07-11-2003 00:40									#271
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I think that we should go ahead with the Fort City

If Trip is worried about a counterattack, we can have some of that road work that is North of Catch Razed. That would slow them down somewhat and they could only attack and NOT retreat.


E_T

	07-11-2003 01:27									#272
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Here is what I think we should do

Raze the tiles that are marked with an X. No matter if we do build that Fort city or not, it keeps GCA from coming around from behind us.

If we do build the Fort City, our Horses can quickly raze the one that is 8-8 of catch without any penalty.

The seige of Catch is going to be a multi turn affair and we should have someplace that some units can retreat to to start healing.

Having the roads razed, they can only hit the fort with fast movers and they would not be able to Retreat.

Plus, having the fort, they can NOT tell how many of our units are in that city, only the top one.



E_T

	07-11-2003 03:51									#273
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I will agree to the construction of a fort city there (as my orders reflect) but only on the condition that we pop Walls in the city the turn we build it. We could be going over hills providing us with an extra 1.2 points of defense always but instead we're risking 2 turns on flat ground. We will need Walls to protect ourselves after that.

Afterwards we can build a road at Catchopolis 8-7 which will allow us to move from the fort city to Catchopolis 7 in a single turn. In addition, we can use our Catapults to bombard from that tile and destroy GCA tile improvements before we're ready to begin the actual assault on Catchopolis.

	07-11-2003 05:49									#274
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Okay, this should work even without popping Walls.

We build the city in 2 turns and move the majority of the defensive units in the area (6/9) one tile further south with the Catapults and the Workers. We build a road on that hill tile (2 turns to complete) and bombard Catchopolis 8 and 8-9. With those tiles bombarded (and the roads destroyed) they will be unable to attack the fort city even with Horsemen. After the tiles are pillaged we can move the entire army to Catchopolis 8-7 (fort city 2).

GCA will have to attack next turn and move back to Catchopolis 8, then move to Catchopolis and fortify, then heal, then on the 4th turn they'll be able to attack again. By then we should definitely have the road tiles bombarded.

	07-11-2003 05:56									#275
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The actual siege of Catchopolis should begin on turn 136. That is the first turn we'll have all of our units assembled at Catchopolis 7 and ready to attack (16 MI, 12 Horse, 9 NM, 13 Catapults, 2 Warriors - total of 52 units).

	07-11-2003 12:00									#276
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I still don't know what you are going to do with all those horses against fortified pikes, but you are the general

I wish we had more MIs.

Last edited by Tiberius on 07-11-2003 at 12:05

	07-11-2003 12:15									#277
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The horse's could be used to pick off retreating units.

	07-11-2003 12:21									#278
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But so many? And are we going to have enough MIs for the assault on Catchopolis?

	07-11-2003 12:32									#279
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The Horses will be used to soften up GCA Pikes (their Pike Army in particular). They have the ability to retreat 58% of the time and will probably do 1 or 2 HP damage each. However, added together that's enough to kill the Army and more.

I ran a sim the other day (which I will post soon) which had 10 Horses. Using the 13 Catapults I managed to knock Catchopolis down to size 6 and do 2 damage to the Pike Army. After that I managed to kill the GCA Pike Army with little trouble, losing only 2 Horsemen with 3 retreating, 1 victorious with another 4 left to continue attacking against other Pikes (which weren't represented in my sim... I only had the Pike Army). This was all with 10 Horses. We will have 12 available for the attack.

That leaves the full cadre of 16 MIs to go in afterwards, plus 9 NMs. As long as we don't run into bad luck we should do rather well.

	07-11-2003 12:39									#280
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Ah, then you are a lucky general I'd have probably lost half of the horses in the assault without killing the pike army.

Let's hope for the best then (but I still wish we had, say, 2 or 3 more MIs instead of 2 or 3 horses).

	07-11-2003 13:37									#281
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We do know that GCA like to use a lot of horses, so the horse against horse option is always available...

E_T

	07-11-2003 13:44									#282
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But they have lots of pikes, too, and MIs are better against pikes.

Oh well, just my 2 cents.

	07-11-2003 13:55									#283
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When we were building units we didn't know how the face of battle would go. Yes, MIs have a greater shock value but Horsemen are more flexible with their greater movement and ability to retreat. Since the future was unknown flexibility was paramount, since we already had ~20 MIs in the field.

	07-11-2003 19:04									#284
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Horsies are a lot like bombard units when it comes to battles like these: they'll knock off a hp here and there and most will run away. Some will actually win.

But the MIs are crucial for actually finishing the bad guys off.

-Arrian

	07-11-2003 20:44									#285
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When I played the save just before it struck me just how HUGE that stack is for an early Medieval war. With GCA's forces being estimated as smaller and smaller all the time, my gut feeling is that we will take them down even without superior strategy. Call it a farewell present to this outgoing Consul - I can see our armies surging forth to the greatest victory we have ever had.

	07-11-2003 22:31									#286
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After we take Catch & BoP, what will be next?? I would like to see some rough outline as to this sometime. It depends on how safe any cities that we build in the south will be.

E_T

	09-11-2003 03:20									#287
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I'd suggest using the Horsies BEFORE the Cats.

	09-11-2003 03:34									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'd suggest using the Horsies BEFORE the Cats.

We need to use the Cats to reduce Catchopolis down to size 6 otherwise GCA will get a +50% defense bonus. The Horses would be chewed up pretty nicely fighting Pikes with a defense of 6.75...

	09-11-2003 03:34									#289
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Why Theseus? Wouldn't it be better if the Cats gave the Horsemen a better chance of victory?

	09-11-2003 03:35									#290
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Agreed.
With a bit of luck, it saves us a lot of trouble and a lot of horses.

	11-11-2003 19:40									#291
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Having some trebuchets would be nice right about now, eh? With the PTW bombard rules, though.

-Arrian

	11-11-2003 20:45									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Having some trebuchets would be nice right about now, eh? With the PTW bombard rules, though. -Arrian

I've been quietly begging the gods to somehow magically deliver the C3C bombardment rules and trebuchets since we started this war, but obviously I wasn't going to talk about the new bombardment rules before the game came out

Then again, my C3C medieval armies tend to be rather heavy with trebuchet stacks

What can I say? I already tended to build a lot of artillery in stock Civ3 and PTW... C3C has only encouraged this

	11-11-2003 20:56									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I still don't know what you are going to do with all those horses against fortified pikes, but you are the general I wish we had more MIs.

* Dominae remembers a debate about this some time ago...

	11-11-2003 21:19									#294
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...which AFAIR never reached an official conclusion, yet we are building bunch of horses. I must have missed something.

	11-11-2003 23:07									#295
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Horses because they can get to the front faster

It takes atleast 5 to 6 turns for a slow mover to get to the front.

E_T

	11-11-2003 23:09									#296
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(I think I just posted this not too long ago, but...)

We didn't know how soon/long it would be before the war ended and building more MIs which may never see the decisive battle was determined to be wasteful. On the other hand, Horsemen would be almost assured of being able to reach the battlefield in time to make a difference, even if it was a limited one.

7 turns to the front + 4 turns to build is a very inefficient way to get units to where they need to be. In contrast Horses take only 3 to build and 3 to the front... almost twice as fast.

	11-11-2003 23:15									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Trip (I think I just posted this not too long ago, but...) We didn't know how soon/long it would be before the war ended and building more MIs which may never see the decisive battle was determined to be wasteful. On the other hand, Horsemen would be almost assured of being able to reach the battlefield in time to make a difference, even if it was a limited one. 7 turns to the front + 4 turns to build is a very inefficient way to get units to where they need to be. In contrast Horses take only 3 to build and 3 to the front... almost twice as fast.

I definatly agree. The MI's we build may never reach the battlefield. Plus it wastes valuable turns

	12-11-2003 00:15									#298
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Last I checked (just now, actually), it's turn 13 of the war. We had this debate just around turn 1, where there were a couple of builds on units already going. According to my count, that means Medieval Infantry completed between turns 2-6 (more, since we're taking a bit to regroup now) would be plenty useful in this war.

The speed of Horsemen make it easier to plan the war, but do not exactly our position stronger (as we're now feeling).

I find it quite funny that the main arguments at the time for Horsemen were that 1) they were going to be really useful, and 2) we would be building units we could upgrade to Knights. Now, the main argument is that they get to the front faster. On all counts I still think Medieval Infantry was the right call.

Anyway, no point in dwelling on this, since we're going to win no matter what (well, barring extreme GCA luck...oh, crap).




Dominae

	12-11-2003 23:04									#299
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Yes, victory will be ours.

	13-11-2003 06:53									#300
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All the extreme GCA luck has done is postpone our victory.