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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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More messages (resulting in yet another change in plans):
quote:
Rob,
the usual short begin-of-work message from me:
- We can't get to CoS1 next turn, because our forces aren't concentrated in CdL but more to the north. We didn't put them in cities, because those could get investigated by Monkey. So we can arrive at the positions mentioned by you one turn later, i.e. like in your previous plan. Sorry about this, but as I said I didn't have the opportunity to check it myself.
- Construction will be there in 23 turns (should be 230 BC, I said 20-something).
- Your timing on the end of the horse/iron deal sounds about right.
- Monkey asked us for a research partnership concerning Republic, i.e. one researches it at 100%, the other funds him to cover the losses. They said that CoD wants "stiff prices" (hehe). I recommended to decline this and to tell Monkey, that we can't wait so long and will buy it from you as soon as we have the money. This will also explain our government switch in a few turns (which means, btw, less warriors from CA, oh well). The time our forces go south is best spend on anarchy, later it could hurt us.
- I expect the worst from LL. I'm pretty sure they will let Monkey escape. Oh well, not that it matters much.
J.
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quote:
J,
Ok, so you will march into our territory on T96, reaching CoS1 on that turn. That's fine. I will hold up CoD's forces for one more turn then. This means both of our armies will reach the border to T99 (CoD's side of the border, but Monkey will see the stacks).
That will mean the barracks rush will occur one turn later, on T97 I believe, costing 132 gold. So if you could send us 132g on T97, we would appreciate it.
23 turns to construction, T117. Thanks for the info.
Why does it not matter if LL saves Monkey?
-Rob |
I will update orders.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Message to SR:
quote:
J,
I assume you know already, but just in case you didn't see them, we've got barbarian uprisings on our hands. 2 other civs have reached the next age, obviously. One of those uprisings is from a Camp south of Silkfest (22222 or something like that), east of a Monkeytown. Our warrior was on his way to nail the camp, but when he got next to it, he saw 16 horsemen in it.
Latin Lover have agreed to remove their warrior from our west coast, which is nice, and apparently they've moved their galley back north to go get him, which is fantastic. That galley was headed down towards Monkey. So I sent MZ a note suggesting that, in the spirit of friendship, they sail north since that will get them contact with another civ the fastest. If they go for it, we might still be able to prevent a Monkey escape. If not, we've still gained a couple of turns.
LL wanted to sell us Construction and Polytheism for the promise of a medieval tech. They told us they already have a deal for republic. I told them we already have a deal involving Polytheism & Construction and that perhaps it is best to wait until the next age to work out trades, so we are clear of our present deals. Python and CoD should discuss how we would like to proceed with tech trading now that LL (and of course other civs they know) are in the mix.
-Rob |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Messages back and forth:
quote:
Rob,
sorry for the late response. I posted your message in our threads yesterday and asked my successor (probably OctavianX) to take over this discussion, which is about what will happen after my demise. The reaction so far is zero. I will resign in 3 turns, when most of our army arrives at your southern border. With this level of activity in our team I fear the worst for our future, but I can't help it, I won't take it anymore to basically play a thoroughly commented PBEM with one "Looks good, keep up the good work" comment every five turns and the other turns without any response.
Already uprisings? That's unfortunate. They catch us off guard, since most of our troops are marching south and we haven't got much to fend off barbarian horsemen. And what will we do with our research? To continue the 40-turn pace might set us back 20 turns in research. Although, if we get contact to the rest of the world soon, this might not be a problem. May be we should concentrate our effort to gain those contacts.
J.
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quote:
J,
The lack of response from your team about finding you a successor is very unfortunate. If our ally sudden goes adrift just as we start a war, CoD will not be in a good situation.
The barbarians caught us off-guard as well, but luckily for us, we had just destroyed a camp to our west, so I do not think we have waves of barb horse on their way to CoD's lands. Almost all of our units are in the south, preparing to attack Monkey. We do, however, have a few chariots in the north that could potentially help you fend off the barbs if you need our help.
Regarding the tech situation, well, LL is open to selling Polytheism and Construction. We could buy those techs from them and then set up a research deal with them for the early middle ages, or we could research the techs ourselves with CoD researching and Python assisting with cash (you pay us 1/2 the cost of researching each tech, with devaluation factored in, and we research as fast as we can). I know that CoD can research Polytheism in 4 turns, I'm not sure about Construction. Whatever we do, I'd like it to be coordinated (not necessarily openly so) so that we get the best deals possible out of LL.
Let me know if you make any progress in finding a successor.
-Rob |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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Sent:
quote:
OctavianX & Sir Ralph:
CoD has the turn (T97). There are a couple of glitches in the war plan. Glitch number one is the money for Silkfest's barracks (132g). I thought you were going to send that for this turn. We can cover it for now, but could you send it next turn?
Second, we have 4 workers at Swindon1, mining. They will be able to move out of your way next turn. I figure that's fine, since your army is spread out over three tiles anyway. This gives you the opportunity to consolidate them at Ciao33. Please leave Swindon7 open next turn. Our workers are going west, and they need the road at Sw7 to get where they're going.
Things are otherwise fairly good. There are 16 barb horse down by our southern warriors. I expect our brave fellows will die badly between now and next turn. Unfortunately, my main worry is that those barb horse will serve to promote Numidian Mercs to elite just in time for the war. No matter.
It appears Latin Lover have picked up their warrior (who we had mostly surrounded) and are now sailing north, as I suggested they do. This will delay their contact with Monkey.
We project you will reach Silkfest (or SF11, which is in Monkey territory) on T101. It is our intention to gift you SF on T100, as we move our troops out that very turn, probably to attack Mandril.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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New messages:
quote:
Hello Arrian,
Sir Ralph has informed our team of his intentions to retire as chief turn player. I intend to take his post, , as well as chief diplomat representing our team to CoD.
I think that we can likely redirect some swords intended for our attack to defend the nothern flank. If we see any signs of a larger-than-expected barb attack, we would greaty appreciate the assistance.
Tech-wise, I think an assisted tech-research plan will work out well. A deal can be worked out as our options become clearer. I certainly would have no objections to paying half a tech's cost to CoD. The more coordinated we can work these thngs out, the better for the both of our teams, I believe.
132g has been sent to you, accepted.
We will also go ahead and aim to consolidate at Ciao-33 in preparation for the attack.
Lastly, I want to address the issue of the start of the war - what specifcally should be addressed in any sort of annoucment of declaration of war? Would it be public? What kind of tone would it have (serious, humorous, etc)? My only instinct is to make it a public one, at least one before Beta does anything to make us look excessively evil...
~Octavian X
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quote:
OctavianX,
Thanks for the update. Things seem to be moving ahead smoothly.
As for the "declaration of war" I had intended to send a PM to conmcb25 and leave it at that. I was going to avoid the public forum (if possible) for two reasons: first, because contact with the rest of the world has not yet been made as it was in PTWDGI, so we would in effect be giving up intelligence info to the others; and second because the last thing I want is to piss people off. My experience with the public forum, as a member of GS, has not been good. I'm sure you understand. If Monkey goes public, so be it, and I will take my lead from them. If they're humorous about it, so will I. If they are serious, then I will be too (and I will say little, hopefully).
I look forward to working with you during the war, and also in the aftermath, when you will be resettling the south and jumping your palace (I think CoD will also be palace jumping, so perhaps we can work through that together. I've never done it before).
-Arrian (Rob) |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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The message of woe:
quote:
Octavian,
I just checked our private forum, and saw something that perhaps changes the fates of our civs:
THE IRON DEPLETED, AND IS GONE FROM THE CONTINENT!!! CoD cannot upgrade our warriors.
We must have done something to displease the Random Number God, because He has unleashed His Holy Wrath (tm) upon us. We're screwed.
So here is the question... what will you do? Do you think you can take out Monkey essentially alone - and without any sword reinforcements? At this point, all CoD can do is send a pillaging expedition south on our galleys and hunt for any Monkey galleys. We could also lend you catapults (we have 2). Our offensive capability, however, is kaput without that iron. I assume the trade is cut, so we have our horsies back, so I can have our remaining chariots upgraded, but horsemen aren't going to fare very well against Numidians unless we have huge numbers, which we don't, due to the planned warrior -> sword upgrade.
A penny for your thoughts...
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Arrian,
I understand if you don't want to do anything in public. I still do lurk quite a bit at GS. It's just that DaveMcW had this interesting little picture of our first 'victory' over the apes that would've been funny in a public annoucement:
A private message will be fine.
As for the iron, we are discussing the situation right now in our private forum. We may just have to proceed as planned, unless we can get something worked out soon.
Lastly, I look forward to working with CoD as well. These next turns are sure to be interesting. 
~Octavian X
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quote:
Octavian X,
Ok. Here is CoD's pertinent order of battle, if it helps in your decision-making:
We have 1 swordsman completing soon in Silesia. In the south, we have 5 or 6 spears, 2 catapults (and we will most likely rush a 3rd out, since it's almost done anyway), 2 horsemen, 1 regular archer (we do have a veteran far to the southwest, but he's watching for barbs & Monkeys out there) and 12 veteran warriors  We also have 4 chariots up north, so whenever you can give us our horses back we can upgrade them to horsemen. In fact, if it will help the war effort, we could break the trade via you capturing our catapults.
My current plan, should the war proceed (I think it should, despite the problems) is to drop 1 horse + 3 spear (or maybe 2 horse + 2 spear, not sure yet) off from our galleys near Primate Central and pillage as many of Monkey's core tiles as we can. Our galleys should be useful later, since we know that Monkey has settled the island to their west, which we will need to deal with. I'm still not sure what to do with CoD's warriors. I loaded our 610bc save last night, zoomed out, cleared the map... and sat there for about 5 minutes, just staring. A continent this big, with all those hills & mountains, and not one source of iron? It's ridiculous (worse, say, than Stormia's lack of saltpeter). I'm surprised the iron didn't relocated somewhere else on our continent. Somebody out there has a whole lot of iron!
Anyway, let me know what you guys think about the war in general, and the horses in particular (when to break the trade, and whether or not you think a catapult transfer is worthwhile). The sooner CoD gets our horses back, the sooner we can upgrade our chariots and start building new horsemen. They're not the best units against Numidians, but they're sure better than warriors.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Arrian,
Ah... I was under the assumpting only CoD lost it's iron. If we're out of iron as well... wow...
As I've said, we're still discussing our options. We will almost definetly proceed with the attack. The way it looks right now, we'll end up consolidating our forces at some point, and unleashing their unholy fury all at once. From there, we will likely do the same as you are revert to horses and archers to take the second wave of the attack, if necessary. Hopefully, our bad RNG luck with the iron will make up for itself with good luck against the N. Mercenaries.
As for the horses, considering your situation with the iron, I don't think we'd have any objection to giving up the horses soon. Of course, that's pending our own discussion.
I do know I'm being indecisive, and I hate it when I do that. I hope I'll be able to give you a final word very soon.
~Octavian X |
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quote:
Octavian,
CoD never had our own iron. Yours was the only one on the continent (and our horse is the only one, unless you count the horse on the island Monkey has settled in the southwestern bay). You lent yours to us so we could upgrade our warriors. We were 2 turns away from that upgrade when it depleted.
I've put together a plan to get horseman production ramped up as fast as we can (including using a chunk of the gold we saved for upgrades on shortrushes). We can also spend some gold on additional catapults if need be - those can be useful against tough defenders like Numidians (or Immortals on mountains ).
What do you think of the catapult transfer as a method of breaking our trades? Since it would be done on your turn, Monkey would see us at war for a turn and know something was up, so this should be done RIGHT before you strike. We can move the catapults onto the war road directly into the path of your invasion force. Like I said, we have 2 now, and can easily rush a 3rd to completion.
So we're talking about a turn or two from now. Sound like a plan?
Also, CoD plans to begin Polytheism research next turn, at 5-turn pace (we could do 4, but there's a fairly significant deficit at that point). We should figure out how we want to work the tech situation...
As I recall, Python still owes CoD 4 research points from the old Republic <-> Math + Currency deal. We also gave WC & HBR in anticipation of getting Construction from you (and also for the war, obviously), since I think we needed Polytheism+WC+HBR+the 4 points in order to match Construction (even then, CoD might have been a tad short, and owed you gold or future research... I can check on that). Since then, however, we've discovered that our continent is lagging in tech. IIRC, you have ~20 turns left on Construction. Which means if we change nothing, CoD will have nothing to research for ~15 turns after Polytheism... and we will fall rather badly behind the rest of the world, save Monkey.
I don't know what Python's treasury looks like, but perhaps you could arrange to purchase Construction from LL for both of us? We can provide Polytheism, and then call things even and set up new trades for the next era. Speaking of which... I'm sure Python is going to devote a significant portion of its economy to resettlement of the south, building a FP in the north, and doing a palace jump (unless you get very lucky and get a leader). No doubt there will be a time when Python's research capabilities do not match CoD's, though we too will likely be REXing into the west/southwest and doing a palace jump ourselves. I have no problem with CoD bearing a larger share of the research burden while you get yourselfs set (within reason), provided that you are serious about a long-term partnership with us. Frankly, given the resouce situation, I think we may really need each other more than ever.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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To Octavian:
quote:
Octavian,
My current war plan:
This turn (T99, 590bc): we will be shuffling our southern forces, emptying Silkfest of troops (many of which are mostly useless vet warriors) and protecting the road from Monkey's site. We will also be rushing our 3rd catapult to completion in Corinth. We will leave Corinth23 clear for your stack.
FYI - One of our galleys, the HMS Frumpy, was attacked by a barb galley last turn and taken down to 1hp. It has been sent to Plymouth to heal, and this has slowed down our pillaging expedition, but not by that much.
T100 - You march to Cor23. We will now remove most of our spear wall along the Monkey border (all except the 1 at SF1, I think) and gift you Silkfest accepted. We will also move 3 catapults in behind your forces at Cor3.
T101 - You accept Silkfest, and then capture our cats, declaring war on us and breaking our horse trade. You then march the bulk of your forces to Silkfest11 (invading Monkey territory). This is an unroaded tile - those workers of yours need to get a road in there in order to bring up the catapults. Send us peace accepted. We accept peace, and send you a RoP accepted. We upgrade our remaining chariots to horsemen. The HMS Frumpy and its sister ship (the Dumpy, I believe) set sail with 3 spears & 1 horse aboard. Finally, our scout in the south, who is sitting on a hill just next to the bit of Monkey road that is in "neutral" territory (just north of Monkey's core), will move onto and cut the road.
T102 - You attack and destroy Monkey's hill town southwest of Silkfest. Your workers begin roading SF11. Your catapults, meanwhile, sit inside Silkfest. We move our newly upgraded horse (4) plus any new horses produced (at least 1, possibly 2, maybe even 3 with some careful shortrushing) to Swindon12.
T103 - Your forces probably rest on the ruins of Monkey's hill town. We move as many horses as we've got, plus a spear, a regular archer, maybe a vet warrior or two and our 1 vet sword, to Mandril6 (via the road, which is why I'd like your cats to stay inside SF, so that the gold hill at SF4 is open for our units to move through).
T104 - We destroy Mandril. You being marching south again. Road at SF11 should be finished, your cats may join your main stack.
And so on. Our pillaging expedition will probably land at Primate Central69 on or about T106, maybe T107.
Tech: Hmm, not sure. 18 turns to Construction, 5 turns to Polytheism (we will start this turn). That leaves 13 turns of CoD going all tax (80-90%). I'm now leaning towards just waiting. Feudalism won't help us w/o iron. Monotheism... heh, we're not going to be building any cathedrals for a long while. Engineering would be nice, though. I think saving up and then having CoD go flat-out for Engineering starting on T117 might be the best way to go. We have 2 libraries up, and I can see about a third, depending on how the war goes.
The Settler:
Please send him to Ciao 4441 (coastal, hill, next to fish). Just so we are all on the same page, it is my understanding that you guys need Silkfest for now as a barracks town in the south, but that after the war is won, you will give it back and we will build you a new city (possibly near where Monkey's hill border town is now) in exchange.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:29
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More messages:
quote:
Arrian,
In regard to your war plan, our C.O.WAR.D chief DaveMcW has made two suggestions, both of which I believe merit a little thought.
-We might not need Silkfest at this point. There's little we can do without the ability to upgrade anything, except for our own faster movement though the area.
-CoD horsemen should stay close to our swords, if possible. Since the swordmen's value has jumped due to the lack of iron, we should try to preserve them as best we can, using the horses to soften the Numbidian Mercenaries up.
In other news, we've met up with an LL galley. They send greetings, along with an offer for a tech purchase. This is what they said:
quote:
What about tech cost X 12? ie:
Myst....48 gold
Cons...240 gold |
We're thinking that it's a good deal - we certainly can afford both the prices they're asking. Any thoughts on that sort of trade?
We also plan to ask LL for a NAP, simply to keep them out of our affairs when the Monkey Wars begin.
Engineering also sounds like a solid plan to me. Removing the river movement restriction will certainly help in our war effort, and we have a good fill of luxes at the moment.
~Octavian X
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quote:
Octavian,
Dave makes some good points. I always kinda wondered why you guys wanted a southern barracks town. I figured upgrades were part of it, but also maybe a base to heal at, but with the iron gone it doesn't make much sense. Plus, with that gold hill, we're actually getting some revenue from that city!
I assume, then, that you guys will not be building us a city at Ciao4441, and we should reroute our settler team to that spot?
Do you plan on just going straight at Monkey's city (I always forget its name, the one southwest of Silkfest), or are you going to wait for your workers to road that last jungle tile so you can bring up the catapults? If you plan on waiting, then I think horseman support can be arranged (5-6 horsemen). But I'm not sure delaying the destruction of that hill city is a good idea.
Regarding the tech situation... woah, do you not yet have Mysticism? Did we not sell you that? Hmm, maybe we were planning on packaging that with all the other assorted flotsam and jetsam we put together to equal Construction.
240 gold for Construction isn't that bad, although I'd assume that comes with a NDA, which would mean you couldn't sell it to us. Can you ask about a package deal for the both of us? The original idea was CoD sells Python WC + HBR + Polytheism + whatever else was needed to match the cost of Construction (in research points). So if you can purchase Construction for the both of us, our original deal can still go through. Does that make sense?
Hmm, I just had a radical idea. Let me ask you this: does Python actually *need* construction in the next 20 turns? What if we did this: CoD negotiates with LL to purchase Construction (with Python's gold), with a standard 20-turn NDA (unless I'm mistaken about the NDA thing, I admit I'm assuming they want one... but I'd be shocked if they didn't). This allows CoD to begin Engineering research in 4 turns, when we finish Polytheism. You stay at max cash, we push research as fast as we can, and we do our best to split the cost of Engineering research down the middle. 20 turns later, when the NDA expires, we give you Construction and Engineering. Somewhere in the middle of all that, if the war is going relatively well, you can switch over to republic (unless I missed it and you already did that). Thoughts?
FYI - I will be on vacation all week next week. Basically, starting this evening, I will not have internet access for a full week. So please send messages to Cort Haus until my return. He plays the turns anyway.
-Arrian |
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05-02-2004 01:43
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