15-06-2003 19:52									#91
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Would anyone mind if we gave ENG for practically for free to ND (building relations).
They are doing the research anyway, anyone will have it aswell, so we won't get much for it anyway.
(Perhaps i could try for an updated WM (they won't have much new territory on it anyway, so all it would show is new infrastructure.))

	15-06-2003 20:42									#92
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We could ask them to get us a map of Lego's coast by trading with GoW, and then trading their map with us.
This will also help us tremendously when we sell our own maps to the rest of the world.

	16-06-2003 02:31									#93
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Is it ok to tell them I'm really annoyed with togas and his behaviour recently because I am.

I think we need to try to leave the personal stuff behind. Telling them their king is a twit might minimise any influence you may gain.

	16-06-2003 02:54									#94
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quote: Originally posted by OPD Is it ok to tell them I'm really annoyed with togas and his behaviour recently because I am.

That would be trouble. We need to swallo our anger a bit and let it ride unfortunatly. We have to build a facad of trust with RP, because clearly we do not trust them entirely (mutual feeling), but we must create a sence of "warm-fuzzies" nonetheless..

BTW Folks... I intend that this thread be used to formulate the diplomatic policies, but will be editing the top post to express the finalized, up to date policy. I will edit the top post sometime in the next day.

Mss

	16-06-2003 17:21									#95
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When are we expecting to have a harbor on-line?
I can assist in finalizing deals (iron with GoW if we want to, and luxes with everyone else) starting this Thursday. Just tell me who I need to talk to and what I need to propose

	16-06-2003 18:22									#96
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Some thoughts:

All the Bob civs are worried that we might be a factor in 'internal' affairs on Bob. Particularly if Vox do indeed disappear from our little island. Much to no-ones surprise, ND and GoW have offered NAPs. RP probably ought to be considering one too - although GoW are only seperated from us by 1 tiles of water, I think of us being closer to RP, simply because with our lighthouse shortcut, it is easier to get troops from our core to RP lands. From the chat logs, it appears that they are all worried about being on the wrong end of a 2 on 1 war on Bob, and are all worried that we are capable of shifting the balance of power.

I'd suggest that NAPs with both ND and GoW would be a bad idea. It would take RP all of three seconds to notice that if we are going to join in the fight at all, it would be against them. So I think that we can only have one NAP (or one publically announced one, but I wouldn't rely on a non-public one remaining secret, given that the Bob civs are probably all testing each other out to see how the alliances are going to stack up - it is the kind of info one team might offer up to persuade another that they are in a strong position, and then gets reported to the third team as a point of interest).

The alternative would be NAPs with all three Bob civs (if RP would go for it), as a declaration that we want to keep out of Bobs affairs for a while and let them deal with any military matters. While this has some advantages (they might let up on trying to out-maneouver us if they don't think we are a military threat for now) it does limit our ability to take advantage of the Bob situation should events turn out in a way that means we want to go and have a look around.

On the Lego front, do we really believe that they weren't one of the teams trying to organise an embargo against us. I know everyone will jump to the conclusion that it was RP, but it was ND and Lego who were stalling on buying Feudalism from us. It would make sense for Lego of course, since they particularly don't want us to get the Sistine, and don't want us growing into a threat to them. Plus why are they suddenly such good friends with Vox?

	16-06-2003 21:35									#97
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Some thoughts: On the Lego front, [removed most of paragraph]...why are they suddenly such good friends with Vox?

Thats got me wondering too

Mss

	16-06-2003 21:42									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber When are we expecting to have a harbor on-line? I can assist in finalizing deals (iron with GoW if we want to, and luxes with everyone else) starting this Thursday. Just tell me who I need to talk to and what I need to propose

3 turns I believe.

They have wines.
I simple support lux for lux trades.
You could help, check in with Zeit as well.
There is nothing scheduled yet


Mss

	17-06-2003 00:15									#99
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MSS & Vulture:

Clearly Lego has worked out tech deals with Vox, and don't want to lose them as a trading partner. They probably worry about being cut off by Bobian civs and us if they get too strong. If they allow Vox to survive near them, they have themselves a vassal that can assist their research & keep them on top.

Of course, I would just LOVE it if Vox were to turn on them. Wouldn't that be just hysterical?

-Arrian

	17-06-2003 00:42									#100
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed quote: Originally posted by vulture On the Lego front, [removed most of paragraph]...why are they suddenly such good friends with Vox? Thats got me wondering too Mss

Not too suddenly. Lego may well have been propping Vox up for some time. That's a lot of gold to upgrade all the immortals we've seen, and to hire the mercenaries (GoW has fessed up that a total of 6 units were contracted for).

RP is a monarchy, and until recently a very corruption weakened one. Were they rolling in gold? Maybe some, yes, no doubt. However, there had to be more. Lego is an ideal candidate for the source of that.

Another clue. vondrack stated in chat that he has become good freinds with Beta. The way you become close with someone around these parts is by frequent posting on the same topics or through frequent and productive chats. vondrack and Beta do not post on the same topics. Why would they have been chatting so much?

	17-06-2003 04:17									#101
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Interesting ideas on Lego... they complement my latest thoughts on the Lego comments thread.

I'm not so sure we're doing good in letting Vox live, or let them leave with much of their potential intact. I agree we can't stop a Voxodus, but if they don't know about the teleportation thing, we could have a 1 city, undefended Vox instead of a 7 city protected Vox.

I still think that feelers should go out to all other teams besides Vox and Lego on how they see it, they are also involved. Plus, I can easily say this without asking for more work myself, as I'm no ambassador to anyone involved

DeepO

	17-06-2003 18:38									#102
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We still need to send Vox a counter-offer for the peace proposal. And we would be keeping them waiting for too long if we don't send it by the end of this turn.

I think we should let Vox use the teleportation trick. That way we would get their cities faster... and they would also have to give us their cities for this to work, they won't be able to leave a "scorched earth" behind in the last minute.

	17-06-2003 18:47									#103
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither RP is a monarchy, and until recently a very corruption weakened one. Were they rolling in gold? Maybe some, yes, no doubt. However, there had to be more. Lego is an ideal candidate for the source of that.

Barb camps?

	17-06-2003 19:56									#104
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I would like to propose the following:
Let's ask RP to pull their galley back, in return for a discounted map deal. If they keep exploring our coast, our map might be worth far less than it is now by the time that we sell it to the world.
Since they're probably roleplaying with that galley, they might be more reluctant than we would expect to pull it back... but perhaps we can join in on the roleplaying bit.

	20-06-2003 18:16									#105
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Proposed message to Role Play:

quote: Dear whoever-their-ambassador-is, In the past, your team has shown interest in acquiring our world map. It is now available for purchase. Would you be interested? If so, please propose your price for the map and we will get back to you shortly. Best regards, Whoever-sends-this.

	21-06-2003 05:19									#106
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That works for me. I think tha short simple (business-like) questions would yield the best results..

Mss

	21-06-2003 05:23									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I would like to propose the following: Let's ask RP to pull their galley back, in return for a discounted map deal. If they keep exploring our coast, our map might be worth far less than it is now by the time that we sell it to the world. Since they're probably roleplaying with that galley, they might be more reluctant than we would expect to pull it back... but perhaps we can join in on the roleplaying bit.

I have thought about this, and I think that the small (relatively) change in value would not outtweigh the diplomatic collateral we are trying to build up right now.

Letting the gallley through can only be a test of trust on both parts. In the end (assuming smooth sailing ) we would have this episode to look back on and say our trust was well founded. This is the subtle way trust can be built.

Mss

	21-06-2003 11:56									#108
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I agree. This would be a great way to get RP to like us a bit more than they do. And, we don't just what the heck is on that galley...

	22-06-2003 11:06									#109
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Okay, can we send the message that I proposed to send to RP in my last post in this thread?
Ambassadors?

	22-06-2003 11:27									#110
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Send it, Shiber.

	24-06-2003 13:14									#111
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Where's the RP log thread?

quote: Honorable E_T, In the past, your team has shown interest in acquiring our world map. It is now available for purchase. Would you be interested? If so, please propose your price for the map and we will get back to you shortly. Please send your reply to Zeit and ManicStarSeed. Thank you. Best regards, Shiber, Gathering Storm.

	24-06-2003 20:40									#112
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Shiber- you can reach the log though the links in the opening post of this thread

I'll send it to Togas as well- E_T mentioned his activity level will decline due to RL issues.

	26-06-2003 03:46									#113
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MSS where do we stand on the map to RP issue? They have asked that we simply give them our map in exchange for them not scouting our coast.

	26-06-2003 23:22									#114
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quote: Originally posted by OPD MSS where do we stand on the map to RP issue? They have asked that we simply give them our map in exchange for them not scouting our coast.

I would rather them scout our coast. It utilizes a resourse of theirs. We gain nothing from RP not scouting if we give them a WM for it.

I would check with the Tactical and Economic scholias for a final descision on what we would take. If they are willing to part with it for nothing, I guess I am ok with that. Our WP contains more than our coast. It will have all our internal geography some of which can only be surmised after a round trip along our coast.

In short, if they were to offer 10-30 gold AND cease (or continue, it makes no difference beyond a ship in our waters) scouting, That would be better.

Also, never "draw a line" with them. Always let them know we are willing to negotiate they appear to be touchy in this regard.

Mss

	26-06-2003 23:44									#115
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We should try to get their map in exchange for ours. It updates the tiles, so we can see where they are headed with workers and such (probably to hook up luxuries, but it would be good to see as many improvements as possible).

Our map is basically 'worthless' now, and RP seems to understand that. There are rather large diplomatic benefits for us trading or even giving it away though. GoW is going to do it anyways once we do that trade, so we might as well get the brownie points ourselves first.

RP's galley ties up more resources for us than it does for them. Not that we have anything to do with those units right now, but it could matter in 5-10 turns.

	26-06-2003 23:53									#116
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I see your points... hmmmm

I would support the RP WM+no explore for WM under the conditions that RP ubnderstands that any of their ships in our waters will be considered and act of war.

Mss

BTW Brownie points will be good so lets finalize the WM trades.

	27-06-2003 00:29									#117
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed I would support the RP WM+no explore for WM under the conditions that RP ubnderstands that any of their ships in our waters will be considered and act of war.

ok so, swap WM and they leave our waters. Although Letting them know that being in our waters would mean war would be hard to do while still sounding civil.

Perhaps we could say we agree to your previous suggestion as long as you also give us your WM??

	27-06-2003 01:32									#118
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Yeah, I guess we should be civil...

I would support WM for WM + they leave..

Mss

	27-06-2003 01:56									#119
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Let's not even request that they withdraw the ship. We want to be able to send some of ours out... and once they have our map they'll probably head back anyways.

	27-06-2003 04:49									#120
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If we're gonna let them have a map and NOT demand that they remove their galley, don't give them the map. The less the outside world knows of Stormia, the better our position when invasion comes.