11-06-2003 21:25									#61
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Good...

	12-06-2003 01:05									#62
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Vox are interested in a plan to evacuate them. In fact, they are already preparing one of their own.
Does this mean that it's time to bring up Nathan's offer?

	12-06-2003 02:26									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Vox are interested in a plan to evacuate them. In fact, they are already preparing one of their own. Does this mean that it's time to bring up Nathan's offer?

Absolutely.

They would welcome the assistace right about now.

This is wht we have right now...

1) Vox will hand over their catapults and disband all of their other military forces except for five immortals. They will allow up to two WCs to enter their territory to verify compliance and will keep their cities empty of forces while our inspectors visit.

2) We will give Vox 12 turns of peace to build and rush settlers and galleys to evactuate as much of their population as possible. With proper planning (and we could help with that), I think they could escape with at least five settlers and galleys to go with the immortals they're allowed to keep.

3) While Vox is rebuilding in whatever new home they can find (if any), we will supply Vox with whatever technologies we can without compromising our diplomatic or trade relations with other civs.

4) Vox agrees not to disband what's left of their cities after their building and pop rushing.


Anything Else....

We should deliver the proposal by the beginning of RPs turn, if possible, so that they can discuss, agree and actualize their initial part of the plan.

I think that his is where our code of honor might pay off...

Lets flesh out the plan a little more in nathan's proposal of peace

Mss

	12-06-2003 07:04									#64
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MSS. See the Vox discussion thread. Sorry, I bumped it and it seems to be going on from there.

The discussion threads are better for this sort of thing, I think.

	12-06-2003 21:58									#65
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Sorry guys, no time to read all the discussions here, I'm again hit with that terrible disease some refer to as RL

actually, partly that is not so bad, as one of these weeks some change could finally happen in my g/f situation (which is none existing, for those who don't know). Partly I just drown in work.

Just a few things: I officially give my ambassador position to RP to OPD (well, actually, I was only interim ambassador), I'd like to keep Lego. However, I can't promise day-to-day attendance (it has been several days since I browsed the forum), so if someone would please keep my seat warm if something needs to be done, I'd appreciate it.

Keep up the good work, and give them hell (well, at least Vox),
DeepO

	13-06-2003 16:52									#66
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Vox has scouted much of our territory, with their embassy and their incursions. It appears that RP is going to scout our shores.
We have little left to hide. Is it time to set up map whoring (sell our map to everyone simultaneously) so that we can at least profit from our world map?

	13-06-2003 17:44									#67
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I definitely favor selling our maps at this point. Right now all that blackness is doing us more harm than good. Might have saved us against Vox, but now we have the galleys to give us enough warning time. The other civs fears are probably that we have hundreds of tiles down here. Lets show them that those tiles gotta be on Lego or elsewhere.

	14-06-2003 01:36									#68
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Ok, so be it. My PoV is clearly in the minority. And based on your posts, Aeson, I've come to see that I was probably wrong.

Sell it, then.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 03:08									#69
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I agree, begrudgingly. Our map will be part of the price we pay for our fractured diplomacy.

	14-06-2003 04:23									#70
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We need to set a price and sell it around, Then Lego will start to look frightening... We will bring it up in tthe RP chat tonight...

Mss

	14-06-2003 04:33									#71
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Sorry, but now I'm confused of when this is supposed to be, I understud it would be saturday 15.00h?

	14-06-2003 04:36									#72
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Has it changed?.. I need to go home and see what is up. I have commited to something tonight at 7pm PDT

Mss

	14-06-2003 04:46									#73
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"Several times in the Civ3 Strat forum, I noticed the idea that it was not so important to OWN a great wonder, as it was to DENY it to others. Now, can this be applied to wars and allies? If one warring side tells me "yeah, no problem, we can handle that, don't worry" (read: no deal available) and the other one says "look, we cannot make it on our own, we'd really appreciate if you could support us, even indirectly - if you can help us here with this, we could give you that..." (read: a deal available). So, what does a civ having no interest in either warring party winning the war do? Yes, right, it sticks to doing business. Wherever it is available."

- From Vondrack's post on the public thread.
__________________________________

Why are we not negotiating out-game alliances with in-game currency?

Our 'friends' are being pretty obvious about this... both in reference to the now and to history.

	14-06-2003 05:06									#74
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A flash of honesty amid the bullshit.

GhengisFarb was pretty honest too.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 13:28									#75
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed We need to set a price and sell it around, Then Lego will start to look frightening...

	14-06-2003 16:40									#76
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About Engineering, and ND:

ND said it fears an alliance against them, and so have GoW

They both feel like they are out of the loop. It seems that RP succesfuly managed to keep both in the dark, and play with GoW in the process. (or so it seems).

About Engineering:ND is clearly out of the loop, if they are researching it while everyone gets it from Vox.

This is our chance, we give ND a tip about the situation, they promise to set low prices so that at least GoW gets it from them instead of from Vox, we provide the customers. In the end Vox stays without support, and we have a chance to strengthen our relations with both ND and GoW.

Would you like me to throw ND and GoW a word about this?

	14-06-2003 17:20									#77
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That sounds like an excellent idea!

	14-06-2003 17:24									#78
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IMHO we also need to contact every civilization (except for Vox, of course) and set prices for WM trades.
Our goal is to sell our WM (or trade it for something else) to every civilization simultaneously, to maximize profit (in the SPDG we used to call this "map whoring", I hope noone minds the term).
If our ambassadors need help, I would gladly take charge of probing one or two teams on this issue.

	14-06-2003 18:01									#79
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Guys,

I wanted to catch up with the diplomatic things going on, but that's not easy... we may be reviving our diplomatic strategy (for which I'm happy), but we're also getting sloppy in the progress. The idea of logs worked fine up until a few weeks ago, so why aren't they being updated now? I see PMs and chats all over the place, and without going over everything (which I don't have the time for), I can't make a coherent picture

Could you please go back in very precisely adding all diplomatic contact to the logs, so we can keep track? And, please top those again, I don't care if we have 10 topped threads, if that means I can find stuff in seconds instead of needing to spend hours reading everything.

thanks,
DeepO

	14-06-2003 18:19									#80
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DeepO- You can see the logs of the chats wih ND, RP and GoW on the relevant threads, as for PM's- I know that I've been logging everything relevant, and I saw a couple of PM's to and from Vox were recently logged by Nathan.

I'm not sure how much more things we have to log, but if anyone does have a PM or chat log- please put those in the appropriate threads, not just in some turn thread or a casual discussion thread.

	14-06-2003 20:13									#81
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Yeah, sorry about my last post, I noticed it wasn't so bad as I expected. some messages seem to miss, however most are there... but still, topping those threads again would make it more overseeable

Nice going on the diplo front, BTW, it seems in the current crisis, we're doing better then average, all things considering. RPs changing attitude surprises me (allthough I always considered them opportunistic), but I'm especially surprised with Lego. It's quite obvious Vox wants to retreat towards them, but discussion about this has been going on since the start of this war. IIRC vondrack asked me in one of the last chats I had with him if we would be angry if they offered Vox refuge, to which I replied that that was most likely not our concern, as long as they were off our continent (as we couldn't trust them). Nothing has changed since then, only become more extreme.

DeepO

	14-06-2003 21:34									#82
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Isn't someone going to nail Beta on the glaring lie... in his posting of the peace offer, he has inserted text about the southern Immortals being down to 1 hp...

We know that we never received that language, and I sincerely doubt that it is what was actually posted in Vox' private forum. Even if it was, there had to be further posts their discussing the removal of that language.

	15-06-2003 00:31									#83
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I have to be at teh in-laws all day, but I want to set some diplomatic policy here and let the ambassadors and the other scholias plan accordingly.

1) I want us to appologize for our abrasivness in the RP chat regarding the RP galley scouting the coast. We will allow them through. We just aslk that they cordinate with us sio as not to interfeare in any way with thhe war effort.

2) We are willing to trade our world map with the world for the right prices. Do not set the prices in stone, work with the tactical and ecdononoc scholias regarding the price.

3) I know this is contriversial, but we need to find out what deals Vox has yet to deliver on (like engineering). We want to understand what would the various civs need to turn a blind eye to the elimination of Vox. Look at it ths way, when on buseness buys out nother, they get assume the accounts payable and accounts recievable. We should be willing to honor Voxes deals for the remainder of what is owed to them. the policy is that we are to investigate the diplomatic landscape and find out what we can and what other nations would require for the loss of a their outstanding deals that Vox be able will not deliver on. Even if we let them exodus, the loss in pop making settlers will lenthen the time until engineering.

4) Alva this is where you need to shine...Lets become good friends to ND

5) Let us get Engineering from ND and trade it around.
..... optional part, to be discussed with the economic scholia..Lets try to be on the recieving end of DeepOs "tech trading scheme" They sell it to us for X and we sell it for Y with a kick back to ND....

6) I want GoW to have Iron before they are attacked. ...but they are not to accept any contracts involving us while we supply it, (this one needs to be discussed with the ecomic and tacticall scholia)

7) GoW is our friend and we want to lookk for opportunities to use their mercinary policies in the world stage.


That is about it for now. I suggest we use ND and GoW to crush RP. It is not an official policy, just a preference.


Well I have to go so I will check in later...
Mss

	15-06-2003 00:49									#84
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Wow, isn't caving in on to many (practically all) things all at once?
That's how I read it, sorry.

quote: 4) Alva this is where you need to shine...Lets become good friends to ND

Ah, now it's all down to me is it ? , trying to pull a Rumsfeldt (sp?) on me héy...

The problem with ND is that, well, there just isn't that much to alk about. Look at the chat we had we them, that must have been the shortest one we ever had.

	15-06-2003 00:52									#85
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3) I suspect that Vox is researching engineering with 10% science. That explains their ETA for it, assuming that they have begun when we both have entered the medieval age.

	15-06-2003 01:12									#86
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I'm not sure about #3, MSS.

I do, however, think that we need to be more proactive about finding out what things the other teams WANT, and figuring out how to get it for them (for appropriate value in return, of course).

	15-06-2003 10:27									#87
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excellent comments folks.

Nothing too fast. Play poker style. We need to look at the business side of this diplomacy thing. It is allways this for that in one way or another.

As for the map, present to RP that as we are seriously considering the sale of our WM, so we do not have an issue with them scouting the coast as long as they do not interfear with the war and they land no units.... Done

As for point 3, nothing to fast. Contact the other nations and say...Hey we realize that one of the reasons you do not want vox eliminated is because you might have an outstanding deal with them and you do not want to loose your initial investment without getting what you expect from vox. Is this correct? What would soften the blow and what would you like to see in compensation.

Alva, Just calling your attention to the point that we want to connect with ND more now that we realize that RP is playing ND and GoW. No pressure. We need to get closer to ND. They are researching Engineering andwe might want to obtain it use it as a bargaining chip, paying proper royalties to ND. From our chat with GoW last night, It might help with the global diplomacy impact with the elimination of Vox, if thats what we want.

Mainly, I am trying to find out the wants and desires (and motives) of teh other nations....


Mss

	15-06-2003 12:26									#88
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Regarding Eng.
I'm not so sure everyone will be thrilled to buy from us at this point, especially when we have to get it from ND, and than sell it around.

I would much rather have ND sell it- they have no potential customers at this point except for us. So that means they'll be able to sell for a near-bottom price. I'm sure they would rather buy it from ND at a lower price, than from us (granted we could even sell it after we buy from ND).

Again, my idea as I have suggested and was generally accepted is that we get ND to sell it to everyone. I think that would work far more easily for us, and would get the same, if not greater, effect of isolating Vox.

Also about ND: they fear GoW and RP, and GoW fears ND and RP- don't you find it funny. It seems to me that the two neighbors rarely talk now. In this regard, I also find it funny that everyone says we do bad diplomacy.

	15-06-2003 12:32									#89
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I think we can get Theo, for free. Eng, for free.

Lego will give us Theo's for Voxes lives, plus assurances that Voxes other free techs are sold to us at reasonable prices.

Vox will give us Eng or we will extinguish them.

I don't know how much we need profit from 2 free techs.

	15-06-2003 17:42									#90
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed 1) I want us to appologize for our abrasivness in the RP chat regarding the RP galley scouting the coast. We will allow them through. We just aslk that they cordinate with us sio as not to interfeare in any way with thhe war effort.

I'll get right on it and the other stuff too, today or tommorrow. Were probably going to need 2 pikes minimum as just in case cover. I was thinking about a cunning plan to decieve RP and make them think we have alot more millitary than we actually have using the soldier shuffle trick. But we'd need about 2pikes, 2medinf, 2WC's and 2cats min for that when we need all the units we have to deal with vox and GoW.

Is it ok to tell them I'm really annoyed with togas and his behaviour recently because I am.