06-06-2003 07:28									#1
	Office of Diplomatic Affairs Inflate your Upload Space

Office of Diplomatic Affairs

Minister of Diplomatic Affairs:
Up for grabs. If any body wants it then they can post at the bottom of the thread. So far Krill is the only applicant.

Amabassadors Vacant
Role Play: DeepO
Vox Controli: Vacant
Legoland: Vacant
Glory of War: Cort Haus
Neu Demogyptia:? DeepO


Current Events
-Vox Defeated?"

-Nathan' s "Idea for a remote possibility for peace"


Diplomatic Policies
This secton will be edited from time to time to reflect the ongoing policies We should be disscusig policy in this thread and the policy set forth here is the official word on current (and past) issues.

Diplomatic Logs and Comments:

Vox Controli:
Vox Controli Diplomatic Log
Vox Controli Diplomatic Comments#2

Glory of War:
Glory of War Diplomatic Log
Glory of War Diplomatic Comments #2

Role Play:
Role Play Diplomatic Log
Role Play Diplomatic Comments

Legoland:
Legoland Diplomatic Log
Legoland Diplomatic Comments

Neu Demogyptia:
Neu Demogyptia Diplomatic Log
Neu Demogyptia Diplomatic Comments


Original post...... and background....
Greetings, fellow Stormians.

I will edit this top post to link (over time) to all diplomaticly natured and specific Civ diplomacy discussions I can find.

Also, I will be editing this top post from time to time as New threads get created and situations develop.

As I am planning on heading up diplomatic coordination (unless there are any objections, help is always wanted).........

As we can all see we have real diplomatic issues. What we need is to revisit what we are doing and not doing right. There has been a real breakdown in or diplomacy (and I recognize I had my part in the breakdown), so I propose a change.

This thread is dedicated to the diplomatic game. I would like it topped (might not need to) and use it as an office we all go to to discuss our diplomatic scean on a whole.

This is where the Diplomatic Scholia meets.

We formulate all policy here. All official GS diplomacy (PR, Leaks, attitudes and such) is formulated out of this thread. [it hasnt worked that way yet, but No biggie...]


We need to coordinate and soften our touch here is where we can begin...

Lastly..

Also I saw discussion relating to having a individual FAM per se to set tone and direction for the ambassadors. I would be willing to do it (if someone has that position, I do not necessarily want to take it from them) , I usually check in once or twice a day and and can respond to high level dimlomatic issues and back the ambassadors.

Gott go...
krill

Last edited by Krill on 25-05-2004 at 21:34

	06-06-2003 14:09									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

First of all let me say I am sorry for neglecting my FAM duties. Although I have announced I can no longer maintain that position, I should have made an effort to find a replacement.

Perhaps the first change we could do is give the ambassadors greater freedom of action- Having a FAM full time could certainly help with making sure our ambassadors are not out of line. This also promote an active and involved image.

	06-06-2003 14:34									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I forgot two things:
MSS, Go for it (with regard to the FAM post)!

And also the issue of the chat with ND- that should be discussed in the comments thread.

	06-06-2003 18:40									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

This is good. I'll help in anyway I can. If any civ needs a new ambassador?

	06-06-2003 21:12									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OPD, if you're willing to take an ambassador role: I've got two, which I don't have enough time for. Lego and RP... with RP the most difficult one for me (GK was a blessing, however given the last communications on the public forum, I guess a replacement there would be best).

So, if you feel you want to deal with Togas' team (as in reality, he still is making most of the decisions, it seems), please be my guest! Otherwise I'll gladly hand over Lego as well....

DeepO

	06-06-2003 22:49									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I gladly take over either one of them. Togas and GK I know well although...

quote: Originally posted by DeepO however given the last communications on the public forum, I guess a replacement there would be best).

it seems you are being scapegoated into being the reason for poor relations with RP and me taking over would kinda cement this view.

I don't really mind either way so which ever one you think would be best.

	06-06-2003 23:16									#7
	Vox's Offer of Peace Increase Your PM Length

The entire "Official" communication of peace. Voxes offer and

my reply....

quote: Ambassador Betahound and Vox Controli: Gathering Storm thanks you for your offer. This is a good starting point. I will take it back to the Storm so that we can discuss it.

What Beta Sent

quote: BetaHound wrote on 06-06-2003 04:58: Greetings MSS. There has been much discussion within Vox. We understand your position as stated in your letter. To start the discussion, we would propose: Vox makes a public announcement of its agressive and back-handed attack on GS. A public mea culpa. Vox relinquishes rights to all lands in South Estonia. (ie south of Elipolis) Vox gifts the City of Dissidentville to GS. We look forward to hearing from you. Regards ... Beta.

What we started with...

quote: ManicStarSeed wrote on 05-06-2003 17:44: People of Vox: Gathering Storm acknowledges your offer of peace. Be assured that Gathering Storm is considering it. Please understand that there are many in the Storm that will accept nothing less than an unconditional surrender. In other words peace on our terms, Are you still willing to talk peace? We can't hold up the game discussing it, and so we played the turn. If you really want peace, may we suggest sending us a formal proposal, and using some of your teams time on the clock to do it, so that we may have time to properly discuss it (your time, plus the time between us, plus our time)? Please understand, however, that hostilities in the game will continue unless and until a formal deal is reached. Regards Mss, Ambassador to Vox Gathering Storm

	06-06-2003 23:57									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: BetaHound wrote on 06-06-2003 04:58: Greetings MSS. There has been much discussion within Vox. We understand your position as stated in your letter. To start the discussion, we would propose: Vox makes a public announcement of its agressive and back-handed attack on GS. A public mea culpa. Vox relinquishes rights to all lands in South Estonia. (ie south of Elipolis) Vox gifts the City of Dissidentville to GS. We look forward to hearing from you. Regards ... Beta.

Tell them well take a settler over to lego for them and then they can get the hell off our island.

	07-06-2003 00:19									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by OPD Tell them well take a settler over to lego for them and then they can get the hell off our island.

Its looking that way.

The dear john letter I had in mind runs along this way...

People of vox controli:

After careful deliberation, Gathering Storm currently does not accept your overtures of peace. Thanks to the surge in patriotic sentiment brought on by the war, Gathering Storm now has siezed upon a vision of Manifest Destiny.

Our warmest sentiment that we can muster is that we hope you get a settler or two on a gally and sail far far away.





...or something like that

mss

	07-06-2003 01:19									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You misspelled galley, but the rest is very good!

I would add to that that we might have considered their proposal warmly if it was submitted a few turns ago, but since they took so long to admit their defeat, the window of chance has closed over their fingers.

	07-06-2003 01:24									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Drive them into the sea! Let not the wicked infidels escape!

Poetic justice n' whatnot.

	07-06-2003 01:29									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Shiber .... I would add to that that we might have considered their proposal warmly if it was submitted a few turns ago, but since they took so long to admit their defeat, the window of chance has closed over their fingers.

That would create hard feelings. That would be better discussed in a "lessons learned thread" in the main forum.

It is of no use (besides pissing them off) to point out how their past stubornness has left them without any options right now.

Besides They did ask for peace (5-7 turns ago), but it was not warmly accepted as it offered no terms. It took us by suprise and we basicly rebuffed it while figuring out what we would/would not accept.
Mss

	07-06-2003 01:30									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trip Drive them into the sea! Let not the wicked infidels escape! Poetic justice n' whatnot.

Ahh the peanut gallery chimes in ...

	07-06-2003 05:23									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I would also add that given the treatment Vox has given us, we see no option other than them leaving the continent. Gives us sort of excuse, other than just "screw you!"...

	07-06-2003 11:43									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by zeit I would also add that given the treatment Vox has given us, we see no option other than them leaving the continent. Gives us sort of excuse, other than just "screw you!"...

I dunno I kinda like the screw you.

	08-06-2003 00:16									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Shall I as the question to Vox...

"Are you willing to leave this continent for peace? We are putting together a proposal (which includes assistance from GS) but do not want to insult your honor by offering it without knowing it is welcome?"


The discussion is here:

Nathan' s "Idea for a remote possibility for peace"

	08-06-2003 00:31									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yes, that looks very good! Much better than my clumsy proposal that I've put up and posted in Nathan's thread.
Does anyone object to sending a feeler?

Last edited by Shiber on 08-06-2003 at 00:55

	08-06-2003 00:56									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If I were The Voice, I would answer "Tear that insult in tatters, put it in a dish together with the head of that villain who brought it, and return it to those bastards. We will perish fighting."

The words are well put, but it is waaaaaay too early. It might close the door for further negotiations.

	08-06-2003 01:04									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Perhaps you're right. Maybe we should let them send hordes of immortals first, to fight to their death at Inchon, and then once they've failed and they see that our walls are up, they will respond more positively to our offer.

	08-06-2003 02:14									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The whole point of my offer was to get Vox to disband most of their units now so (1) we can change back to builder mode immediately instead of continuing to crank out units (which, I might point out, are getting awfully expensive to maintain) and (2) we won't suffer additional casualties to the forces we already have. If we wait until Vox no longer has any significant capacity to hurt us to make the offer, the offer loses its value to us.

	08-06-2003 02:31									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm with Nathan on this- every turn of building now will be very important in the future.
We can offer this to Vox, if they say no, we can try again later...

I'm sure they wouldn't be offended by a second offer, which is not any worse than the one before, even though their army lays in ruins...

	08-06-2003 02:38									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, go ahead and try it, but don't be surprised if the answer will be as I anticipated. It may be worth a try, but in my opinion the chances are significantly less than 10%. And if Vox asks, where we expect them to go, and we answer, that we don't care and not talked yet with anyone, the chance sinks to nada.

	08-06-2003 02:57									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If we do go with my proposal, I would want to provide a lot more explanation. I've been thinking in terms of a message along the lines of the following:

quote: Greetings People of Vox Controli, We have held a poll within Gathering Storm to determine whether peace between our nations will be possible while we continue to share the continent. The results are overwhelming: there can be no peace while you continue to live on our continent. There are two reasons for this conclusion. First, your continued presence on our borders would pose a permanent military threat to us. For the entire rest of the game, we would have to worry about your providing a ready-made ally to any other nation that might fight against us. That, in turn, would force us to keep a large number of troops on your border at a high upkeep cost, hurting both our production situation and our financial situation. And after the elaborate deception you used in setting up the war with us, it is hard to see how anything you say or promise could possibly mitigate that threat to any significant degree. And second, we have been forced to invest almost all of our golden age's production thus far and most of its wealth in our military. Now that our investment has placed us in a position where conquering the continent is within clear sight, it would be difficult to accept anything less as an adequate repayment for our expenses. We have come too far and sacrificed too much. But that does not mean that Gathering Storm desires to see Vox Controli disappear completely. Continuing to coexist on the same continent is no longer an option from our perspective, but giving you time to evacuate a small number of your troops and as much of your population as you can might be. With five or more settlers, if you could find a place for them to settle, you could instantly have a new core with almost as many cities as your current one (albeit initially much smaller cities), and might someday grow into a reasonably respectable power. And we should be able to help some with your technological situation while you are rebuilding. I wish we could find a viable way to offer you better, but as things stand now, that's the best prospect for Vox's survival that we can come up with. If you would rather fight to the death than continue to exist on terms that would leave Vox in such an uncompetitive position, we will understand perfectly. But if you are interested in negotiating peace on such terms, I can present a more specific proposal. The essence is that you would disband the vast majority of your military, thereby removing your military danger to us and allowing us to shift our economy back to a builder mode, and we, in turn, would guarantee you a period of peace in which to focus on building galleys and settlers before we take over your current cities. Again, I am sorry that we cannot offer you better, but our own security and prosperity have to come first. We hope you can understand that. Please let us know what you decide. Sincerely, Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist, Gathering Storm

Edit: Changed "respectable minor power" to "reasonably respectable power".

	08-06-2003 02:59									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Well, go ahead and try it, but don't be surprised if the answer will be as I anticipated. It may be worth a try, but in my opinion the chances are significantly less than 10%. And if Vox asks, where we expect them to go, and we answer, that we don't care and not talked yet with anyone, the chance sinks to nada.

Sir Ralph, in case you didn't notice, I characterized the idea as a long shot when I proposed it. But it seemed worth a try.

	08-06-2003 03:28									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's a lot nicer, actually. Very honest, respectable... gives us the best possible chances of success, IMHO. I'm not entirely happy with the sentence that tells them that they might someday become a minor power in the game, but we have to be honest with them about it.

	08-06-2003 04:14									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Same reaction as Shiber... well written, but drop the word minor.

Same reaction as SR... 10% at best.

And I'm not so sure this can't eventually come back to bite us in public.

	08-06-2003 04:29									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Edited to changed "respectable minor power" to "reasonably respectable power". (I don't want to sound like I'm trying to persuade them that they can accomplish more than is realistic.)

	08-06-2003 04:34									#28
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Theseus And I'm not so sure this can't eventually come back to bite us in public.

Agreed. On the other hand, anything else we might do instad could also come back to bite us. "Anything you do can and will be used against you in the court of public opinion."

	08-06-2003 07:21									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hmmmm when do we need to answer them by.....?

Mss

	08-06-2003 13:18									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Since noone objected to Nathan's message, I suggest that we send it.
Should Nathan send it, since he wrote it, or should Zeit send it, since he's the chief diplomat?