06-10-2003 23:10									#151
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Just to note: City walls have no effect on the capital as it is already consided a level 2 city with respect to defensive bonuses.

According the the game itself, yes this is true. But, if you run simulations you will see that there's a bug in the game that still adds a 50% bonus for Walls to cities even after they grow to size 7. The city get's both bonuses.

	07-10-2003 02:05									#152
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BF - the readme for version 1.21f says that:

quote: Fixed bug which caused walls not to be obsoleted by growing from a town to a city.

Depending on how the game views a capital - whether it sees it automatically as the next step up ie city then metropolis (not town, then city, then metropolis) or not, then this bug is fixed.

Have there been tests done on versions later than v1.21f that prove otherwise? If so I would encourage someone to correct me.

	07-10-2003 12:36									#153
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I don't know what are our cities building now, but with the recent events (GCA possibly building the GL and getting pikemen in a few turns) I think we should switch our war production entirely on MIs, NMs and catapuls (especially MIs). We are not going to kill any pikeman with horses, and we will lose tremendous quantities of MIs during the assault on the CGA cities.

Also, do we plan building a fort on the hill where AGA+B are sitting now? It would have nice to use it as gathering place for new units, a safe refuge for retreating wounded units and also to push back the border. But I haven't seen any settlers prepared for this.

Last edited by Tiberius on 07-10-2003 at 13:08

	07-10-2003 17:19									#154
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True, but they have no iron....

	07-10-2003 17:27									#155
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Dun'n Anarchy is already in place. How long until they reconnect the iron?

	07-10-2003 19:55									#156
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Catchopolis is a city on a hills tile with city walls. If they get pikemen, it's going to be hell laying siege to that thing. I agree with Tiberius that medieval infantry, Numidian Mercs (to cover our stack), and catapults are going to rule the day.

My personal suggestion would be the more cats, the better. If we can get enough cats to reduce units to 3/4 hp, that improves our chanes with MI quite a bit. If we can build enough cats to reduce them to 2/4 each, we actually improve the odds enough that we shouldn't lose to many MI taking the city.

What I want to do is do something of a cost-benefit analysis... assuming a GCA on a hill with city walls defended by pikemen, (on average) how cost effective are catapults versus additional medieval infantry for different amounts of each?

	07-10-2003 22:22									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Dun'n Anarchy is already in place. How long until they reconnect the iron?

They can reconnect it in 12 turns from last turn with 1 Worker. 6 if they use 2 Workers.

Edited for the fact that they don't have industrious Workers.

	07-10-2003 22:34									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They can reconnect it in 6 turns from last turn with 1 Worker. 3 if they use 2 Workers.

Can you build a colony on something that's already in your territory but not roaded? I've never tried that.

	08-10-2003 01:14									#159
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Nope.

	08-10-2003 01:22									#160
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We basically have 2 options that I would like to look into.

We can either take Algalord ASAP, or consolidate our forces with 5 MIs, 5 Horsemen and 4 NMs within the next couple turns.

The problem with waiting is obviously that we lose a bit of time. If we don't wait then we're 14 units short in heading south and when those units do start heading south we won't have the NMs to cover them (if we wait 1 turn but not 2), leaving them open to attack.

	08-10-2003 06:14									#161
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Their GL gambit pushes the issue a bit. We must do all we can to stop them getting Iron hooked up, so we must push as hard and fast as possible. Unless they keep abandoning all the way to Catchopolis, there will be times the stack slows down to assault or manoeuvre for position. With roads most of the way dopwn so far, the NMs and MIs currently in transit should be able to catch up whilst/soon after we engage at Algalord (unless they abandon this too).

If we get there and deny them Iron we will ahve won, and even if we feel that we need more troops in place before attacking, we surely have enough now to protect the Iron until the reinforcements arrive. If we get there and find the Iron has been hooked up, waiting a few more turns for reinforcements will make little difference, and the whole time we can pillage what they have.

And we may not face all of 8 Pikes in Catchopolis at once - surely they will want to protect at least one Iron source as well? If not, then we will win the war of attrition - even with 8 Pikes, if they cannot build more we will eventually wear them down.

	08-10-2003 07:09									#162
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Does CFC have engineering?

If so, it will help CDG a bit, transferring units across their 2 minor rivers.

	08-10-2003 07:30									#163
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Does CFC have engineering? If so, it will help CDG a bit, transferring units across their 2 minor rivers.

I'm pretty sure you mean GCA and not CDG.

CFC does not yet have Engineering, but GWT does. This means when GCA and GWT get contact in a few turns then GCA will get Engineering as well from them.

	08-10-2003 07:35									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I'm pretty sure you mean GCA and not CDG. CFC does not yet have Engineering, but GWT does. This means when GCA and GWT get contact in a few turns then GCA will get Engineering as well from them.

Uh, yes, I can't keep these acronyms straight

	08-10-2003 22:00									#165
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Their GL gambit pushes the issue a bit. We must do all we can to stop them getting Iron hooked up, so we must push as hard and fast as possible. Unless they keep abandoning all the way to Catchopolis, there will be times the stack slows down to assault or manoeuvre for position. With roads most of the way dopwn so far, the NMs and MIs currently in transit should be able to catch up whilst/soon after we engage at Algalord (unless they abandon this too). If we get there and deny them Iron we will ahve won, and even if we feel that we need more troops in place before attacking, we surely have enough now to protect the Iron until the reinforcements arrive. If we get there and find the Iron has been hooked up, waiting a few more turns for reinforcements will make little difference, and the whole time we can pillage what they have. And we may not face all of 8 Pikes in Catchopolis at once - surely they will want to protect at least one Iron source as well? If not, then we will win the war of attrition - even with 8 Pikes, if they cannot build more we will eventually wear them down.

I don't see how we can deny them iron. They have 3 sources and should have at least 1 of them connected fairly soon. They could have the one near Soda connected next turn for all we know.

But all of what you posted doesn't really help us now.

A decision must be made this coming turn. We can either press forward to Algalord with AGA+AGB (13 MI, 6 NM, 5 Cat) or we can wait for AGC and AGD (7 MI, 4 NM, 5 Horse, 1-2 Cat) before starting to move again.

If we move AGA/B this coming turn then we should have AGC and AGD merge so that the coming MIs and Horses have an NM escort.

	08-10-2003 22:22									#166
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I think we should press onwards with AGA/B. Especially if GCA did build the GLibrary. They wont get any Techs this turn from it. They will get the Ancient times techs next turn. Then the Middle Ages Tech's the next after that. GCA has too many possible Iron sources for us to try and take them all out. We need to not dawdle and march right towards Algalord and make them react now with their Spears/Swords/Horses rather than let them get to Pikes/MI's.

We will still have the production advantage, but I want to take advantage of the more advanced unit advantage we have right now for as long possible. If we can get CFC to advance towards GCA's border's in the West then CFC can report the number of units to us adn that along with the strength analysis of GCA compared t CFC and then ours compared to GCA, we can get a very solid picture of what they have available.

I do not want this assault to stall out and give them time to recoup. If they disband Algalord on our advance, then we will have won. There would be no possible way gor them to keep up in unit production. I also think that GCA is fearful of our GA and doesn't want to set it off at almost any cost.

	08-10-2003 22:29									#167
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They may very well disband Algalord, but if we attack Catchopolis and fail to take it then they will have effectively "won" because it will take 10-15 turns for us to muster up another army.

The same might possibly happen at Algalord (although on a lesser scale, though I still don't like the idea of going in with only 13 MIs) if they get Pikes. I believe we should move ahead with AGA/B and if they get Pikes there before we can attack the city (and they don't disband it) then we wait for AGC/D to arrive before attacking (like I said, 7 extra MI, 5 Horses, 4 NMs).

Perhaps we should pay CFC to investigate Algalord the turn we move adjacent to it, just to get an idea of what they have there... if they plan on holding the city they will want units with the fortification bonus and they won't expect us to be able to use CFC to see what they have there. If they want to continue running then we won't find much there.

	09-10-2003 08:33									#168
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I concur with Bigfree that we must push on and force them to play their cards in regards to Algalord immediately, but also investigate it with CFC. This will keep CFC happy - they'll be helping out somehow - and will tell us what to expect. If they're going to pay the piper and fight it out at Algalord, we can then wait on AGC. (I think this is likely given the timing of the Library amongst other things.)

If on the other hand Algalord looks empty, we laugh and grin at our now certain eventual victory, march onward to the south and let AGC catch up right before we hit Catchopolis, while we're manuevering to cut the iron.

	09-10-2003 09:52									#169
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We have moved forward with AGA/B. Next turn we will move right next to Algalord. AGA/B currently has 5NMs (they killed one somehow). We saw a Sword army in Alga (which was in disorder) with 6HP (hard to see). However the only thing that can attack us this turn and not expose themselves are Horsemen in Alga or any Horses 7 7 4 of Alga.

Some of the builds have been changed to NMs rather than more Horsemen. This needs to be discussed further, but with NMs being whittled away we need more there and SOON (remember it takes 5-6 turns for an NM/MI to get from our core to the current front and only 3 turns for a Horse) to protect our real winners - the MIs. If we build NMs and send them towards the front, a 10spt city like Ming or Poly can build a Horse and have it at the front at the same time as when the MI/NM arrives.

This is increasingly looking like it will shortly be siege warfare. We need several things for siege warfare - loads of cover (NMs), siege weapons (Cats) and Infantry to take on the defenders reeling from the bombardment. We have 23 MIs either there or en route to the front - a large number that we need not go out of our way to increase at the expense of badly needed NMs. I would hope we can keep our forces at about this number of MIs, get to 15 or so NMs and keep adding Cats for the sieges to come. Horses may be useful at times, and are of course good for the eventual upgrade, but we have 5 Horsemen ATM and 2 more being built. What reason do we currently have for more of these now? The important things is smashing GCA as fast as we can to prevent them settling in. Horses will be no use in a siege like we may face.

	09-10-2003 13:47									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon ...investigate it with CFC. This will keep CFC happy - they'll be helping out somehow

You're suggesting to keep CFC happy by letting them pay for the info they're sharing with us? Great diplomacy !

	09-10-2003 14:57									#171
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Now that is exactly the sort of bedevilment we pay the FAM for.

	09-10-2003 15:23									#172
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Speaking of FAM, what about putting more diplomatic pressure on CFC to decalre was on CGA after the investigation?

	09-10-2003 17:49									#173
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I think that would be most unwise- CFC's investigation potential is far more useful than their...uh... "3 pike army."

::snicker::

	09-10-2003 18:01									#174
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Speaking of FAM, what about putting more diplomatic pressure on CFC to decalre was on CGA after the investigation?

I think it's clear that CFC is on our side.

Furthermore, given our hesitation to offer aid when GCA was beating CFC down, it would be rather hypocritical of us to expect CFC to rush to join the battle now.


Dominae

	09-10-2003 22:19									#175
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It makes all the more likely that we will be keeping the Cities that are West of BoP. If they take them, then we can't say anything about it, but if we take them, are we really going to just hand them over to them?? I wouldn't.

E_T

	10-10-2003 00:20									#176
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GCA would be wise to declare war on CFC. It is very foolish of them not to do it.

I wonder if GWT or CGN will ask us to spy on the other? A little profit can be made doing so.

	10-10-2003 02:39									#177
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Or potentially:

I wonder if GCA will be asking anyone to do some spying on US. Who is capable of that right now? Just Webring?

	10-10-2003 02:52									#178
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It wouldn't do GCA much good to know what we have in our cities unless they were going to attack one of them. For GCA to build Galley's and send them towards us would be folly. By the time the got to us, Catchopolis would fall and most like BoP as well.

	10-10-2003 03:14									#179
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That reminds me of a few things brought up in chat about the threat of GCA Galleys once they get MM next turn (from the GL). There are several ways Galleys can get at us: from the East coast from a city like Server Fire (unlikely since it's small) - in which case Expedition would sight the Galley with several turns warning; in the inland sea along the East - in which case WWNN will be able to see it with several turns warning, if positioned properly on the coast; or along the west coast of the inland sea. There is a way they could do this so that CFC would not see them, and they could reach Equilibrium undetected until the turn they unload. Thus from about 5-6 turns from now (assuming either a pre-build or a cash-rush, both unlikely), Equilibrium and the Silks could be at risk.

I doubt the seriousness of this threat, but we should keep it in mind as progress continues, or stalls. They may decide such a rash manoeuvre would be worth it, to cause us trouble. They are razing and giving us as much trouble as they can now, and there is no reason to expect them not to continue.

	10-10-2003 04:00									#180
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Next turn, the Expedition will be in a positon to offload the Slave and it can even load up 2 units. How about we load 1 NM and 1 MI and send them to land at Algalord 2. They would block the route into the city, delaying any reinforements and maybe delay a quick evac of the city, too.

This also might prevent them from razing that one road tile.

E_T