14-08-2003 01:50									#151
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We need to start getting them counter measures soon so we can effectively fight the problems, more effectively than just hanging on.

	14-08-2003 02:03									#152
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The real problem is the class of people you deal with daily.

	14-08-2003 02:07									#153
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Sloww, well I feel that this system did work for us for a long time and it was good times. Now we need to think about radical changes to counter problems we have and are about to have. If we don't do that, I see that we're heading for serious trouble and have to do it later, but with greater cost. People are on the train to hell, it's still ok, and they throw away all the 'whiners' because they have so much faith, that the train will take them where they want to go. Oh no.. that train is going straight to hell my friends!

	14-08-2003 02:17									#154
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It will take a major event to keep the U.S. from socializing some things.
Health care being at the forefront.

	14-08-2003 02:18									#155
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand It will take a major event to keep the U.S. from socializing some things. Health care being at the forefront.

recession could do it. if the republicans run the deficit much higher the democrats wont have a way to get the money to socialize things.

but otherwise yes I agree.

	14-08-2003 03:32									#156
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quote: We didn't bring the world Linux. Linus Torvalds was a Finn, sure. He worked the OS in Uni here, sure. But it's hardly a Finnish thing. It's more like international project, that happened to have a Finn in lead. That's all there is to it. Sure, it contributes to the world, but it's because of the effort of international programming etc community.

This is why you just gotta love them Finns.

Lets see what a typical response to:

quote: ..You gave world LINUX..

would be in some other countries:

GERMAN: Not surprising at all. Our technical superiority to the rest of the world is well known! (I am not a Nazi for saying this I hope)

HUNGARIAN: Yes, yes we did. Linus Torvards is an Ugro-finn, not just Finn but you don't read about that in the paper, do you?

ISRAELI: Yes we invented it but it is a secret, for gods sake..

GREEKMAN: Sure we invented Linux too! C++ language derives heavily from Greek, take for example the for loop, in Illiad..

	14-08-2003 03:40									#157
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God do I really have to explain the myriad different forms of socialism, meaning that you have to be more precise about this?

	14-08-2003 05:00									#158
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quote: You point out the flaws, but have no cures. Thats what I call typical righ wing/populist rant.

That's funny . That's what we American rightists say to most of the lefties on this site. You point the flaws but have no solutions. Typical left wing/commie rants .

	14-08-2003 05:02									#159
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VetLegion, there's a joke, I can't remember how it goes exactly but something like this:

American, German and Finn saw a cow.

American: How can I make business out of this?

German: How can I make the cow more efficient?

Finn: What does the cow think of me?

It's funny because it's true.

	14-08-2003 05:04									#160
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@ vetty

	14-08-2003 05:08									#161
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Sweden has many of the same problems as Finland which would be expected since we share a very similar socialist ("social democratic/third way/welfare state") system: High taxes, drop in quality of education, drop in wealth (relative to other countries), under-working over-educated youth, people living off the system out of laziness, rampant tax evasion, poor integration of immigrants, class society, aging population, an ever lesser part of the population is working, a larger part is away from work sick, etc. Add Euro-phobia to all of that. I don't want to rant (anymore), but although I haven't read all of Pekka's posts and can't say I agree with them letter by letter, I still agree with the feeling of frustration and slow decline.

Sure, we have good things too (many the same as Finland) but I don't wanna cut up my post with a long disclaimer.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And as I pointed out, Finland is far from being mediocre. In point of fact, made in Norway / Sweden / Finland / Denmark usually means you are getting a high quality product. Volovo / Saab / Nokia / Haagen-Daaz / Lurpak etc.

Häagen-dazs is American! Still good though (all of those that you mentioned).

	14-08-2003 05:12									#162
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Kitschum, agreed. Every system has it's problems though, even the same problems but to me what counts is how we can counter these problems and work them out. I just feel our system is getting outdated and we need to do some changes around sooner than later, and better sooner than later.

Yeah, Volvo, Nokia, Saab.. nice quality things you can't afford here .

	14-08-2003 05:15									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka VetLegion, there's a joke, I can't remember how it goes exactly but something like this: American, German and Finn saw a cow. American: How can I make business out of this? German: How can I make the cow more efficient? Finn: What does the cow think of me? It's funny because it's true.

Yeah we (Swedes) do this too. The newspapers are filled with stories of people who have "made it" abroad or how well Sweden does in international lists or comparisons of various kinds. We love sports just for this reason too. But when we fall behind suddenly there's lot less publicity!

	14-08-2003 05:22									#164
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I'm sorry, could I just spontaniously combust now?

You people have one of the highest living standard in the world. Your social democratic welfare is a role model for Europe (yeah despite its problems) and sure every country has its problems but at least dont complain in front of us!

I sincerely believe you wouldnt last an hour in our countries. Im amazed we ourselves manage to survive.

	14-08-2003 05:28									#165
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An hour? That's a pretty rough prediction .

Yeah, of course I have a silver spoon stuck up in my ass, and I get everything by just snapping fingers.

	14-08-2003 05:28									#166
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I would offer to trade you countries Pekka, but Finland is too cold, and I don't speak Finnish.

	14-08-2003 05:30									#167
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Oh great, an army of 'I have it so much worse'. Who are the whiners now?

If you have it bad, then get your butt out of there. Come here for example.

	14-08-2003 05:31									#168
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I'm sorry, could I just spontaniously combust now? You people have one of the highest living standard in the world. Your social democratic welfare is a role model for Europe (yeah despite its problems) and sure every country has its problems but at least dont complain in front of us! I sincerely believe you wouldnt last an hour in our countries. Im amazed we ourselves manage to survive.

It needs to be sustained, and I don't think it can be without serious change. There's a big difference from the days of stereotype (50s to early 70s) and now. There are less people working and more people who could work who don't. And Sweden isn't so much ahead of Europe as falling behind.

	14-08-2003 05:33									#169
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Ah Pekka... I invite you for just a week in Greece. But you'll have to live like the avergae Greek. Running off and trying to fend off huge bureoacracy and psychotic employees in public services... trying to penetrate one of europe's ugliest, most polluted and dense populated cities, operating in a society where the "social contract" (i hope you know what I mean) is NOT a part of the social collective consciousness, where the average pay is half of that of finland but the taxes are about the same, where getting a job is mainly based on who your daddy knows and not on your degrees or expertise, where corruption reigns supreme and everyone's dreaming of getting the hell out of here and then we can talk.

You'll go back screaming to your little Finland kissing the ground the moment you arrive at the custums

	14-08-2003 05:36									#170
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paiktis22, *SShhh* People in Iraq might hear that... they have it worse than you do.

Get my point?

	14-08-2003 05:39									#171
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No I don't actually. Sure the Iraquis have it worse and sure the comparison with Iraq only proves my point

	14-08-2003 05:41									#172
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Sure it proves your point, but it also proves my point .

If something is not working like it is supposed to work, why shouldn't we then go ahead and try to make it better for ourselves? It's not like it's an international affair, where we must consider the ones doing worse and then feel bad about ourselves trying to improve. It has got nothing to do with it, and if we always thought that way, then we will never amount to anything great.

And when we are doing better and better ourselves, we also have a better position to help the ones that don't have it so good.

	14-08-2003 05:45									#173
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Of course. But to whine is still too provocative

	14-08-2003 05:46									#174
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Ah Pekka... I invite you for just a week in Greece. But you'll have to live like the avergae Greek. Running off and trying to fend off huge bureoacracy and psychotic employees in public services... trying to penetrate one of europe's ugliest, most polluted and dense populated cities, operating in a society where the "social contract" (i hope you know what I mean) is NOT a part of the social collective consciousness, where the average pay is half of that of finland but the taxes are about the same, where getting a job is mainly based on who your daddy knows and not on your degrees or expertise, where corruption reigns supreme and everyone's dreaming of getting the hell out of here and then we can talk. You'll go back screaming to your little Finland kissing the ground the moment you arrive at the custums

So come along, as an EU citizen you shouldn't have much of a problem immigrating. But what you're saying is true in a sense. I'm amazed how well the beaurocracy works here sometimes, except of course those dealing with (higher) education. Then suddenly it's chaos, everyone's unreachable, phones are blocked and students are kicked off their courses for no reason, and so on. I'm sure I promised not to rant too much above, I keep forgetting...

	14-08-2003 05:46									#175
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You can take it as whining.. I admit, sometimes I sound like a whining little *****. I might be too passionate when I start putting my fingers to the keyboard and think of every situation where I have been treated unfair .

But still, I think my points are not whining. I'm not whining about my personal situation. That would be whining. I'm attacking our system.

	14-08-2003 05:49									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Kitschum So come along, as an EU citizen you shouldn't have much of a problem immigrating. But what you're saying is true in a sense. I'm amazed how well the beaurocracy works here sometimes, except of course those dealing with (higher) education. Then suddenly it's chaos, everyone's unreachable, phones are blocked and students are kicked off their courses for no reason, and so on. I'm sure I promised not to rant too much above, I keep forgetting...

neway for an american to become norwegian? cuz that'd make a great backup plan.

	14-08-2003 05:52									#177
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yavoon, I just had a great idea for a movie. Two guys from different situations and different parts of the world meet in the internet. They chat a lot, and then they get the idea to change places. They're pretty lonely, so their families will not notice a thing. They look alike, and then they have some plastic surgery or what ever to make it even more convicing. Then they just simply meet, exchange passports, jobs etc etc, the whole nine yards, and then the movie would focus on both of their lives now.. it could have some funny moments, or be a total comedy, or then it can be more serious film. Damn, I think this is a great idea for a movie.

	14-08-2003 05:57									#178
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon neway for an american to become norwegian? cuz that'd make a great backup plan.

Dunno about Norway, but I hear it can be tricky coming to Sweden from outside of the EU/EEA. If you can arrange for a job before arriving you might be able to arrange something. But no guarantees, since they're pretty strict even on immigrants coming here to work (that is what you were planning on, right? ), for some retarded reason.

	14-08-2003 05:59									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Kitschum Dunno about Norway, but I hear it can be tricky coming to Sweden from outside of the EU/EEA. If you can arrange for a job before arriving you might be able to arrange something. But no guarantees, since they're pretty strict even on immigrants coming here to work (that is what you were planning on, right? ), for some retarded reason.

well I figure if I ever get tired of the grind. I could sell my stuff, get a nest egg. move to norway pickup welfare. sure I couldn't fly aroudn the world, but I could drive places! and there are cute women up there right? lotsa beer. lil cold but I'll manage.

	14-08-2003 06:03									#180
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yavoon, I don't think it's that simple to come in and start picking up welfare . If it was, then we'd be full of foreigners doing it.

If you're serious about it, it would give you a good start to a) learn the language at least so you can survive b) learn whole lots of stuff about the country you're going in, they always like it when you know a lot about them c) try to get connections there before going, internet is now good tool for that.. you never know who does what and can help you out, naturally because you're such a nice guy, you'll return that favour nicely d) learn the laws and the rules about this, so you can find what suits you e) get yourself that nest egg. Helps when you have some money, don't come broke f) if possible, it's best to have a job ready. They'll be able to help you out with lots of stuff like a place to live or at least give you advices. People like you because you are not coming to spend anyones money, but working hard and contributing to the society.

Those are few things that will help you along the way.