be very troublesome if they end up with a Pike Army and a couple cities on that island [12:45] *Arnelos* that's what we think they might do... evacuate to the islands south of CFC [12:45] *Cheetah* yes [12:45] *Trip* perhaps you could station a few units on the island and keep a couple Galleys on watch for GCA ships? [12:46] *Cheetah* we are discussing that [12:46] *Cheetah* we are able to station units there in 3 turns. [12:46] *Trip* good [12:46] *Cheetah* but we are fearing that they might try to land right on our cities [12:47] *Cheetah* so some argue to not sending away any defensive units [12:47] *Arnelos* good point [12:47] *Arnelos* thing you need most are galleys [12:47] *Trip* yes [12:47] *Trip* it may be a good idea to put a few OFFENSIVE units on the island to attack anything that lands [12:47] *Trip* and keep the defensive units at home [12:47] *Trip* Galleys on watch to your south [12:49] *Cheetah* unfortunatly our production base are still suffering from the war with GCA [12:49] *Arnelos* indee [12:49] *Cheetah* we arent able to get all the units we need [12:49] *Arnelos* *indeed [12:49] *Trip* Galleys are probably most important [12:49] *Arnelos* which brings up a good point... I wonder how on EARTH GCA has produced all they have [12:49] *Trip* with more of them you don't have to have offensive OR defensive units [12:50] *Trip* no kidding [12:50] *Trip* 26 defensive units [12:50] *Trip* at least 15 offensive unist [12:50] *Trip* units [12:50] *Trip* and even a Market in Catchopolis [12:50] *Arnelos* and their home territory is mostly non-improved... so what tiles were they working?? [12:50] *Cheetah* hm [12:50] *Trip* probably forest [12:50] *Trip* their cities didn't grow all that fast [12:50] *Arnelos* perhaps [12:54] *Cheetah* About our tech-agreement; Are there any restrictions on how we can aquire Monotheism? [12:55] *Arnelos* you're going to get it from CGN? [12:55] *Trip* as long as you guys trade it to us once you get it, then I don't think so [12:55] *Cheetah* good [12:55] *Arnelos* yeah, I can't see it mattering [12:55] *Cheetah* i believe so yes [12:58] * ShangMan has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [12:59] * ShangMan has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:00] *Trip* Cheetah: what do you have in mind for future tech consideration for CFC? [13:00] *Cheetah* what i think cfc should research after Monotheism? [13:00] *Trip* well, what you were planning on doing [13:01] *Trip* if you do buy Monotheism from CGN then you'll have to figure out something to do next pretty soon [13:02] *Cheetah* i believe we will start on Chivalry [13:02] *Cheetah* what are you researching atm? [13:02] *Trip* Invention still [13:03] *Cheetah* k [13:03] *Cheetah* many turns left? [13:03] *Trip* quite a few I think [13:03] *Trip* 20 or so [13:04] *Cheetah* k [13:04] *Arnelos* we're doing a 40-turn research to build cash [13:05] *Cheetah* build cash? how much are you getting in and how much do you have? [13:05] *Arnelos* enough to make the next tech research faster [13:06] *Cheetah* hehe [13:06] * Cheetah can guess what that next tech would be [13:08] * FortyJ_At_Work has joined #demogame_CFC_Embassy [13:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +oa FortyJ_At_Work FortyJ_At_Work [13:08] *FortyJ_At_Work* 04,00° 05,00 Have no fear... 04,00FortyJ 05,00 is here! 04,00° [13:09] *Trip* no fear from me [13:09] *Arnelos* yeah, not scared [13:09] *FortyJ_At_Work* dangit [13:10] *FortyJ_At_Work* I was really hoping to startle some of you [13:10] * Rubarb has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:10] *Cheetah* hehe [13:10] * Trip puts on his fear face just for FortyJ [13:10] *FortyJ_At_Work* that's better [13:11] *Arnelos* but didn't you want to be the guy who took people's fear AWAY? [13:11] *FortyJ_At_Work* depends on who I'm talking to 3; 4) 1 [13:11] * Rubarb has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:11] *FortyJ_At_Work* which brings me to this: who are you? [13:11] *Arnelos* I'm a Consul of Apolyton [13:12] *Arnelos* we have 3 of us [13:12] *FortyJ_At_Work* I don't recognize the nick // pleasure to meet you. [13:12] *Arnelos* yeah, I don't think I've ever hung out in the CFC areas before [13:12] *FortyJ_At_Work* that's ok. I don't hang out here much anymore either 3; 4) 1 [13:12] *Arnelos* only CFC people I know are Chieftess, OctX, and Zarn [13:12] *Trip* and Goonie [13:12] *Arnelos* I've actually never been in a chat with Goonie [13:13] *Trip* ahh [13:13] *Cheetah* you dont know me? [13:13] *Trip* or boots or CG? [13:13] *Arnelos* though I certainly know him by reputation ;p [13:13] *Arnelos* I know of several CFC people by reputation [13:13] *Trip* definitely CG [13:13] *Arnelos* CivGeneral, bootstoots, you Cheetah [13:13] *Cheetah* what. i have a reputation? [13:13] *Arnelos* but not much other than names, to be honest [13:14] *Arnelos* CivGeneral is the one with the reputation, yes [13:14] *Arnelos* Trip - you still winning the Consul election 24-19? [13:15] *Trip* I will check in a bit [13:15] *Arnelos* if so, it looks like by tomorrow that the 3 Consuls of Apolyton will be notyoueither, myself, and Trip [13:15] *Arnelos* it seems that both CFC and Apolyton are largely replacing their leaderships at the same time [13:16] *Arnelos* or at least reshuffling [13:16] *Arnelos* so I'd like to get to know more of you if I can [13:17] *Arnelos* speaking of which, I haven't talked to Zarn in ages... where is he, anyhow? [13:18] *Cheetah* he's foreign minister [13:18] *Trip* yes, the election is still 24 to 19 [13:18] *Cheetah* and he just spoke to trip iirc [13:18] *Trip* yes, I got a PM from him [13:18] *FortyJ_At_Work* have you guys met everyone in the MSDG? [13:18] *Trip* I sent him one back telling him that someone from our team would contact him soon [13:20] *Arnelos* as I said, I don't know very many people in your MSDG [13:20] *Arnelos* really only OctX and Chieftess, and Zarn [13:21] *Trip* I know everyone [13:21] *FortyJ_At_Work* sorry... I meant, has Apolyton met all the civs in the game? [13:21] *Trip* well, who has ever been in chat [13:21] *Arnelos* ah [13:21] *Arnelos* yes [13:21] *Arnelos* so have you now, I believe [13:22] *FortyJ_At_Work* yes [13:24] *FortyJ_At_Work* one sec [13:24] *Arnelos* we were trying to work a deal to give CGN contact with you, but they turned us down since they had a suicide galley [13:25] *Arnelos* so you got contact just as quickly [13:26] *FortyJ_At_Work* apparently [13:26] *FortyJ_At_Work* do you mind me asking what your relationship with the western powers is? [13:26] *Arnelos* if you reciprocate [13:27] *FortyJ_At_Work* brb [13:28] *Cheetah* recipocate? * Cheetah finds his dictionary * [13:30] *Chieftess* If Internet Exploder weren't locking up, I'd point you to www.dictionary.com with the definition [13:30] * Rubarb has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:30] * Arnelos finds this somewhat amusing [13:31] * Chieftess has quit IRC (Quit: REBOOT: Don't you just love it when Internet Exploder insists on crashing? ) [13:31] * Rubarb has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:32] *FortyJ_At_Work* back [13:32] *Trip* welcome back [13:32] *FortyJ_At_Work* so we're talking about relationships with the west, right? [13:32] *Arnelos* [13:32] *Arnelos* you asked, yes [13:33] *FortyJ_At_Work* good [13:33] *Arnelos* *FortyJ_At_Work* do you mind me asking what your relationship with the western powers is? [13:33] *Arnelos* *Arnelos* if you reciprocate

	10-12-2003 03:05									#359
	Increase Your PM Length

Part II:

quote: [13:33] *Arnelos* *FortyJ_At_Work* brb [13:33] *Arnelos* *Cheetah* recipocate? * Cheetah finds his dictionary * [13:33] *FortyJ_At_Work* ack... I'm being PMed [13:34] *FortyJ_At_Work* rather IMed *-still a little new to the lingo [13:34] *FortyJ_At_Work* ok [13:35] *FortyJ_At_Work* as you have guessed, we just recently met with CGN [13:36] *FortyJ_At_Work* they wish to trade with us, and become friendly, but as they are at war with GWT, that friendship may come at the cost of losing a potential friendship with GWT [13:36] *FortyJ_At_Work* plus, we do not wish to accidentally befriend someone that our brethren in the north consider an enemy [13:36] *Arnelos* we've seen something similar, both CGN and GWT seem to wait frienship on the terms that we not befriend the other [13:36] *FortyJ_At_Work* so we are approaching you to seek your counsel [13:37] *Arnelos* that said, we know for a fact that CGA and GWT have been very friendly [13:38] * Chieftess has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:38] * ChanServ sets mode: +h Chieftess [13:39] *Trip* he means GCA and GWT [13:39] *FortyJ_At_Work* right [13:39] *Arnelos* my bad, typo [13:39] *Cheetah* figured that. i was wondering why you said GCA was very friendly :P [13:39] *Arnelos* as I meant to say, GCA and GWT have been quite friendly [13:39] *Arnelos* to each OTHER [13:40] *Cheetah* i understood that [13:40] *Trip* hehe [13:40] *Arnelos* We've attempted to be friendly with both GWT and CGN [13:40] *Arnelos* CGN has been more responsive [13:40] *Arnelos* but both are at least marginally friendly [13:41] *FortyJ_At_Work* that about sums up our relationships as well [13:41] *Arnelos* We suspect that GCA has the ear of GWT and GWT is likely buying into what GCA may be telling them about CFC and Apolyton. It is a concern. [13:41] *FortyJ_At_Work* although GWT has probably been a little more icy than what you have experienced [13:41] *FortyJ_At_Work* probably because of our blood-feud with GCA 3; 4) 1 [13:41] *Arnelos* most certainly [13:42] *FortyJ_At_Work* it is definitely a concern [13:42] *Arnelos* it's possible that GWT could gift GCA a city on their continent to keep them alive, though I think Mongoose201 would object if the purpose of this was to cause perpetual war weariness [13:42] *FortyJ_At_Work* I understand you've experienced a handful of GCA's "luck" with the RNG? [13:42] *Arnelos* heh [13:43] *Arnelos* indeed we have [13:43] *FortyJ_At_Work* as have we all [13:43] *Arnelos* they've killed a sickening number of numidian mercenaries with horsemen [13:43] *Arnelos* guarded by catapults I might add [13:43] *FortyJ_At_Work* impressive [13:43] *Arnelos* I think the count is up to 8 or 9 last I saw [13:43] *Chieftess* hmm... I wonder if someone neutral could look at the save in a hex editor. [13:43] *FortyJ_At_Work* I guess you weren't informed that they were permitted to mod the game to enhance their units? [13:44] *Chieftess* There's a line (don't know if it works in MP) where you can see if the save has been reloaded. [13:44] *Arnelos* (chuckle) [13:44] *Arnelos* We've been looking at ways to proove they've been cheating for a long time now, I will admit [13:44] *Chieftess* Has the save game grown quite a bit in Gamecatcher encounters? [13:44] *Arnelos* Mongoose201 has already looked at their saves with his own limited abilities to discern what is afoot, he agrees the situation is highly suspicious [13:44] *Chieftess* i.e., when they attack, does the save grow 1,000 bytes or so faster? [13:44] * ShangMan has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:45] *Arnelos* Chieftess - I do not know [13:45] *FortyJ_At_Work* well, no matter [13:45] *Arnelos* I don't believe we or Mongoose has looked at that, specifically [13:45] *Arnelos* We have had Mongoose checking their saves... as far as he can tell, everything works out... we suspect they are reloading, at the least [13:45] *FortyJ_At_Work* I'm celebrating when they finally die [13:45] * ShangMan has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:46] *FortyJ_At_Work* drinks will be on me everynoe [13:46] *FortyJ_At_Work* *everyone [13:46] *Cheetah* hehe [13:46] *Arnelos* [13:46] *Arnelos* much of Apolyton will drink to that [13:46] *Trip* [13:46] *FortyJ_At_Work* so, I think it's safe to say that GWT is likely allying with GCA (either directly or in spirit) [13:47] *Trip* we're hoping that GCA doesn't mysteriously end up with Chivalry [13:47] *Arnelos* we believe it's quite likely that they have... but when GCA dies, they're going to need a new foreign policy [13:47] *FortyJ_At_Work* and therefore, it would be in our mutual interest to aid CGN as much as possible [13:47] *Arnelos* Forty - quite possibly, we've been seeking a very friendly relationship with CGN [13:48] *Arnelos* I was our ambassador to them before becoming Consul, so I know a thing or two about that [13:48] *Arnelos* [13:48] *Arnelos* The thing we're honestly worried about is that our Mil Strength to GWT is weak, but we are strong to CGN [13:49] *Arnelos* if GWT invades and conquers CGN, the ISDG is over [13:49] *FortyJ_At_Work* that could be misleading [13:49] *Arnelos* it could be [13:49] *FortyJ_At_Work* GWT could have lots of horsemen [13:49] *FortyJ_At_Work* and CGN could have pikes [13:49] *FortyJ_At_Work* although, let's just hope those horsemen weren't trained by GCA [13:50] *Arnelos* indeed [13:50] *Chieftess* yeah, GCA has some strange horses indeed... [13:50] *Chieftess* Maybe they're really elephants in disguise. [13:51] *Arnelos* the sheer number of GCA *elite* horses and Great Leaders is cause enoug for suspicion, yes [13:51] *Arnelos* heh... they're no elephants... they die easily enough when they're on defense [13:52] *FortyJ_At_Work* any idea on how many galleys GCA has? ...and where they might be headed? [13:52] *Arnelos* we've killed a whole ton of GCA horsemen and pikemen [13:52] *Arnelos* differing opinions on that, since we don't know for sure [13:52] *Arnelos* best guess of mine is that that they have 2-4 galleys, probably 3 [13:53] *Arnelos* 1 is in the lake [13:53] * ShangMan has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:53] *Arnelos* the other 1-2, mabye 3, are south of GCA [13:53] *FortyJ_At_Work* probably attempting an end-around maneuver? [13:53] *Arnelos* a few on our team believe they are loading up whatever they can carry to evacuate to the CFC islands, others believes they're merely ferrying forces between Silk-city and BlackSand [13:53] *FortyJ_At_Work* although I suspect that at least one of them has a settler that may not ever touch land again [13:54] *FortyJ_At_Work* just keep sailing around perpetually at war [13:54] * ShangMan has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:54] *Trip* however, they can't go far though [13:54] *Arnelos* Forty - mongoose would not let CDG use that tactic of the settler on a galley when GCA complained about it... I doubt he'd like GCA use it [13:54] *FortyJ_At_Work* ShangMan's doin' the hokey-pokey or something [13:54] *Trip* they can't cross over to the other continent, you guys have them cut off on the west, we can get them from the east [13:55] *Arnelos* and no amount of reloading will guarantee that their galley doesn't sink in the ocean [13:55] *FortyJ_At_Work* true, but they could head to the polar caps [13:55] *Arnelos* polar caps are not coastal in Civ3 [13:56] *FortyJ_At_Work* oh yes [13:56] *Arnelos* they'd still sink [13:56] *FortyJ_At_Work* good point [13:56] *FortyJ_At_Work* but if GWT gets to navigation, we'd never find that galley [13:56] *Arnelos* only option they really have is to just stand and die or try to run to those islands near you guys [13:56] *Trip* it's a long ways to Navigation [13:57] *Arnelos* either way, the galley itself will get pinned in by our gallies headed south and any you build near your capital... they lost BoP, so they can't have a galley enter the lake anymore [13:57] *Trip* we'll have driven them off of our side of the continent in the next 6-8 turns probably [13:57] *Trip* maybe more if they continue to retreat [13:57] *FortyJ_At_Work* they've got one more stronghold on our side [13:58] *FortyJ_At_Work* but it will take some doing to drive them from our shores [13:58] *FortyJ_At_Work* but, we'll get it done [13:58] * VJTD3 has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:58] *Arnelos* well, I need to take care of errands in RL, so I'll be back to chat later [13:58] *Arnelos* good talking to you all [13:59] *Cheetah* cya [13:59] *FortyJ_At_Work* cya [13:59] * VJTD3 has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [13:59] *Trip* yes [13:59] *Trip* it appears as though Blacksand may be tough to crack [13:59] * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_AWAY [13:59] *Trip* you should try to eliminate as many of their forces isolated outside of the city as you can [13:59] *Trip* they have at least 6 Pikes, 1 Spear and 5 offensive units on your side [14:02] *FortyJ_At_Work* yeah... we've been mopping up some of their forces in the west [14:02] *FortyJ_At_Work* and we've got some fresh troops hungry for the kill heading east as we speak [14:03] *Trip* good [14:03] *Trip* as I was telling some of your teammates earlier investing in a few Galleys now that it looks like GCA is taking to the sea may be a good idea [14:04] *FortyJ_At_Work* we'll have to [14:04] *FortyJ_At_Work* especially if they do get to that island and establish a foothold there [14:04] *FortyJ_At_Work* we don't want them raiding our coastline [14:05] *FortyJ_At_Work* fortunately, they will have a rather diminished productive capacity [14:05] *FortyJ_At_Work* so, with their "luck", the odds should be more even [14:05] *FortyJ_At_Work* 3: 4) 1 [14:05] *Trip* hehe [14:05] *Trip* if you can get just 2 or 3 Galleys in your southern waters then none of their troop transports would make it at all [14:05] *Cheetah* but if the hold all the tiles on the smallest island we wont be able to touch them! [14:06] *Trip* true... [14:06] *Trip* which is why it's important to get those Galleys out fast as possible [14:07] *FortyJ_At_Work* but if that's all they have, who cares [14:07] *Trip* they can stay at war with us forever [14:07] *FortyJ_At_Work* you're talking about an island with 2 mountains and 2 tundra tiles [14:07] *FortyJ_At_Work* or close to that [14:07] *FortyJ_At_Work* true, that would be bad [14:07] *Trip* yes [14:07] *Cheetah* its only the war weariness that troubles me [14:07] *Trip* all they would need is 4 units [14:07] *Trip* or 1 city and 3 units... 2 Galleys full [14:07] *Trip* agreed Chieftess [14:07] *Cheetah* we could easily make sure they wont be able to hurt us. [14:07] *Trip* err, Cheetah, not Chieftess [14:08] *FortyJ_At_Work* heh [14:08] *Cheetah* but the war weariness are not that easy to stop :/ [14:08] *FortyJ_At_Work* a little freudian slip? [14:08] *Trip* nahhh [14:08] *Trip* I pressed tab too soon and the ch+tab turned into Chieftess instead of Cheetah [14:08] *Cheetah* hehe [14:08] *Trip* how long before you have 1 Galley which can watch that small island? [14:08] *Cheetah* i know that one [14:09] * Bootstoots has joined #demogame_cfc_embassy [14:09] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Bootstoots [14:09] * Bob has joined #demogame_cfc_Embassy [14:09] *Cheetah* Bootstoots [14:09] *Trip* hiya boots [14:09] *FortyJ_At_Work* not sure [14:09] *FortyJ_At_Work* I no longer see the saves 3: 4( 1 [14:09] *FortyJ_At_Work* rather 3: 4) 1 [14:09] *FortyJ_At_Work* 3; 4) 1 [14:09] *Trip* haha [14:09] *Trip* does anyone know [14:09] *Cheetah* huh? [14:09] *Trip* Cheetah, boots? [14:09] *FortyJ_At_Work* anyway... I need to return to work [14:10] *Trip* okay [14:10] *Cheetah* k [14:10] *Trip* thanks for stopping by FortyJ [14:10] *Bootstoots* what do you need to know? [14:10] *FortyJ_At_Work* cheetah - can you post a log of this chat? [14:10] *Cheetah* i will [14:10] * Bob has left #demogame_cfc_Embassy [14:10] *Cheetah* we have a galley ready as we speak [14:11] *Trip* in the water? [14:13] *Chieftess* That's usually where galleys are... [14:13] *Bootstoots* (they could be in the city, CT) [14:13] *Chieftess* which is in the harbor, on the water [14:13] *Chieftess* [14:13] *Chieftess* ok, maybe in a drydock, but still... [14:14] *Chieftess* if you abandon a city with a galley in it, the galley will disappear. [14:14] *Trip* :P [14:14] *Trip* in any case [14:14] *Cheetah* they are putting on the last stroke of paint now :P [14:14] *Trip* (obviously) be sure to head that thing east [14:14] * FortyJ_At_Work has quit IRC (Quit: ) [14:15] *Trip* you can probably catch any GCA Galleys near the tip of your side of the continent [14:15] *Cheetah* east? i was thinking of sending it up north to discover some shroud around gwt's land... [14:15] *Trip* that works too [14:15] *Cheetah* :P

	10-12-2003 04:14									#360
	Remove this text

This chat should have been posted in the correspondence thread with only a summary here!


Anyway, draft border proposal to CFC (note that this does not bring up the BoP issue as that will be agreed in another deal)

quote: Apolyton - Fanatikou Official Border Treaty In order to reaffirm the everlasting friendship of our both nations, as well as to guarantee the security of our territories within our common continent, the people of Apolyton and Fantikou hereby agree to the following: 1) A land border shall be established and respected within the continent. All territory located west of the two chokepoints shall be awarded to Fanatikou while all land located to the east of the two chokepoints shall be awarded to Apolyton. 2) Any offshore islands existing or to be found shall be claimed by the civilization who's territory, as determined by this treaty, is located closest. 3) The status of cities in the tile directly east or west of the chokepoints shall be determined under a separate agreement. With the hope of securing peace among us, this treaty is hereby ratified by both parties. -Apolyton -CFC

I want to send this ASAP so in case Goonie comes back now we'll have a written agreement and he can't talk crap anymore.

-MZ