02-06-2003 20:16									#61
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True as well, Rothy.

	02-06-2003 20:19									#62
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No Boddy, that is not true and quite unproven for that matter.

	02-06-2003 20:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy The Problem with Gays adopting is that it could influence the sexuality of the child.

I doubt it. Homosexuality isn't something that one's environment dictates.

question for you homophobes... do you know any gay parents? I do. They are good parents. IMO, in terms of parenting, a child will grow up all right if the parents are loving and supportive, regardless of sexual orientation or marital status.

There enough bad parents out there that are straight and/or married.

	02-06-2003 20:23									#64
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quote: Homosexuality isn't something that one's environment dictates.

Oh right. Perhaps we can make a test for it at birth, and inform willing adoptees of the result? After all, some parents may have a preference for straight children.

Shouldn't their preferences be taken into account?

Gay adoption just seems to be an extension of the gay rights movement, rather than being an extension of caring for children.

	02-06-2003 20:25									#65
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Bods, if your points were backed by any kind of real-world experience, and not prejudice, then I might consider them.

	02-06-2003 20:25									#66
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quote: Gay adoption just seems to be an extension of the gay rights movement, rather than being an extension of caring for children.

I really don't think so.

	02-06-2003 20:31									#67
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Boddington, do you think you could choose to be gay if you wanted to?

Heterosexuals cannot change their sexual orientation no more than homosexuals can change their sexual orientation.

As for the right wing meaning of family values that seeks to exclude homosexuals -- I agree that is the meaning of their view of family values.

I'm just arguing that society needs to change the definition of family so that homosexuals can be included. There are several different forms of family within one culture, and between different cultures.

	02-06-2003 20:39									#68
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Boddington, do you think you could choose to be gay if you wanted to? Heterosexuals cannot change their sexual orientation no more than homosexuals can change their sexual orientation. As for the right wing meaning of family values that seeks to exclude homosexuals -- I agree that is the meaning of their view of family values. I'm just arguing that society needs to change the definition of family so that homosexuals can be included. There are several different forms of family within one culture, and between different cultures.

And not one mention of the children involved.

You obviously see this as a homosexual matter rather than a child-protection one.

	02-06-2003 20:40									#69
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Fez, you may roll your eyes and play the mindless 'where's your proof' card to everything but in this case it's all too easy for you to revert to that. I imagine such a case is difficult to get 'proof' of since only recently have people started to campaign for this.

If it can be shown that a childs being adopted by Homosexual couples has no influence on the Childs Sexuality and a more or less normal percentage of them go onto be Homosexual when adults , then I would back the idea.

When considering Sexuality it's a serious issue, and subjecting a child to an envirnoment which could confuse the issue IS harmful whether or not it allows an extension of human rights, so you (Fez and co) are the ones who need to prove your claims to us doubters firstly.

	02-06-2003 20:43									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's And not one mention of the children involved. You obviously see this as a homosexual matter rather than a child-protection one.

We do not yet know how sexual orientation develops -- there are a few different theories. So how do you know if sexual orientation is determined by environment that the child is raised in?

	02-06-2003 20:45									#71
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I'd rather not take that risk.

	02-06-2003 20:47									#72
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Heterosexuals cannot change their sexual orientation no more than homosexuals can change their sexual orientation.

That's incorrect, Fun. Your sexuality isn't written in stone at birth, it's a living, developing thing. Given the right input, you could become straight and I could become gay.
You can see the evidence in prisons, polar expeditions and submarines where hetero men learn to appreciate things they would otherwise not have been involved in. It goes beyond the mere gender preference as well - to use the extreme example, people who were sexually abused as children are more likely to abuse their own, etc.

	02-06-2003 20:56									#73
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I am inclined to disagree with you monk. I don't think my sexual orientation could change.

And rothy, then why make such statements if you have no proof?

	02-06-2003 20:59									#74
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Rothy, Spink,

1) Even if the other children at school discover that Jackie has two mothers, won't you say there's a good chance she'll still be better off with them than she'd be in the orphanage or on the street in some obscure third world location?

2) Regarding the "teased in school" point, doesn't your view collide with your feeling of how legislation should be created? I mean, if we start making laws so they fit our prejudices, we really are on a slippery slope.

This was one of the reasons my country allowed for same-sex partnerships back in the eighties, even if the majority of the population opposed it. Today, the law has helped public acceptance of homosexuality greatly and is widely supported by politicians and people alike, even in not-so-tolerant-as-we'd-have-you-to-believe Denmark.

	02-06-2003 21:04									#75
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Fez,

I don't think my sexual orientation could change.

Why should your sexual preferences be unchangable when it's obvious that your preferences in people, food, wine, music, literature and everything else change severely during the years?

(Edit: My spelling is atrocious today.)

	02-06-2003 21:10									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Fez, I don't think my sexual orientation could change. Why should your sexual preferences be unchangable when it's obvious that your preferences in people, food, wine, music, literature and everything else change severely during the years? (Edit: My spelling is atrocious today.)

They have nothing to do with each other. I am sorry but it won't change.

	02-06-2003 21:21									#77
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Fez,

They have nothing to do with each other. I am sorry but it won't change.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your response, but I can't really understand your viewpoint if you don't elaborate on your claim and tell me wherein the differences lie between your sexual preferences and the ones I mentioned, or reply to a point of mine in some other way. A one line post merely stating your opinion won't be sufficient, I'm afraid.

	02-06-2003 21:21									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Fez, I don't think my sexual orientation could change. Why should your sexual preferences be unchangable when it's obvious that your preferences in people, food, wine, music, literature and everything else change severely during the years? (Edit: My spelling is atrocious today.)

Sexual orientation is on a different caliber than food preferences and so forth.

	02-06-2003 21:33									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Fez, They have nothing to do with each other. I am sorry but it won't change. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your response, but I can't really understand your viewpoint if you don't elaborate on your claim and tell me wherein the differences lie between your sexual preferences and the ones I mentioned, or reply to a point of mine in some other way. A one line post merely stating your opinion won't be sufficient, I'm afraid.

A one line post in this instance is enough. And what do you know? Excuse me.. I am the one here that would know. I can't change my sexuality like I change my food tastes. So your statement is inaccurate.

	02-06-2003 21:35									#80
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Edit - a strange kind of double post. Nevermind.

Last edited by Monk on 02-06-2003 at 21:44

	02-06-2003 21:40									#81
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The differences are there. They exist. To say that the ones you mentioned and sexual orientation is similar, is entirely inaccurate. Get a grip on reality. You know nothing about what it is to be gay. You cannot change. A one line post? My post was two lines. So get real. And this one was even longer.

	02-06-2003 21:56									#82
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"The differences are there. They exist."

Hey Fez, you know, maybe you're right! I'm not stubborn or anything, I'm prepared to change my mind any time, given sufficient facts and arguments to do so. The thing is, though, I won't know if you're right before you begin arguing your case in another way than short remarks stating what you feel. I don't have any way of knowing why you feel it and why you might be right before you explain that.

Honestly, I think you should take the "get a grip on reality" back. I might have offended you or others with my opinions on the case, but I think you'll realize that was never the intent.

It's correct I don't know - first hand - what it's like to be gay, but I think you should remember I'm not really targetting gays here. I'm talking about the general human sexuality with which we all have experiences, not what it's like to be gay.

(Edit: Now my grammar is atrocious. Will it ever end?)

	02-06-2003 22:03									#83
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How the hell can I state my argument in any way differently? I am saying all there is to say about the subject. I can't change my sexual orientation. I don't know how I could elaborate on that. That is how it is.

	02-06-2003 22:11									#84
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I guess that now, all I'm saying is that if you're unable to elaborate, that's OK. But don't throw derogatory remarks across the Atlantic just because I happen to disagree with you on a statement you're unable to back up.

	02-06-2003 22:13									#85
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Unable to back up? Why don't you start backing up your bald headed assumptions?

	02-06-2003 22:18									#86
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A lot of heterosexuals do not understand homosexuals because instead of making an effort to understand, they resort to fear-mongering by saying we are trying to convert children into becoming gay through adoptions.

Or they lump sexual orientation in the same caliber with food preferences or music preferences.

	02-06-2003 22:27									#87
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Fez,

Well, if you want to, you could read my post of 02-06-2003 17:47. What I'm saying is basically that if sexuality and sexual preferences don't change like I think they do, people like you and Mr. Fun have to explain why the sexual behaviour that I describe occurs anyway.

And even if you don't accept this as a valid argument - I guess the risk is pretty high, as you think you've said everything there is to say about the issue already - then there's one point that still stands: I still haven't thrown a derogatory remark in your face.

	02-06-2003 22:32									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Fez, Well, if you want to, you could read my post of 02-06-2003 17:47. What I'm saying is basically that if sexuality and sexual preferences don't change like I think they do, people like you and Mr. Fun have to explain why the sexual behaviour that I describe occurs anyway. And even if you don't accept this as a valid argument - I guess the risk is pretty high, as you think you've said everything there is to say about the issue already - then there's one point that still stands: I still haven't thrown a derogatory remark in your face.

I don't think I understand your question.

You are asking that if sexual orientation does not change, then why do we behave as homosexuals?

	02-06-2003 22:34									#89
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Monk, could you be a little more clear about that.. I am a bit confused. What exactly is it you are asking? Sorry english is not my first language.

	02-06-2003 22:42									#90
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OK, sorry if I've been unclear.

1) If your sexual preferences can't be changed and we're born the way we are, how do you explain the instances where sexual preferences have indeed changed?

2) If Mr. Fun had lived his entire life with women and only women, would he still be gay in the sense that he wouldn't find women attractive? And in the same way, wouldn't I have been with a man?

3) What is the difference between my sexual preferences and all other sets of preferences that change over time?