29-07-2003 17:03									#121
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I think last season with the 1x1's we basically played PBEM Challenge Ladder Rules (as they can count toward it) and as with PBEM C L rules, any can be varied by mutual consent (between adults )

	29-07-2003 23:00									#122
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keep the 2 AI's

	30-07-2003 00:56									#123
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i generally like the idea of leaving the specific settings up to the players. but im aware that some of the tie-breaker points might depend on it, so it might not be liked that way (is it ?).

personally i like Deity, max barbarians, ruins (and maybe wonders) ON, piracy/pillage ON, gigantic map and lots of AIs. oh, and donut world of course, which i would really insist on should we have overall binding settings.

	30-07-2003 04:27									#124
	Settings Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I can finally post again.

For settings, I am game to try most things. However, my preference would be:

No barbs (ie: no easy source of slaves)
No AI (once again, no easy source of slaves or cities)
wonders optional, but some if not all should be removed
ruins??? is there a way to remove them?
if piracy, then we have to be prepared to reload the games often as caravan counts are always a problem.
diety
huge or larger map
ancient to diamond
pollution off
If pollution is on, then modify for NO disasters.

Someone is going to have to explain how this 9* scoring thing works. With resyncs, how can you tell who is leading?

yoda

	30-07-2003 06:14									#125
	Suffering from ads?

[QUOTE]No barbs (ie: no easy source of slaves)
No AI (once again, no easy source of slaves or cities)
wonders optional, but some if not all should be removed
ruins??? is there a way to remove them?
if piracy, then we have to be prepared to reload the games often as caravan counts are always a problem.
diety
huge or larger map
ancient to diamond
pollution off
If pollution is on, then modify for NO disasters.[QUOTE]

Is there anything left? Sorry, but that sounds like an extremely boring game. This is supposed to be civ:ctp not chess!

	30-07-2003 06:44									#126
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yoda, this is a PBEM league (not on-line). I don't think you would be seeing any resyncs .

Does that change your mind about participation?

	30-07-2003 06:52									#127
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I think it would be good to use the ladder rules for the most part since the players have the most experience with these settings, and will probably be at there best game. If we pick something to far off the ladder settings we are liable to land in somebodies favorite situation which may be unfamiliar to everyone else.

	30-07-2003 08:04									#128
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quote: Originally posted by checkMate Yoda, this is a PBEM league (not on-line). I don't think you would be seeing any resyncs . Does that change your mind about participation?

LOL... no! I guess I will have to brush up on slavery... LOL When will this start?

yoda

	30-07-2003 08:45									#129
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

On or about August 2nd or 3rd we would start

	30-07-2003 08:47									#130
	Got spare money?

Below is a slightly modified version of the PBEM ladder
standard rules. Players may negotiate any of these settings before the game starts. However, if one of the players wants the standard setting for any given item his will must prevail in the negotiation. Therefore these rules are important and can be enforced by any player.

Now I would like to hear *strong* opinions in this thread about which of the rules should be changed and exactly what they should be changed to. But don't ramble, just list each disputed line one time with your suggested setting. This suggestion will become one of the poll options for the line item. One suggestion per line item please. Make sure your list of suggestions is clear. I.E. seperate your suggested list from the campaigning effort.

Each item that is challenged as stated above will be put up for a three day poll starting Aug 1. The poles will be on a line by line basis of this list below (one poll per line item with the below standard as one option along with all of the alternate suggested options.)

For the wonders line item, suggestions should be in the form of a list encompassing all wonders. I.E. all wonders off. Or all wonders on except for a,b,c.... Or no wonders except for x,y,z...


Should any line item be added to this list?


The list
===============================
Map size: Huge
Map Creation: Random
Difficulty: Diety (changed: this was Emporer in ladder)
Barbarians: Ruins Only
Ruins: Off Limits -- No Entry (to disable ruins on initial random map -- modify ctp_data/default/gamedata/const.txt file -- set RUINS_CHANCE_PER_BOX from 1.0 to 0.0)
Wonders: No Wonders Allowed except for Wormholes and Emancipation. (changed this was *no* wonders in ladder)
Earth World
Bloodlust Off
Pollution On
1x1 Number of Civilizations: 4 (2 Human Players, 2 Computer Players)
2x2 Number of Civilizations: 4 (all human) (added)
Cheats - No cheats. (added to ladder settings)
Farm under city is not a cheat. (added to ladder settings)
Pillaging On (added)
Pirating On (added)
Standard CTP (i.e. no mods) (added)

Map:
Wet/Dry 50%
Warm/Cold 50%
Ocean/Land 50%
Island/Continent 50%
Uniform/Diverse 50%
Few/Many Goods 50%
One Settler
100 Gold

One note on the no ruins setting. After changing that text file, and generating the map. You can change the text file back to normal. Thr ruins will be permanently off of your map. So the super league game will be free of ruins for the whole game with just the one time modification.

Any new games you start will have ruins if you change the file back.

Last edited by checkMate on 30-07-2003 at 09:28

	30-07-2003 08:55									#131
	Remove this text

so we use these settings as standard, but for each game players can agree on different settings ?

	30-07-2003 09:29									#132
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Yes, but a player can demand the standard setting for any line item.

That is the key to the standard.

	30-07-2003 09:30									#133
	Inflate your Upload Space

BTW re-read the long post about the standard settings.
If you read it before you read this one, I may have changed it. But I won't change it again.

	30-07-2003 10:01									#134
	Restarts Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What about restarts? The host normally gets the best starting terrain. Who gets to host?

yoda

	30-07-2003 14:05									#135
	Re: Restarts Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by yoda What about restarts? The host normally gets the best starting terrain. Who gets to host? yoda

3rd and 4th slots for human players should be a rule I reckon. ("Host" equates to slot 1, and to a lesser extent slot 2 in pbem). I prefer no restarts, but I would tolerate a "restart within 10 turns of start allowed to be called for by each player twice only", or some such.

	30-07-2003 17:09									#136
	Inflate your Upload Space

I have worked out a rotation so that every player is blue, orange, green, pink etc... in different games. It is not completely equal but pretty close. If we had nine teams this would be completely equal for all team.

I'll post some details on that later tonight. I was still
trying to work out the pairings for the 1x1's. Not as
easy as it sounded till I tried doing it for a while.

For now I am working out pairing tables with players
named as A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2 .... etc.. After the
tables are worked out. Names will be given to the A1,
A2 etc randomly.

	30-07-2003 18:49									#137
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by checkMate I was still trying to work out the pairings for the 1x1's. Not as easy as it sounded till I tried doing it for a while.

hehe, for 6 people upwards it gets rather complicated, right ?

	31-07-2003 00:40									#138
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Below are schedules for the 2x2 and 1x1 games

Math, please take a look to see whether I botched it.
Particularly the 1x1.

These schedules are generalized. So if they are correct then
all I have to do is draw names out of a hat to assign real names to
A1 A2 B1 B2 etc.... to get started.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/checkMate/slII.pdf

Last edited by checkMate on 31-07-2003 at 09:59

	31-07-2003 02:51									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

spoink

Last edited by checkMate on 31-07-2003 at 03:01

	31-07-2003 13:12									#140
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A precursory glance from this side looks good... but we need moderation from Mr. Maths Teacher over there before we can get the ball off the tee

	31-07-2003 14:26									#141
	Inflate your Upload Space

looking at it this very moment...

checkmate, why did you sometimes enter first and second ("revenge") game both in the same round, e.g. A1/F1 and A2/F2 are both in round 1, although A2/F2 is the "rematch/revenge" for A1/F1. i dont see any mathematical problems why this shouldnt be possible. but then again, i dont know all the criteria that you wanted your system to match...

another question i have is what if the number of AIs varies ? (as players may agree to use any settings they like)
i think you mentioned that, but i cant find your post anymore.

i suggest that your system simply prescribes the order and relative distance of the human players, so that additional AIs are evenly added between the human players. (maybe that even was your idea after all )

quote: Originally posted by checkMate Yes, but a player can demand the standard setting for any line item. That is the key to the standard.

in that case i would really like Donut world to be standard.

another note on the standard settings, checkmate. i really like your way of introducing the polls.
everyone makes suggestions and then for each line item seperately these suggestions are voted on.

here are my suggestions:

Map size: Gigantic
Map Creation: Random
Difficulty: Diety
Barbarians: Restless Hordes
Ruins: On
Wonders: On, but each participating player may 'veto' out one specific wonder (for 2x2 games) or up to 2 specific wonders (1x1 games) before the start of the game. wormhole sensor and emancipation act though are always On.

Donut World
Bloodlust Off
Pollution On
1x1 Number of Civilizations: 8 (2 Human Players, 6 AIs)
2x2 Number of Civilizations: 8 (4 human) (4 AIs)
Cheats - No cheats.
Farm under city bug allowed.
Pillaging On
Pirating On
Standard CTP (no mods)

Map:
Wet/Dry 50%
Warm/Cold 50%
Ocean/Land 30% (thats what we have on Earth, right ? )
Island/Continent 50%
Uniform/Diverse 100% (slider to diverse)
Few/Many Goods 50%
One Settler
100 Gold

	31-07-2003 14:29									#142
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

for the polls on the slider settings, it might be fairer to have each player name their percentage and then just take the average...

so if you get outvoted on 30% you dont have to live with 80% but get your average at 40%.

	31-07-2003 14:30									#143
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

just had to post this:
(from the apolyton 'between posts' site)

A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems.
-- P. Erdos

	31-07-2003 17:37									#144
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician looking at it this very moment... checkmate, why did you sometimes enter first and second ("revenge") game both in the same round, e.g. A1/F1 and A2/F2 are both in round 1, although A2/F2 is the "rematch/revenge" for A1/F1. i dont see any mathematical problems why this shouldnt be possible. but then again, i dont know all the criteria that you wanted your system to match...

Good point, I'll split those between round 1 and 2
presuming I can find them all.

quote: another question i have is what if the number of AIs varies ? (as players may agree to use any settings they like) i think you mentioned that, but i cant find your post anymore. I suggest that your system simply prescribes the order and relative distance of the human players, so that additional AIs are evenly added between the human players. (maybe that even was your idea after all )

I will try to convey that when I post the real pairings.

Your suggestions for the line items are duly noted, and will be part of the polling that starts Aug 1. I am surprised I don't see any other opinions there.

And yes we should go ahead and vote on the sliders the way you suggest.

	31-07-2003 17:49									#145
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I am surprised I don't see any other opinions there.

I was waiting for the polls to go up.
I agree with Math's settings except for donut world and farm under city.

	31-07-2003 17:53									#146
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quote: Originally posted by checkMate ... I am surprised I don't see any other opinions there.

I have a few opinions, which I will suggest within individual games, but I am happy with the settings as they are as default should there be disagreement.

(For example, I prefer to play with ruins on, as I think they are an intrinsic part of the game. Likewise barbarians).

	31-07-2003 21:34									#147
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I will play with most settings, doesnt really matter to me

	01-08-2003 03:45									#148
	Tired of ads?

i say settings 50%
blood lust on no AI's in the 2x2 2 AI's in 1x1
i like doughnut world no on farm under city
but i am adaptable.

	01-08-2003 04:10									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

gumpold, there will only be polls
with items that you guys suggests.

However, I am going to put up a poll for all of the slider settings. I.E. wet vs. dry. That way we can use the average value of the poll respondants. This was Math's suggestion.

	01-08-2003 06:14									#150
	settings Tired of ads?

After looking at the setting suggestions, here is my opinion:

gigantic map
pollution on
bloodlust off
diety
ruins only for barbarians
turn ruins off
random map
earth world
50
50
30
50
70
50
1 settler
100 gold
no wonders except wormhole and eman.
2x2, no AIs
1x1, no AIs to a maximum of 2 if players agree

The other setting I would like to see is to turn disasters off (fix similar to ruins).

what about unit exclusions? Nukes for example?

yoda