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ZargonX is offline ZargonX
Emperor
Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 18:38
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However, also keep in mind that even in the event of a close victory (or even a close defeat), that we will have much more capacity to replace our troops than GCA will. Sure, it might throw off production plans, but ultimate victory will still be ours.

That said, let's kick those punks back to where they came from!!!

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
Emperor
of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 18:54
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The sequence of what units attack when to take maximum advantage of our % chances of victory may indeed be called for. Beyond that, there isn't anything we could do but cheat, and we aren't going to cheat.

As for the timing, we're really sorta stuck. If we wait for reinforcements, we'll likely be facing pikemen rather than spearmen and medieval infantry rather than swordsmen. The fact that they have the Great Library means we really must strike now and destroy as many of their troops as we can before they can upgrade them to pikes.

That said, this is the point in the war where having more catapults would come in EXTREMELY handy for raising our MIs chance of victory in each individual combat, thus reducing our losses in the war overall...

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 19:13
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Gosh I'm glad we kept our Horsemen count to a minimum.




Dominae

BigFurryMonster is offline BigFurryMonster
Emperor
EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 20:01 Visit BigFurryMonster's homepage!
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From the above I conclude that we can destroy the city walls with our catapults.

I've never run into such a situation. Do catapults automatically aim for the walls, instead of knocking a few hp off a defending unit?

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 20:17
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The only time I've been in this situation was as the defender (battle of Inchon, PTW Demogame I). As I recall, the Voxians were successful in destroying walls (which GS had just rushed ) with a few cat shots.

-Arrian

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 22:30
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Question: What happens if we open the turn and they've upgraded to pikes?

I agree with NYE they should be retreating to Catchopolis, but I also agree with Trip it looks like they're holding here. So I'm beginning to think the worst...

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 22:46 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kloreep
Question: What happens if we open the turn and they've upgraded to pikes?

I agree with NYE they should be retreating to Catchopolis, but I also agree with Trip it looks like they're holding here. So I'm beginning to think the worst...

They have no Workers connecting the iron near Soda. They don't have a road 2 tiles within the iron near the center of their empire. The soonest they could have had Workers start on the iron near Dun na Anarchy would have been 90 BC. It will be 30 BC next turn, which is only 3 turns. They wouldn't have enough Workers to connect the iron in that short amount of time.

We will not see Pikes next turn.

Shiber is offline Shiber
Emperor
Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFurryMonster
I've never run into such a situation. Do catapults automatically aim for the walls, instead of knocking a few hp off a defending unit?


Walls take the first hits from land bombardments until they are taken down, and so do naval fortresses when your city is under naval bombardment.

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 14-10-2003 23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFurryMonster
I've never run into such a situation. Do catapults automatically aim for the walls, instead of knocking a few hp off a defending unit?


Yes, cats destroy walls first.

Edit: Shiber already posted, sry.

BigFurryMonster is offline BigFurryMonster
Emperor
EMPEROR of Cats
Feb 2002
time: 06:30
  Old Post 15-10-2003 00:06 Visit BigFurryMonster's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
They have no Workers connecting the iron near Soda.


I wouldn't be surprised if they kept on reloading the turn until a Firaxis bug turns up, giving them two free workers.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 15-10-2003 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by E_T
I'm not being defeatist, just realistic. It's going to be close. Another comparison to Waterloo, is from the winning side. Wellington had remarked, after the battle was won (and Napolian had lost), that "It was a close run thing" one of the closest things that he had seen in his life. THAT is where I'm getting my comparison from.

This battle will be the most decisive battle in the whole war and maybe even the whole game. We should NOT approach this battle lightly, stating that we will simply win (as a few others have recently), but we should fight this battle realizing that, yes we might not win, so that we fight that battle with our brains and then we can win it. The coorlation of forces is such that it could be anyones battle, but it also depends on what they will do between turns.

For when we open the save, before we take our opening shot, we need to be certain that we do what we can, to help insure our victory (except for reloading and playing ahead...), but to support our Consuls and MoW.

E_T


I understand where you are coming from, E_T, and you are correct that we should not approach this lightly. However, Waterloo is significant as a final defeat after which there is no tomorrow, so perhaps mentioning it would be a bit defeatist, yes?

I would rather say that should things go poorly for us, Wagram would be appropriate; if they go well, then Jena. In either case, the war will be far from over after our next turn. It may be easier for us from there on out, or it may be harder, but this certainly is not the last battle in either case.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 15-10-2003 06:24
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One other thing, since quotes are the rage...

"God is on the side of the big battalions" and those large formations are certainly ours in both quality and quantity.

Sharpe is offline Sharpe
King
Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:30
  Old Post 15-10-2003 06:56
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I suspect that we will win, the question is will it be a pyrrhic victory or not? Either way - at minimum we need to capture or destroy Algalord (sp?)...

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 15-10-2003 07:42
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I really don't want to jack this thread, but while thinking about Napoleonic quotes, there is one that is just sooooo appropriate to our situation. Here it is.

Soldiers! Forty centuries behold you!
Napoleon Bonaparte

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 24-10-2003 02:16 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Now that Algalord has been abandoned and their army has no doubt retreated to Catchopolis to heal to prepare for the grande finale it's time that we do so as well. Much of our force needs to heal so that is what we will do.

Our combined forces will prepare at the forest tile 8-8-8 of Catchopolis and heal there for 2 turns. Thus on turn 128 they move to the forest, fortify on 129, heal on 130 and we begin moving again on 131 with the 2nd HP addition. This will give us 17 total MIs all of which but 2 will be at 4/4 or 5/5. In addition to the MIs we will have 6 Horsemen, 7 NMs and 8 Catapults when we march southwards again on 131.

Last edited by Trip on 24-10-2003 at 08:33

CiverDan is offline CiverDan
Prince

Sep 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 26-10-2003 00:15 Visit CiverDan's homepage!
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I have seen comments about them being able to upgrade their spears and such. The good thing for us if that we probably wiped out a decent percentage of their spears in Alagord. I would be shocked if they had more than 3-4 in Catchopolis.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 08:41 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Things are looking somewhat grim. They got a leader recently, haven't started a wonder pre-build and have recently hooked up iron. We may very well see a 13/13 Pike Army in Catchopolis soon. Each Pike has a defense of 6.75 as long as Catchopolis remains above size 6. They will be hard to deal with.

To march against this we will have 17 MIs, 7 Horsemen, 7 NMs and 8 Catapults. It will likely take 6 MIs to take down the Pike Army alone. Hopefully the Catapults can assist in the siege/capture of Catchopolis. A long, drawn-out siege of Catchopolis probably won't be possible (barring us trying to knock Catchopolis down to size 6 before attacking). They will be able to heal any Cat damage we do and we don't have enough Catapults to inflict enough damage that it won't heal even without a Barracks.

Thus, we will use our Catapults against Catchopolis until we knock it down to size 6 (and Pike defense goes from 6.75 to 5.25). Then we can send in our waves. We may want to try a Horseman or two first (in a GCA move) to try and at least soften the Army up before sending in the MIs. We may get lucky like GCA has been against our NMs.

We resume the march south in 3 turns.

New Updated Plan in post below.

Last edited by Trip on 29-10-2003 at 09:35

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 09:34 Visit Trip's homepage!
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We will wait 5 turns (starting with the next), then begin marching south again on the 6th. More specifically, our main force will "circle" around to the north for a few turns to stay out of range of GCA Horsemen while the rest of our units assemble at Algalord 1-1.

In this time we will be able to muster 17 MIs, 8 Horsemen, 10 NMs and 12 Catapults (with one rushed in Nevermore next turn), all at full strength. This means we will attack Catchopolis 8 turns from now.

The Catapults can be used to shrink Catchopolis down and maybe hurt the Army a bit. Then the Horsemen can go in and further wear the Army down without us having to risk too many MIs. The MIs will then finish the Pike Army, and whatever other Pikes might be in the city (assuming it takes 2 MIs to kill 1 Pike). We will then have a few MIs left over to hit their offensive forces in the city and then some NMs to attack with as well.

Pikes in a size 7+ Catchopolis have a defense of 6.75. Pikes in a size 6- Catchopolis have a defense of 5.25. That's the difference between a 24% chance of victory and a 35.5% chance of victory for our 4/4 MIs.

Using this scheme we should be successful in capturing or at least gravely weakening Catchopolis to the point where we will be able to capture it the next turn or have them raze it after losing nearly all of the rest of their army.

Last edited by Trip on 29-10-2003 at 10:36

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 10:54
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What about sending "real" units to threaten their Iron once again? It would force them to tie up some units to defend it. Especially if we could either land on it, or next to it on a hill.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 10:59 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
What about sending "real" units to threaten their Iron once again? It would force them to tie up some units to defend it. Especially if we could either land on it, or next to it on a hill.

Make it so.

Orders, (once more) updated...

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:20
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Actually, I think that would be a mistake. We should concentrate everything we have for the decisive push.

Let the boat float around as a threat that could draw forces off. That is the best thing it can do for us at this point.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:24 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually, I think that would be a mistake. We should concentrate everything we have for the decisive push.

Let the boat float around as a threat that could draw forces off. That is the best thing it can do for us at this point.

What makes you think that?

We can land on the iron in 3 turns. Considering we don't plan on attacking Catchopolis for 8 turns the turns of iron-less-ness will mean fewer Pikes that we'll see in Catchopolis no matter what - they will either have to defend the iron and prevent us from disconnecting it again or they won't defend it and they will be unable to continue building more Pikes in Catchopolis and other cities.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:36
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Whatever is sent cannot make it back in time to help at Catchopolis.

What would you want to do without when that battle goes down?

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:41 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Considering the fact that it will likely take 2 MIs to take down 1 Pike in Catchopolis even if we tie down 1 GCA Spear or Pike it's a good exchange. If they have to commit even more then we come out even more in the green.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:44
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It depends on the ability of our units sent to tie up their units; or to even destroy some of their units from a defensive postion; or the ability to deny them Iron for a certain period. I think all of those outweigh the benefits of having one NM and one MI with our attacking force on Catchopolis. For every Pike that GCA has to put on the Iron, that is one less in Catch. Is one of our MI's outside of Catch equal to one of their Pikes inside of it? I'd say the Pike has the advantage there. So, if we draw out the Pike towards the Iron, then mission accomplished. How would we feel if we sent the Galley down there and GCA did nothing to cover the Iron and we had no units in the Galley?

I think it is a very good move.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:47
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We land, they send horse from Catch to kill us. This time we will not be forted. And any wounded horse sent can get back and heal before we move. Do you think trading 2 MIs for 2 horse is a good trade?

I do not think it is a good idea.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 11:51 Visit Trip's homepage!
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We wouldn't send 2 MI. We'd send an MI and an NM. The NM would have defense of 6 on the mountain (6.75 after being fortified). Even an elite Horse has only an EIGHT percent chance of victory. Even on the hills we have a defense of 4.5 (5.25 fortified) which gives them a 21 (15) percent chance of victory over our NM.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 12:00
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We won't be forted, and they will have 6 horse to kill us with.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
time: 22:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 12:00
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and we don't have a 4/4 merc in position to send.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
  Old Post 29-10-2003 12:30
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Don't units heal on Galleys? We could send an injured one....

 
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