03-06-2003 05:44									#121
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I am sorry but I am still a little bit impacient.

Also by point taken, it doesn't necessarily mean he has a point.. I am just it has been noted. I later noted that same point as irrelevant to the discussion.

Okay in my case it won't change. I like guys.. and why is that a big deal for some people?

	03-06-2003 05:46									#122
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Because the puritans that founded the United States like to spout off about "traditional family values" and a book they seem to think is greater than all other books in the world for no particular reason.

	03-06-2003 05:52									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Fez, ........ A one line post merely stating your opinion won't be sufficient, I'm afraid.

Do you realize you left yourself open for a really long post stating his opinion?

	03-06-2003 05:57									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Sexual "preferences"? How about sexual orientation. Sorry no, sexual orientation cannot change and there are no true instances of that ever occurring. Sexual preferences? You mean sexual orientation. Being gay is like being striaght. There are no differences there.

That's very dogmatic, and also very wrong. I know many people who changed their sexual orientation. Of course you may raise the canard that "they were not gay / straight in the first place", but then I ask: What use is there building this construct called sexual orientation that seems to mean nothing more than whatever you are doing now?

	03-06-2003 07:03									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander That's very dogmatic, and also very wrong.

I would like to know why it is wrong.

quote: I know many people who changed their sexual orientation.

Okay maybe I will concede a small point here.. but I am talking about myself. I cannot change. I don't know if these people you know are being honest to themselves. But I don't care as I don't know them.

Or maybe they are bisexual.

quote: What use is there building this construct called sexual orientation that seems to mean nothing more than whatever you are doing now?

It is the way I am. There is nothing I can do about it. I can't change.

	03-06-2003 07:12									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Fez: I have a friend who is gay, and before I met him he was married for over 5 years... to a girl! Are you saying that he never really was straight and that he was just deluding himself? I never knew him before so I can't say. Yet is not possible that all people are asexual and that everyone can be attracted to both sexes? Could it not be possible that, since we can be attracted to both sexes, that some outside factor ultimately determines are taste in sex? Pretty much in the same way as our taste in foods, clothing, movies, games, etc. are governed? I think that all sexuality is an aquired taste and that it has nothing to do with 'nature' but with the humane gift of choice. What governs that choice, however, is not always left up to the chooser.

This is likely a case of a closeted man who did not realize he was gay, or who repressed who he really was and wanted to comform to our homophobic society by marrying a woman.

I vouch that the guy you mentioned was always gay while he dated, and then married the woman. There are a lot of older gay men who in previous years, felt they had to marry to conform, or simply denied their own self identity. Then later, they end up divorcing after having cheated on their wife by having discrete sex with other men.

Your posts just reinforce my belief that many heterosexuals can never understand the nature of what it is like to be homosexual.

And Bod -- there is nothing corrupt about being an avowed homosexual.

	03-06-2003 07:23									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I would like to know why it is wrong.

Becaue you said sexual orientation can never be changed, and I have evidence to the contrary.

quote: Originally posted by Fez Okay maybe I will concede a small point here.. but I am talking about myself. I cannot change. I don't know if these people you know are being honest to themselves. But I don't care as I don't know them. Or maybe they are bisexual.

It depends on what your definition of bisexual is. If you define it as someone who has had sex with both men and women, then by that definition they are bisexual. If you define it as someone who is attracted to both genders or has sex with both genders, then they weren't bi. They were one way, and then the other.

quote: Originally posted by Fez It is the way I am. There is nothing I can do about it. I can't change.

I'm not asking you to change, merely to validate the fact that others have. They weren't trying to either, it just happened.

	03-06-2003 07:27									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Becaue you said sexual orientation can never be changed, and I have evidence to the contrary.

Well for me I am saying.

quote: It depends on what your definition of bisexual is. If you define it as someone who has had sex with both men and women, then by that definition they are bisexual. If you define it as someone who is attracted to both genders or has sex with both genders, then they weren't bi. They were one way, and then the other.

I usually go by the definition of who is attracted to who. If a guy is attracted to guys and women, and only has sex with women, he is still bisexual.

quote: I'm not asking you to change, merely to validate the fact that others have. They weren't trying to either, it just happened.

I still reject the fact that others can "change". That is a load of nonsense. You are either gay, bisexual or straight. You can't flip it off like a light switch. I learned that the hard way. And now I got a boyfriend.. sheesh.. I am probably better off than those who claim that they have "changed". Let me guess it was with religious doctrine involved?

	03-06-2003 07:46									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well for me I am saying.

Now you are saying that, when I made my point you were saying that it was impossible absolutely.

quote: Originally posted by Fez I usually go by the definition of who is attracted to who. If a guy is attracted to guys and women, and only has sex with women, he is still bisexual.

So you use the second definition, simultaneous attraction / activity with both genders.

quote: Originally posted by Fez I still reject the fact that others can "change". That is a load of nonsense. You are either gay, bisexual or straight. You can't flip it off like a light switch. I learned that the hard way. And now I got a boyfriend.. sheesh.. I am probably better off than those who claim that they have "changed". Let me guess it was with religious doctrine involved?

You can't still reject the fact, as you changed your stance already to one of acceptance. The phrase you want to use here: I again reject...

And I never said anyone was flipping anything on or off like a lightswitch. Not one of these people made an effort to change, they just noticed that they suddenly had a crush on a guy even though they had been lesbians for some time, or vice versa. Interestingly none of them has ever changed back to gay, though some who changed from straight to gay changed back years later.

None of these people are religious in the conservative sense, and none hold any malice toward gays or homosexuality in general. There are more Bhuddists than Christians in their number, and they are all very liberal / progressive types. They had all come out of the closet long before they made their switch.

I know even more straight people who became gay. Are they switching on and off like lightbulbs? Is their orientation switch merely the product of peer pressure? Get real dude. My friends are all adults over 30 years of age, and aren't all hung up about what their parents or friends think about their sexuality. Their parents are done being shocked by whatever they are doing, and they don't need to shock their parents (which is something guys your age seem to need) nor placate them.

	03-06-2003 07:53									#130
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i hate it.

for no better reason than it snarled traffic the last two years where i was.

	03-06-2003 07:58									#131
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Well I have no more comments to add. I made my point. If you want to continue thinking arbitrarily sikander. I will not, nor will I ever believe, can somebody change their sexual orientation. Never, never, never.

	03-06-2003 08:11									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well I have no more comments to add.

What about all of the comments you add right after this?

quote: Originally posted by Fez I made my point.

Only you can know what your point is, but I don't think you have effectively communicated it to me.

quote: Originally posted by Fez If you want to continue thinking arbitrarily sikander.

Do you want to turn this into a sentence, or just leave it dangling incomplete?

quote: Originally posted by Fez I will not, nor will I ever believe, can somebody change their sexual orientation. Never, never, never.

Hey I understand. You came out to your parents and now you have a big investment in showing them that you aren't wishy-washy. IIRC you are heading to college this year, which is great. There you can develop a peer group who will support you regardless of your orientation (just as I supported my friends). That will reduce the importance of your parents opinion in your life, which in turn will allow you a chance to develop your own ideas based on your own experiences, rather than dogmatically latching on to a position and defending it in the face of evidence to the contrary.

	03-06-2003 09:37									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander What about all of the comments you add right after this?

Whatever. I am going to respond to this mockery of a post.

quote: Only you can know what your point is, but I don't think you have effectively communicated it to me.

You haven't made a point that I can counter.

quote: Hey I understand. You came out to your parents and now you have a big investment in showing them that you aren't wishy-washy. IIRC you are heading to college this year, which is great. There you can develop a peer group who will support you regardless of your orientation (just as I supported my friends).

I hate to break this to you but I already have plenty of friends in my school. It is not like I don't already.

quote: That will reduce the importance of your parents opinion in your life, which in turn will allow you a chance to develop your own ideas based on your own experiences, rather than dogmatically latching on to a position and defending it in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Oh please.. what ****ing evidence have you presented? YOu have presented nothing. You haven't provided a single link. You are nothing but trouble for this forum, and you have been such ever since you started discussing in this thread. People can't change their sexuality. It isn't some taste you can change like that. It just isn't possible. I am not changing my opinion on that. Call it stubborn, that is just the way I am.

And you think I can't come up with my own conclusions on things right now? OH please... get a grip on reality. You have presented no evidence, you have thrown a bunch of statements out there as if they were gold.. but you provide no backing. And then you have the GUTS TO ACTUALLY CLAIM I DO NOT BACK ANY OF MY STATEMENTS! Stop acting this way and grow up.

	03-06-2003 11:47									#134
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I see Fez is back

I'm going to go spend it with my brother in Dallas, he's gay and we are going to have dinner at his newly remodled condo with some friends over for drinks and maybe go to a piano bar later. A fun time for all. I love to go out with gay guys they are so much more uninhibited and always know how to have a good time! And oh what style!!

	03-06-2003 13:45									#135
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Gays just look gay.

	03-06-2003 16:04									#136
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Your taste in sexual partners really does change over time. The teenage guy sits in the classroom and thinks about some 18-year-old stereotypical blonde girl with firm breasts. As the years go by, he becomes inclined to seek out older and more interesting women, discovering that sexual attraction and human affection is also a highly psychological thing. A grown man who has had his share of the young ones might still find them attractive, however he will most likely prefer somebody older as his primary and emotional sex partner.

There are an infinite number of environmental factors that determine your sexuality, so we don't have to use the extreme examples of polar expeditions and the like. If you suffer sexual abuse, you're more likely to be an abuser with time. If you become obsessed with self control for some reason or another, you're more likely to enjoy being whipped around. I remember living down the street from a brothel in Copenhagen where a succesful football player used to come by to get punished - ask any prostitute and (s)he'll tell you that this fetisch is widely enjoyed by people who have had succes and respect in their lives. Now that we've established these changes, why wouldn't some combination of factors - in my childhood and teenage years, perhaps - be sufficient to gradually change me into a homosexual?

Sexual identity, both orientation and other preferences is only a small part of your "total" identity, so to speak. I've decided to accept the notion that a genetic error could make some people more likely to become gays, but why stop there? Wouldn't it be logical to say that if you're born gay or likely-to-be-gay, you could also be born with tendencies towards other sexual practices (s/m, for example) or partners (blondes over redheads or whatever). Or what would be the difference, then?

My point still stands that based on the above, it's fair to say your sexuality - even if some trait or another -is really a flexible thing that's clay in the hands of your environment and the right people. We're not phedophiles, but we've got to understand that if we had been relocated at birth to ancient Greece, the likeliness of that happening would be much higher - wouldn't you think? Surely a phedophile must be as firm and unchangeable in his sexuality as we are, or what?

(Disclaimer, I'm not saying anything about a connection between homosexuality and phedophilia. I'm trying to see where and if the technical difference lies between your gender preference and your preference in all other aspects.)

	03-06-2003 16:18									#137
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I agree with Monk - when I was younger I could only really fantasise about white women. Then once I had an encounter with an Indian girl, I tend to find at least half of ethnically-darker-skinned (not necessarily tanned as such - I hate the tanned blonde look) attractive.

	03-06-2003 16:18									#138
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So I reckon gays can alter their behaviour as well.

	03-06-2003 16:30									#139
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Boddington's,

Well ... the statement that "gays can alter their behaviour as well" isn't what I'm aiming at. Your sexuality can be influenced from a lot of things, but that doesn't mean you, me or Mr. Fun are capable of changing our sexuality at will, nor that any of us should make the effort.

	03-06-2003 16:33									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Your taste in sexual partners really does change over time. The teenage guy sits in the classroom and thinks about some 18-year-old stereotypical blonde girl with firm breasts. As the years go by, he becomes inclined to seek out older and more interesting women, discovering that sexual attraction and human affection is also a highly psychological thing. A grown man who has had his share of the young ones might still find them attractive, however he will most likely prefer somebody older as his primary and emotional sex partner. There are an infinite number of environmental factors that determine your sexuality, so we don't have to use the extreme examples of polar expeditions and the like. If you suffer sexual abuse, you're more likely to be an abuser with time. If you become obsessed with self control for some reason or another, you're more likely to enjoy being whipped around. I remember living down the street from a brothel in Copenhagen where a succesful football player used to come by to get punished - ask any prostitute and (s)he'll tell you that this fetisch is widely enjoyed by people who have had succes and respect in their lives. Now that we've established these changes, why wouldn't some combination of factors - in my childhood and teenage years, perhaps - be sufficient to gradually change me into a homosexual? Sexual identity, both orientation and other preferences is only a small part of your "total" identity, so to speak. I've decided to accept the notion that a genetic error could make some people more likely to become gays, but why stop there? Wouldn't it be logical to say that if you're born gay or likely-to-be-gay, you could also be born with tendencies towards other sexual practices (s/m, for example) or partners (blondes over redheads or whatever). Or what would be the difference, then? My point still stands that based on the above, it's fair to say your sexuality - even if some trait or another -is really a flexible thing that's clay in the hands of your environment and the right people. We're not phedophiles, but we've got to understand that if we had been relocated at birth to ancient Greece, the likeliness of that happening would be much higher - wouldn't you think? Surely a phedophile must be as firm and unchangeable in his sexuality as we are, or what? (Disclaimer, I'm not saying anything about a connection between homosexuality and phedophilia. I'm trying to see where and if the technical difference lies between your gender preference and your preference in all other aspects.)

Let's talk about those who have married someone of the opposite gender, had children, etc., then years later, they come out to themselves and others. Then they get a divorce.

Of all the gay men who are older than me, whom I have talked with in the past, all of them have memories of having attractions towards those of the same gender when they were young teenagers before they married someone of the opposite gender. This to me, seems to imply that they have always been gay -- they were never straight, but wanted to believe they could become straight in order to conform.

If the environment would play a major factor in causing sexual orientation to be one's choice, then how is it that homosexuals are found in every country, every culture, and under every form of government in the world? And let's take my own personal experience -- nothing in my Catholic family and my rural environment indicated I would become an openly avowed homosexual.

To understand closeted homosexuals who have married or tried to convert to being straight, you have to understand societal pressures to conform to a heterosexist society.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of the societal pressures to conform to what is perceived as the majority's views of what is normal -- even though for homosexuals, to be gay or lesbian is normal.

And according to the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Medical Association -- being homosexual is not a genetic error or any other kind of disorder or illness.

How many more insults would you care to hurl at homosexuals?

	03-06-2003 16:43									#141
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Mr Fun

quote: Of all the gay men who are older than me, whom I have talked with in the past, all of them have memories of having attractions towards those of the same gender when they were young teenagers before they married someone of the opposite gender.

And of course, they didn't say this because it is what they thought you wanted to hear!

quote: If the environment would play a major factor in causing sexual orientation to be one's choice, then how is it that homosexuals are found in every country, every culture, and under every form of government in the world?

Some aspects of environment are replicated throughout the world.

quote: To understand closeted homosexuals who have married or tried to convert to being straight, you have to understand societal pressures to conform to a heterosexist society.

Huh? Of course there are pressures, and I believe these pressures should remain, since they may affect some people's sexuality in a positive way.

quote: And according to the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Medical Association -- being homosexual is not a genetic error or any other kind of disorder or illness.

Those liberal gay-friendly organisations are not the final word on the subject.

quote: How many more insults would you care to hurl at homosexuals?

None, I don't believe I have hurled any and if so I apologise.

	03-06-2003 17:09									#142
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I haven't hurled any insults at homosexuals. In case you haven't noticed, I've been concentrating on general human sexuality and whether it develops or not. This means that if we do assume I'm hurling insults around, it's on everybody including Bod's and myself as heterosexuals, not just at you and the other gays. You're focusing too much on homosexuality, you need to adress the points I made on other stuff as well. To put it concrete, can you also be born a child abuser or with a huge affection for Indian women, and if not, what's the difference?

If the environment would play a major factor in causing sexual orientation to be one's choice, then how is it that homosexuals are found in every country, every culture, and under every form of government in the world?

Because sex drive and curiosity are basically the things that has made the world go round forever. I know you won't be satisfied with that answer, but then consider you won't find equal representation of gays in all societies, which would be the case if you were correct. You're the history dude, not me, but... if environment doesn't play the major factor, why would there be a lot more gays and phedophiles in ancient Greece (this is, I think, a backed up point by historians) than there is in modern Greece or elsewhere?

I'm sure you're right there isn't an obvious reason you're a homosexual man in the sense that we could point to a dominant mother or other factors that have been speculated to affect things, but I don't see that as any different from a case where someone else from a rural, Catholic background does something very un-rural and un-Catholic, and there are plenty of those cases, but we don't take that persons thoughts and actions and say he was predetermined to say or do so since birth.

To get some things out in the open, yes I understand societal pressures, and you do know heterosexuals feel them too. My best friend through many years is a feminine, gay man and I support full equality for gays and lesbians. I don't want to be called a gay basher and an insult hurler solely because I have an more open-minded idea of what sexuality is and how it works. Honestly, it isn't constructive to imply I've said homosexuality is a disorder. Nope, a form of sexuality is a preference that you might not be able to control but is a living, changing thing as well.

	03-06-2003 20:31									#143
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Monk, but what it comes down to, is the fact is you don't know. You will never know because you are not gay. You don't have an open mind what sexuality is, you just don't understand it as it seems. And sexuality is not a preference. I am sorry but that is another lie. Sure attractions may change but if you are a straight male, you will always be attracted to women and if you are a gay male, you will always be attracted to guys. That doesn't change. You are claiming it does.

Your points don't stand.

	03-06-2003 20:58									#144
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Monk, as least as far as Fez goes, you probably shouldn't continue. He's said before that he won't change his opinions.

Oh, and you did "insult" Mr Fun by implying that homosexuality might be a genetic error. Error has a negative connotation and he chose to interpret it in a way that would get his blood riled up. I know that's not what you meant, though.

Fez, you're being a bit hypocritical by saying others don't back up their points. Monk actually has provided evidence, and your refutation of that evidence was your opinion, an opinion based solely on your own experiences. This is perfectly fine, but don't get angry at other people when they provide actual facts.

	03-06-2003 20:59									#145
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You will never know because you are not gay.

Again, too much focus on homosexuality. When I say your sexuality is dynamic and develops, I'm talking about ALL people here. I'm talking about all people, you, me, Fun, Boddington's, the Indian girl and my dentist. Unlike what Mr. Fun thinks, I'm not on an anti-gay crusade of any kind, life is too short for that.

The genes vs. environment debate is a classic one and you certainly don't have to be gay to participate. The reason I will never know any more about this is because you guys won't or can't answer my questions.

In my last post (directed primarily to Mr. Fun, but to you as well), I asked if you could be born with a tendency towards child abuse or Indian girls, and you haven't answered that. If you'd like, you could also answer the one about ancient Greece. They're both relatively simple questions to deal with, assuming I am really so obviously wrong.

	03-06-2003 21:05									#146
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Oh, hi Lorizael and thanks for joining in

About the genetical error, you're 100% right it wasn't meant to be taken as such. I figure "error" might not be an appropriate word.

	03-06-2003 21:13									#147
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quote: Your posts just reinforce my belief that many heterosexuals can never understand the nature of what it is like to be homosexual.

quote: You will never know because you are not gay.

With arguments like these it is no wonder nobody "knows" or "understands". These kind of statements get your argument nowhere. Why is that when ever someone brings up an argument that there are many factors to being gay than just genetic that you all use these kinds of rebuttals? Why can't you just conceed that it may be possible, but nobody really knows? That is the truth, isn't it? That no one really knows?

I know that my friend married a woman that he was in love with, and had no homosexual inclinations at that time. Maybe this is true, maybe this is not, but that is what he told me. It wasn't until a few years into the marriage that he started to have such thoughts, and it took 3 years for these thoughts to become string enough to divorce his wife. Sounds like a change to me, and not just a lasp in reasoning or psychological disorder that was blocking his nature, and then just one day snapped. How do you explain that? Better yet, can you explain why the other factors that society lends to the development of person take second chair to the nature of a person when determining their sexuality?

Note: Saying "it's a gay thing, you won't understand" won't cut it.

	03-06-2003 22:25									#148
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Exactly

	03-06-2003 23:12									#149
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I don't believe that people can turn gay... maybe they did not know previously as I didn't. Or I just shoved it off and tried to be straight. That wasn't successful. People can't just change in this area. It isn't like food or music tastes as some try to make it out to be. I will never concede this debate, never ever. That is something I will refuse to do.

	03-06-2003 23:14									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Monk The genes vs. environment debate is a classic one and you certainly don't have to be gay to participate. The reason I will never know any more about this is because you guys won't or can't answer my questions.

Well first off your questions make absolutely no sense. There is no way you compare being gay to child abuse or a particular taste with one ethnic group. That jus doesn't make sense. Also the other reason I evaded your questions is because you equated being gay as being some kind genetic error. I really don't think so. You are painting the wrong picture.